Remembering Horror...

An overview.

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A bit more information

These are names that should bring on nightmares even now, more than sixty years later.

Treblinka. Chelmno. Belzec. Sobibor. Majdanek. Auschwitz. To name only a few of the places where a policy of extermination was carried out at the behest of the Nazi gov't. These, and others, were generally constructed on major railway links in order to facilitate the movement of prisoners.

A Short History of the Operations.

Chelmno. The first death camp. Near Lodz, Poland. Between Dec. 1941, and Spring 1943, it is estimated that over 200,000 Polish Jews and tens of thousand of Soviet Prisoners of War, and Gypsies were murdered there, using trucks converted into gas chambers.

Belzec. The second death camp. Near Lublin, Poland. Between March 1942 and May 1943, approximately 500,ooo Jews were exterminated by carbon-monoxide.

Soibibor. Also near Lublin, Poland. Between May 1942, and October 1943, saw the murder of 250,000 Jews from all parts of Europe, along with an unknown number of non-Jewish prisoners of war and civilians in the more sophisticated gas chambers disguised as shower and disinfection stateions.

Treblinka. Near Warsaw, Poland. This camp "serviced" the Jews of Warsaw amongst others. Between July 1942 and August 1943 upwards of 800,000 Jews were murdered.

These four camps had no other function than to kill their inmates. There was no possibility of surviving as slave labourers, and all Jews were murdered virtually upon arrival. The only ones who didn't were those the Nazi's needed to perform the gruesometasks associated with the deception of, the murder of , disposal of, the soon to be dead, the dead, and their personal belongings.

Majdanek. Near Lublin, Poland. This camp was a combination concentration/extermination camp. During 1942 and 1943 130,ooo Jews perished here.

Auschwitz I/Auschwitz II (Birkenau)/Auschwitz III (Buna). All were located in SW Poland. Auschwitz was a combination, or complex, of camps combining the functions of internment, concertration, and extermination. Auschwitz I was a "normal" concentration camp. Auschwitz II, known as Birkenau, was the most extensive and ambitious, not to mention notorious; of all the death camps. Auschwitz III, also known as Buna, was a huge labour camp which serviced the German war economy. The death toll in these 3 camps alone is estimated to have run upwards of one and q quarter million. The Jews slaughtered at Birkenau, came from all over Europe: Holland, Greece, Germany, Poland, Russia, France, Belgium, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Norway, Austria, Slovakia, Croatia, Italy, and Yugoslavia. Most of these deportees, soon to be victims, were unawaare of the fate that awaited them as they were herded into cattlecars and deprived of air, food and water on the horrific trip to the version of Hell awaiting them. Many, many died of suffocation and dehydration.

Immediately upon arrival at Birkenau, the jajority were tricked into taking "showers", or were driven by whips, dogs, and bullets into the chambers, once naked inside these rooms, the doors were shut, bolted, and then hydrogen-cyanide gas (zyclon-B) was introduced into the rooms, murdering the people inside.

It will probably never be known exactly how many died during the Holocaust and the years leading up to it, Not just Jews, though they were the primary targets; Soviet prisoners of war, Gypsies, the mentally and qhysically handicapped, percieved enemies of the Nazi Regime. All of them were deemed undesirable by Hitler and his cadre of criminal. Not just the Death Camps, or the Concentration Camps, but Einsatzgruppen (SS mobile killing squads)in and around the Eastern Front. The quisling gov'ts in occupied Europe, and countries which carried out their own pogroms, the Vichey French, Austria, Bulgaria, Hungary, and others.

When all is said and done, counting is pointless and ultimately meaningless, I'm not hoing to arguenumbers. Any number I trot out, or others trot out are probably wrong.

The fact that something this ugly and horrific was allowed to happen is a blot on the soul of mankind, and speaks to the darkest parts of our souls.

There are, of course, other episodes that speak to that darkness to the same degree. The Turkish genocidal war against Armenians. The genocidal warfare against native americans from 1492 on through the end of the 19th century. Slavery in all it's forms. The ongoing genocidal conflict in Darfur and other places in Aftica.

But none of these, as horrific as they were, or are, speak to the evil that man is capable of quite as much as the Holocaust.

I wrote this in remembrance of a young lady whose granddaughter never met her. Knowing her granddaughter though, she must have been a wonderful person. I don't know her name, probably never will, since Abby her granddaughter passed several years ago. But I remember her.

