Billy Meier UFO Contact Hoax: Discussion

C’mon John – you’re kidding right? You really need this? I wasn’t picking on you at all – I’m actually surprised you took offense and chose a defensive posture. Are you admitting guilt in the matter?

*sigh* My very humble apologies for slightly diverting from topic – just trying to answer Mr. Lear’s question…

“Mud slinging”: A smear campaign that is an intentional, premeditated effort to undermine an individual's or group's reputation, credibility, and character. "Mud slinging", like negative campaigning, most often targets government officials, politicians, other public figures, or those claiming to be an authority of sorts. However, private persons or groups may also become targets of smear campaigns perpetrated in schools, companies, institutions, families, and other social groups (such as ATS and similar on-line forums).

Mud-slinging or smear tactics differ from normal discourse or debate in that they do not bear upon the issues or arguments in question. A smear is a simple attempt to malign a group or an individual and to attempt to undermine their credibility.

Smears often consist of unverifiable rumors and are often distortions, half-truths, or even outright lies; smear campaigns are often propagated by gossip spreading. Even when the facts behind a smear are shown to lack proper foundation, the tactic is often effective because the target's reputation is tarnished before the truth is known. You asked for ATS examples from this thread, John: here’s just a few from the last few pages (the 20’s and 30’s, especially around the Michael12 segments had many more):

But the rest of the world reserves the right to consensually call you gullible at best, or lock you up as a delusional nut, at worst.

No, these photos are not fake. They are the real thing. What is fake is the methods [you] used to try and prove they're faked.

Thats nice, insult me and turn the conversation away from my points.... That's really funny considering you did it right after you got upset for being compared to Mikey Horn.

You[r] opinions and posts, lacking substance, merit and/or foundation…

Even a 6 year old would see the things in these photos and not believe they were real.

And just on a personal note, you better check your own mind when you think you know me well enough to suggest what I do with my personal life. Way over the line.

And there you have it. I guess you simply couldn't resist whoring out your credibility and reputation, and declaring yourself a representative for a phenomena and cult…

Grow up and amount to something.

It's embarrassing to see you get up again and again and spout. Just in case you don't know, no one is reading through the posts any more. Another 4,000 character nonsense post. They are largely unread. You have no expertise. It has become a three ring circus, and you are the entertainment.

Mud-slinging, or smears, are also effective in diverting attention away from the matter in question and onto the individual or group. The target of the smear is typically forced to defend his reputation rather than focus on the previous issue.

Smear tactics are considered by many to be a low, disingenuous form of discourse; they are nevertheless very common.

ATS threads often dissolve into personality conflicts utilizing smear tactics when evidence presented runs thin or has already been exhaustively beaten up by both sides of the argument.

Many of us have resorted to slinging a little mud (yup, myself included) when we’ve become frustrated with the progress, or lack thereof, that a line of inquiry has taken. It is a problem we share partly because we are limited to validly arguing with each other via the rather limited medium of keystrokes exclusively.

Yet, as we approach 50 pages of this very interesting thread, our choices for discourse remain limited. I for one would like us to all simply make a conscious effort to be as civil and factual as we can, value each other’s opinions, present our position with conviction but at all times display mutual respect. I’m sure that most mods, participants, and observers alike are here primarily to learn, discover, and become enlightened if possible, (and only in minute increments if necessary) about a fascinating topic that clearly deserves our collective attention.

Thanks, all! You’ve all contributed some wonderful material (and opinions!) thus far. Those of us that have been following along pretty much know the score – but that in no way means this matter has been settled to everyone’s satisfaction. Perhaps it never will. Which is why we MUST keep discussing it…

And thus, let us return to the topic at hand…


[edit on 5/17/2007 by Outrageo]

I would like to know, a Quiz for you.

Plejaren allowed Billy to expose what they look like by the drawing of their portraits and allowed him to show them to public.
Why Billy didn't just take pictures of Plejaren (using his 8mm or whatever) instead of drawing portraits of Plejaren?



I read that Billy's case has given CIA or whatever the name is a headache.

1. Billy is a hoax. If a hoax man like Billy could give a headache to American, I can't imagine how many headaches American has taken. Those headaches that put American into situation of sending troops all over the world. War.

2. Billy is a truth. Why can't American stop him, kidnap him, bring him to CIA headquarters or send troops to Switzerland?
No, American can't do that, the Plejaren troop will back Billy and Switzerland up.


