Ba'al vs. Bel

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
And then you work in where does LILith come in...

Or Belial... Baalzebub...

I read that LILith is NinLIL, the LIL form is appended with the hebrew suffix

Belial, I think that's Bel isn't it?

Baalzebub, same guy as Baal, but with the added "zebub" . Baal is lord and zebub is of "things that fly" or "flying things" (there's a couple others)

[edit on 23-4-2007 by undo]

How can you use a site like The stargates.com to try and translate/dechiper the meaning of words used by an ancient civilisation?

I could just as well make my own translation and say its the real deal.

And as to Cthulhu, are you now to going to say that what Lovecraft wrote is based on reality?

As to Michael Heiser: born again christians talk a great deal of balony.Trust me as i deal with them on a daily basis

Michael S. Heiser attends a reformed church and is solidly evangelical. He likes Old Earth Creationism, but says that the Old Testament can be interpreted as describing a six day creation event. Source

Its a shame that you tend to mix up facts with fiction because the real ancient world is mysterious and intresting enough without having to mix in some alien stargate nonsense.

Originally posted by Fett Pinkus
How can you use a site like The stargates.com to try and translate/dechiper the meaning of words used by an ancient civilisation?

The pics weren't from thestargates.com. i had to save them to my own server, as thestargates.com is MY website. i didn't want to hotlink to them as that is bandwidth theft.

Source for Bel as the Sun God
www.jrbooksonline.com...
Source for Ba'al as the Storm God
www.edwardtbabinski.us...
omygosh it says christian. here's a non-christian one
/2pprfe

As to Michael Heiser: born again christians talk a great deal of balony.Trust me as i deal with them on a daily basis

Its a shame that you tend to mix up facts with fiction because the real ancient world is mysterious and intresting enough without having to mix in some alien stargate nonsense.

What does it matter what his religion is if he knows the languages? Would you prefer I go to someone who doesn't know the languages?

He has an M.A. and Ph.D. in Hebrew Bible and Ancient Semitic Languages from the University of Wisconsin-Madison. He also has an M.A. in Ancient History from the University of Pennsylvania (major fields, Ancient Syria-Palestine and Egyptology), and can do translation work in roughly a dozen ancient languages, among them Biblical Hebrew, Biblical Greek, Aramaic, Syriac, Egyptian hieroglyphs, Phoenician, Moabite and Ugaritic cuneiform. He also studied Akkadian and Sumerian, independently.

Pretty impressive resume', and you just toss it out the window because the guy's religion doesn't agree with your own? Man you live in a very tiny world. egads, who knows maybe you've eaten food grown by a christian too. oh the horror .

Dr. Michael S. Heiser
www.michaelsheiser.com...

And for some very interesting biblical research
www.thedivinecouncil.com...

[edit on 24-4-2007 by undo]

[edit on 24-4-2007 by undo]

Rather than focusing on the full structure of Ba-al as used in Phoenician or other Semitic or Sumerian tongues, one might try for a still more primitive usage focusing instead on the parts of the term. "Ba" meant "father" in a number of primitive dialects. "A" might mean "without" (as in "asymmetry) or also might mean "toward," a sort of opposite meaning. The letter "l" often is seen in words indicating "location," as in, perhaps, "Berlin," "Dublin," "ul," other similar examples.

Afterthought: One might try to relate this to another possibly-analogous name, "Abel."

Originally posted by michaelanteski
Afterthought: One might try to relate this to another possibly-analogous name, "Abel."

Yes, I have considered that as well. I had a theory at one point that Cain and Abel were a mirror of Enki and Enlil, as Enki was a agricultural god in the flood plain of the Euphrates where he built canals to water the crops, and Enlil's temple was in the foothills of a nearby mountain range, which would be conducive to raising certain types of livestock (cooler temps, for example). I'm not entirely sure though, as it is hard to tell if Abel was simply one of the people who lived in the area OR if he was actually the original Enlil, and that somewhere along the line, someone had deified him. Same for Cain.

I should add, I no longer believe that as I've since had time to study the sumerian-akkadian texts and artifacts, and it appears Enki and Enlil were not quite human.

[edit on 24-4-2007 by undo]

Undo:
Look into what I was talking about.
Even though most people consider Lovecraft's Mythos to be entirely fictional, what is interesting is the struggle between the "Olde Ones" and the "Elder Gods"
In addition it has been noted that some of the fictional places by Lovecraft, such as the location of R'leyh have recently shown odd things.
Bloop
Much of the Lovecraftian Mythos centers around Ancient Interdimentional Beings
/extraterrestrials that were long ago worshipped as dieties.
Investigate into all of that, it may help you along your path.
It is an entertaining subject and good reading if nothing else

Originally posted by WhiteWash
Undo:
Look into what I was talking about.
Even though most people consider Lovecraft's Mythos to be entirely fictional, what is interesting is the struggle between the "Olde Ones" and the "Elder Gods"
In addition it has been noted that some of the fictional places by Lovecraft, such as the location of R'leyh have recently shown odd things.
Bloop
Much of the Lovecraftian Mythos centers around Ancient Interdimentional Beings
/extraterrestrials that were long ago worshipped as dieties.
Investigate into all of that, it may help you along your path.
It is an entertaining subject and good reading if nothing else