This blight on the world's history should never be forgotten so as to ensure it is never repeated. We must also look deep within our own hearts to find compassion for the victims of this atrocity whether they be Jewish, handicapped or any of the many groups the Nazi's considered sub-human and to ensure that our actions today donot contribute to the continued hate many people seems to feel for people different then them.

Good job Seagull please accept my way above vote.

sorry double post

[edit on 17-4-2007 by gallopinghordes]

GREAT POST Seagull,

Sadly there are forces at work that are making it a life's work to convince the world that this never happened...

When I first heard about this I actually laughed. Then I started to think about all of the members here that are arguably in the top percentile of intellect and all the absolute foolishness they post about Bush, The Police and Current events. I then realized how easy it would be to make the general public think that the Jews never suffered, that it was all propaganda and once again, the Muslim's are the victims.
It takes courageous people like you Seagull. that continue to remind us of the absolute evil that men can do...

Keep up the good work...

Semper

Not to steal your thunder Seagull, but I have already done this.

However, I applaud you for bringing The Holocaust to public viewing again.

As many people as possible, should keep bringing up this terrible subject.

In my mind, it should be kept in the public domain as fresh as the day that Nazi Germany embarked on its evil quest for world supremacy.

The Germans must never, ever be allowed to forget what their leader and government did in their name and on their behalf.

Semper and fritz. That was precisely the point of the thread. To keep the memory of the horrors alive. I've known, at various times in my life, several survivors of the Holocaust. It's a very personal issue for me.

fritz. Point me in the direction of your thread. I'd like to read it.

[edit on 27-4-2007 by seagull]

There are, of course, other episodes that speak to that darkness to the same degree. The Turkish genocidal war against Armenians. The genocidal warfare against native americans from 1492 on through the end of the 19th century. Slavery in all it's forms. The ongoing genocidal conflict in Darfur and other places in Aftica.

But none of these, as horrific as they were, or are, speak to the evil that man is capable of quite as much as the Holocaust.

Why?

How is one genocide more evil then the other? I'm just interested in your criteria in evaluating such things.

Personally, I think saying it's 'the worst' is where all the trouble starts with holocaust threads. Politically correct? maybe.

Hal, if you knew Seagull as well as I do you would never ever accuse him of being PC. Trust me on this I've known him all his life. Deciding which is worse is a judgement call. I can tell you that Holocaust deniers are the group that most needs to read this thread and read the research that Seagull has done; his goal is to ensure that this is never forgotten or consigned to the back of a history book. Remember the saying about not learning from history? Further he never denied that the other atrocities listed were not horrific.

My take on Seagulls OP is clear and I agree with him 100%.

The other atrocities he mentions can be categorized in reference to human nature and whatever specific need was being pursued.
The genocide of the Jews was the result of one mans prejudice and desire to see a people wiped out.

No specific need was being addressed such as:

Desire for Land
Religious Preference
ETC

The Holocaust was the end result of a megalomaniac's desires and the propensity for humans to be led to the brinks of their own sanity.

Semper

Where I do disagree with Seagull, is the use of the word Holocaust.

The atrocities committed in Rwanda where some 800,000 people were brutally murdered in three months, see

news.bbc.co.uk...

or the ethnic cleansing of Muslims, Croats and Serbs by various factions in the former Yugoslavia, see

balkansnet.org...

the ethnic cleansing in Darfur , see

www.d-a.org.uk...

or even the atrocities of Sierra Leone, see

www.thirdworldtraveler.com...

cannot in any way, be likened to the events that took place in Nazi Germany or Occupied Europe during the Second World War.

Whilst there were many similarities between the rounding up of villagers in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo and the herding of the Jews from the ghettos of Poland, it is here that such coincidencies end.

Nowhere in the post WWII world, do we see columns of men, women and children driven to their deaths in cattle trucks on trains, to extermination camps where they are forced to strip naked, formed in to queues and marched off to gas chambers, in their thousands.

Shocking though these modern atrocities are, compared to The Holocaust committed against the Jewry of Europe, the almost total elimination of Romany gypsies, the mentally and physically ill, the old and weak and those who the Nazi regime just took a dislike to, these acts are just insignificant and meaningless.

Great Point Fritz....

And well exemplified..

Semper

Fritz. You may be misinterpreting what I said, or perhaps I misspoke myself (it would hardly be the first time).

When I refered to those other events, such as Rwanda, ethnic cleansings, etc..., it was only to point out that there were, and are other dark events that shadow the souls of mankind. THE Holocaust, is the genocide against the Jews and others during WWII, a holocaust is every other event. I hope that explains what I meant, not neccessarily what I said. If not, I will be more than happy to attempt to again. This is one subject that I will not be misunderstood about, no matter how long it takes...