Why this Billy give me a headache?

yeah it does seem odd that billy could take pics of the "ship", but not what i will call the Nordics.

its also odd that the gun looks so "cheesy". surely there would be a trigger guard on a "ray-gun"

the picture of the trash can lid, and how it is shaped exactly as is part of the ufo ship really makes this billy meier case hard to believe

the christmas decoration bulbs decorating the top of the ship makes it look ridiculous to me. i think he could have done a better job on the ship ===> eliminate the "bulbs" and grind off the metal tab sticking out of the edge of the garbage can lid.

also, i think the pics of the ship "hanging/clamped/etc." from the tree is over done on meiers part. he shouldn't have taken that many pics with it hanging from the tree, but im sure it was easiest that way.



but i will admit that there is something about this case that tells me that some part of it may be true. maybe its because im reading john lear's reply's, or not, im not sure.

Is Billy Meier still alive???

After having personally dealt with the vitriolic abuse of the again-banned Meier shill (who was banned on The Paracast forum as well, for psychotic posts), I hesitate to even add my voice to this thread. I'll keep this brief.

People can, and will, believe anything, regardless of a miles-high mountain of hard, cold evidence. It's part of the way our brains are wired. It makes life interesting, and often difficult, as belief and reality live on opposing ends of the spectrum. Look up Robert Anton Wilson and Reality Tunnels. The Meierites believe in Meier, and that's their affair. But as far as photographic credibility, this whole case is sorely lacking.

Many of the folks who post on ATS believe in some fringy stuff, and that's fine. I'm a believer in the Church of the SubGenius™ . But knowledge is a different beast, and demands the objective consideration of fact. The facts about the realm of visuals are deeply fascinating to me. Image processing is my main professional field, even though I play in multiple sandboxes. My credentials are widely available.

It's my professional opinion that every one of the Meier images are fabricated, staged. I took apart one such image, but it's easy to prove that any number of them are bogus. The Wedding Cake images are ridiculous. Any trained eye can see it, with minimal effort. I've spent considerable time working and speaking with Jeff Ritzmann regarding these images, I totally concur with his thoughts regarding these photographic and video "evidence" - they are fakes. We've both done subsequent follow up with "expert witnesses" cited by the shill, and found that many folks are not happy to hear that their names are associated with the case. It gets much uglier, but no need to tread in that cesspool. It's fairly distasteful, to say the least.

Jeff was successful in rising to the challenge of duplicating comparable images (not that this proved anything, just that he's a talented craftsman), I debunked a specific image, and both of us subsequently had our names dragged through the mud by the shill.

I won't devote any more time or effort to this thing, it's a dead dog. Any further time spent discussing this silliness is wasted. I just wanted add my voice to Jeff's, and wish that everyone would move on to the study of truly compelling UFO cases.

mister.old.school, your comments regarding the problems with the cited images are correct. Good work.

dB

[edit on 17-5-2007 by davidbiedny]

Originally posted by davidbiedny

I won't devote any more time or effort to this thing

Thank you for your comments David they are greatly appreciated. I bid you farewell and pray that your word is your bond.

Originally posted by johnlear
[
Thank you for your comments David they are greatly appreciated. I bid you farewell and pray that your word is your bond.

Farewell? Unlikely. I will post on ATS as I please. Free speech is a wonderful thing.

Originally posted by davidbiedny


[qote]Farewell? Unlikely. I will post on ATS as I please. Free speech is a wonderful thing.

Oh. Well you said,

"I won't devote anymore time or effort to this thing."

So I thought that meant you weren't going to devote anymore time or effort to this thing meaning the Meier story. So I thought that meant you wouldn't be back with anymore comments as that would constitute "devoting time" to the thread. And I just wanted to thank you for your previous comments and tell you they were appreciated and bid you farewell from this thread. Not from ATS. I don't think anybody thought you were leaving ATS. I don't think anyway. Sorry.

Originally posted by johnlear
There will be no deal until the 'mudslingers' are brought to justice! Your attempt to let the mudslingers off without penalty will not be tolerated. Outrageo its up to you to help us bring these 'mudslingers' to justice.

Alrighty John. You want to bring 'mudslingers' to justice? Great, no really! Billy Meier is a master in this, he says/claims most people beside himself are liars, cheaters and frauds. Sometimes he gets his ET friends in on the 'mudslinging' as well. Sometimes even, people are branded as schizophrenic and delusional or suffering from other mental disorders. Meier and his ET friends have no official medical backgrounds or papers so comments such as these can easily fall in the category of 'mudslinging', right?