Well that was certainly interesting (Bloop, that is).
If you've read Heiser's work on "Elohim" you will notice that he says that all spirits are called elohim, that it wasn't an attribute of anything but to describe the plane of existence they were located on. And although some could or would eventually be able to take on physical bodies at will, that they are from the spirit realm. I found this fascinating as it relates to the topic of the "gods" and God in particular. It diffuses alot of presumptions that EL as the singular Elohim was specific to only Yahweh. Not true. I think that pretty much takes care of all my questions regarding Baal, Bel, Allah, EL and so on. Heiser has proven to me, sufficiently, that the texts mean to say these are spirits, divine beings, even the dearly departed humans become elohim (spirits). Ha, what an elegant solution. And here I was straining at the bit over these word variations.

So when in Genesis 1 it refers to Elohim in the royal we, it is literally spirits talking to each other, with one in particular acting as spokesman. And that one in particular we learn is YHWH, specifically, but who is obviously in the company of other elohim (divine beings or spirit beings). So simple.

Baal, Bel and so on, are then relegated to the realm of elohim. They were each an EL, in that they were all elohim (usually shown diminutively in english to denote lesser, but which is designated in hebrew by other markers scholars of the language recognize).

Originally posted by undo

Originally posted by Fett Pinkus
How can you use a site like The stargates.com to try and translate/dechiper the meaning of words used by an ancient civilisation?

The pics weren't from thestargates.com. i had to save them to my own server, as thestargates.com is MY website. i didn't want to hotlink to them as that is bandwidth theft.

Source for Bel as the Sun God
www.jrbooksonline.com...
Source for Ba'al as the Storm God
www.edwardtbabinski.us...
omygosh it says christian. here's a non-christian one

/2pprfe

As to Michael Heiser: born again christians talk a great deal of balony.Trust me as i deal with them on a daily basis

Its a shame that you tend to mix up facts with fiction because the real ancient world is mysterious and intresting enough without having to mix in some alien stargate nonsense.

What does it matter what his religion is if he knows the languages? Would you prefer I go to someone who doesn't know the languages?

He has an M.A. and Ph.D. in Hebrew Bible and Ancient Semitic Languages from the University of Wisconsin-Madison. He also has an M.A. in Ancient History from the University of Pennsylvania (major fields, Ancient Syria-Palestine and Egyptology), and can do translation work in roughly a dozen ancient languages, among them Biblical Hebrew, Biblical Greek, Aramaic, Syriac, Egyptian hieroglyphs, Phoenician, Moabite and Ugaritic cuneiform. He also studied Akkadian and Sumerian, independently.

Pretty impressive resume', and you just toss it out the window because the guy's religion doesn't agree with your own? Man you live in a very tiny world. egads, who knows maybe you've eaten food grown by a christian too. oh the horror .

Dr. Michael S. Heiser
www.michaelsheiser.com...

And for some very interesting biblical research
www.thedivinecouncil.com...

[edit on 24-4-2007 by undo]

[edit on 24-4-2007 by undo]

Yeah I agree with you. He didn't try and convert you with his answers. He wasn't pushing an agenda. You got to love people on here. He dug that information up to try to discredit all this work you been putting in to this. Keep up the good work.

Okay... I had a look at your sources and I think you should consider some better sources.

Source for Bel as the Sun God
www.jrbooksonline.com...
Source for Ba'al as the Storm God
www.edwardtbabinski.us...
omygosh it says christian. here's a non-christian one

/2pprfe

The first one begins with an outright racist fiction (no, the Celts/Brits are very provably not Phoenecian) and goes downhill from there. It's a type of nationalistic literature where someone takes snippets of facts, fakes a few items, and takes wild leaps to prove a certain nation is the Rightful Inheritor of ancient secrets/traditions/wealth/knowledge/Other Famous Nations. The "Ta Tephi princess" in Ireland is one such fiction.

The second one's not bad if you stick to what it says before it starts making conclusions. It doesn't go quite far enough, but the material available is far more than you can fit on a web page.

May I suggest a quick look at the Wikipedia article (more accurate):
en.wikipedia.org...(mythology)

And this brief article:
www.nationmaster.com...(god)
It says (an interesting point):

Early translators of Akkadian believed that the ideogram for the god called in Sumerian Enlil was to be read as Bel in Akkadian. This is now known to be incorrect; but one finds Bel used in referring to Enlil in older translations and discussions.

...so the scholars made an assumption based on some very small amounts of material and it was proven wrong later.

Here's a neat paper that you may really enjoy, showing the conflict between the religions of Yahweh and Baal and how some of the Biblical polemics directly attack Baal (Bel) the Storm God, showing that Yahweh controls storms and storm imagery... not Baal:
farms.byu.edu...

I'm not ENTIRELY convinced by it, but it's a pretty interesting read and really highlights what happens when religious ideas of deities come into conflict.

Byrd

You're arguing the wrong case, not sure if you're confused with my other thread or what. but the point of the images i posted in this thread is to show that the 2 examples were depicted as different elemental gods - one of the sun and the other of storms. i didn't read the rest of the sites, because i was purely interested in depictions of the gods in question.