(This is truely annoying...I am Seagull, not Gallopinghordes....)

[edit on 29-4-2007 by gallopinghordes]

Are you having an identity crisis?

Seagull is Gallopinghordes is Seagull..........


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Just kidding now....


Semper

It does seem that way lately doesn't it? Sharing a computer sucks. I forget to change over to mine and hey presto...

This is me, by the bye, I'll leave it to you to guess which me I'm refering to. .

Originally posted by seagull
Semper and fritz. That was precisely the point of the thread. To keep the memory of the horrors alive. I've known, at various times in my life, several survivors of the Holocaust. It's a very personal issue for me.

fritz. Point me in the direction of your thread. I'd like to read it.

[edit on 27-4-2007 by seagull]

Sorry it's taken so long Seagull, but there were hundreds of threads to check and my posted reply to wade through.

Herewith the link to my details about the camps etc:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Please read and post your comments.

As much as I would hope it would help it just dosn't. We still have genocide today, and where is everyone coming to the rescue? Darfur is getting ravaged, not one country is helping, just a few UN volunteers. Hell, Isreal is locking up the refugee's who are trying to escape Darfur in Isreal, these are the same people who were involved in the holocaust.

Lets not forget Rwanda either...

How about actually trying to prevent it rather then rehashing what has been said over and over. Take action and do something, it's funny how the people who speak out against genocide really don't do much to really do something when its happening now. I would think Isreal who says they want to prevent another genocide are locking up refugee's.

It's harsh words, but no one will actually say it when it needs to be said. The least you can do is become a member of SaveDarfur.org and particapate to help stop a genocide that is happening today.

-Reform America

Edit: Spelling and grammar

[edit on 15-5-2007 by Reform America]

Sorry it took so long to respond, Reform.

Yes the genocides are still very much with us, and no we, as a group, humans don't seem to learn anything except the hard way. Darfur is a prime example of this.

Having said this, where Darfur and earlier Rwanda, not to mention all of the others, differ from the Holocaust is this. At heart, these are civil wars and tribal conflicts at heart. Horrible, yes; but different...

The Holocaust was gov't. policy against those deemed a danger to the state, and carried out with all the efficiency that a modern state can bring to the matter. Jews, Gypsies, the mentally handicapped, homosexuals, etc... were consciously targeted for extermination.

Unfortunately, a nations willingness to help stop this sort of thing is directly proportional to what its interests are... If it were up to me, NATO troops would be on the ground at least trying to stop the bloodshed.

America's high sounding ideals do sound like so much noise when we aren't willing to help where its truely needed. In that we agree...

Semantic maybe, but there is to me a not so subtle difference. It doesn't make it any more or less horrible, but different. Does this help any?

I do so agree Seagull. What a pity we have somebody who appears to be an American, telling the rest of the world to put it's house in order.

Before you shout or rant at others Reform America, perhaps you could rant at your government for not rebuilding New Orleans.

After all, charity begins at home.

Reform. I've put my money where my mouth is for many years now. I've donated time and money to various causes since I developed social awareness. I've been donating time and money for nearly 35 years now, can you say the same?

Recently I've been a little reluctant to donate much in the way of money because of the rampant corruption in so many of these organizations. When I find a worthy cause that I can trust to give the money and other things to the people that need it I donate what I can afford.

For you to come along and castigate me is a little bit out of line as you don't know me anymore than I know you. But this thread isn't about me or you, its about remembering the horrors of the past and what if anything can be done to prevent it, or at least minimize the damage.

Seagull it wasn't directed at you in anyway, it was more directed at the goverments who pay money to remeber genocides to prevent them. I'm sorry if you felt I was directing it at you in anyway.

Fritz, its sounds kind of like people outside of America have a double standard. You complain that I'm telling others to fix their problems, and yet others complain when Americans get involved outside of the states. Pick one rather then complain. Are you kidding fritz!? Why do you think my name is REFORM America? It's not "Keep on Trucking America", there are many problems with America, thats why my name is REFORM America. The topic was about genocide, not Hurricane Katrina. If there was a post about New Orleans and I felt the need to post I would have posted like I did here. You throw me into the same catagory as Bush for some reason, do you truly think that all Americans are the same? Fritz just so you know, I went down to New Orleans and helped clean up as much as possible before I had to return home.

-Reform America

Edit: Spelling

[edit on 17-5-2007 by Reform America]