Billy: This I know. But this very conversation now taking place between you and me will call many opponents to the fore, accusing us - especially me - of lying, because it could not be that only the contacts between you and me would be in accordance with the facts and truth, whereas everything else is lies, deception, imagination and illusion as well as delusion and so on.

www.figu.org...

Note the last sentence John! From reading the Meier material I know that practically everyone in ufology (who isn't pro-Meier) gets trashed. Phew John, you got your work cut out for you.

P.S.
Do you want more specific quotes of 'mudslinging' in the Meier case?

Originally posted by johnlear
There will be no deal until the 'mudslingers' are brought to justice! Your attempt to let the mudslingers off without penalty will not be tolerated.

Mud and/or attitude slinging in this thread, for your review, Mr. Lear.

Originally posted by johnlear
the total ignorance displayed by most of the posters on this thread

Originally posted by johnlear
we were trying to weed out the less informed

Originally posted by johnlear
Please post a list of real ray guns that you have held and fired and what planet or solar system they came from so we can evaluate your expertise in this matter.

Originally posted by johnlear
I can see how thoroughly you researched the Meier case from your arm chair

Originally posted by johnlear
Holy smokes! Microfilm? Public Library? Wow! I guess you have me beat all to heck!

Originally posted by johnlear
MrPenny, intelligent discussion just doesn't get any better than this.

Originally posted by johnlear
You opinions and posts, lacking substance, merit and/or foundation are welcome nevertheless

Originally posted by johnlear
Then on behalf of all of us on this thread we appreciate your input, bid you farewell

Originally posted by johnlear
Thank you for your comments David they are greatly appreciated. I bid you farewell and pray that your word is your bond

And now we know, you're just playing a game.

Originally posted by johnlear
The pictures were real and the videos were real. They were pictures of real flying saucers

Originally posted by johnlear
All I can say WhiteWash is that there is some very good evidence that has been presented in this thread that the Billy Meiers case is a hoax.

Originally posted by mister.old.school

Originally posted by johnlear
All I can say WhiteWash is that there is some very good evidence that has been presented in this thread that the Billy Meiers case is a hoax.

mister.old.school my actual quote was this:

All I can say WhiteWash is that there is some very good evidence that has been presented in this thread that the Billy Meiers case is a hoax. Do I believe it is a hoax? No. That is my opinion and thats all it is. An opinion.

Now mister.old.school, my question is: "Who is playing games?"

Originally posted by johnlear

mister.old.school my actual quote was this:

Now mister.old.school, my question is: "Who is playing games?"

Don't hate the player John, hate the game.

Seems you're not the only one who can play the "quote out of context" game. In fact I believe you've been called on that several times in this thread already when quoting certain experts to "make your case" and have yet to acknowlege it. Capiche?

Originally posted by davidbiedny

Originally posted by johnlear
[
Thank you for your comments David they are greatly appreciated. I bid you farewell and pray that your word is your bond.

Farewell? Unlikely. I will post on ATS as I please. Free speech is a wonderful thing.

David-John just wants us out of here so he can continue his support of the Meier case, and continue to ignore the obvious. Again, it's all an exersize in futility. Anyone left with this case oughtta be left behind.

Originally posted by jritzmann

David-John just wants us out of here so he can continue his support of the Meier case, and continue to ignore the obvious. Again, it's all an exersize in futility. Anyone left with this case oughtta be left behind.

I will indeed continue to support the Meiers case. And you are both welcome to stay and to post. I know how difficult it must be to discuss a case when you have never talked to Meiers, or been to his house in Switzerland or even seen the Wedding Cake in person.

Neither have I as a matter of fact but I have a leg up on you guys!

I have Dr. Michael Malins statement, "...I could not see anything wrong with the images. Couldn't see any hoax to it. There was a proper amount of blurring of edges and distance fading and things like that. To the level that I saw it, I can say that the thing was not a photographic fake."

And I have Dr. Robert Nathans statement "If it were hanging from a long string, and you went ahead and moved the pole and then brought it to a halt, the whole object would tend to move back and forth. But it doesn't."
(At this point an assistant asked Dr. Nathan "Do you think it could be tethered from someplace?") And Dr. Nathan said, "I have no idea. He would still have to be awfully clever, because that's a very steady holding. It would have to be a very, very good tethering."

For some reason Dr. Nathans words keeps playing in my mind, "It would have to be a very, very good tethering."

And of course we have Bob Lazars statement that he wasn't going to comment one way or the other on the Meiers cae but that the flying saucer he saw fly at S-4 was identical to one of the photos of a flying saucer in the Meiers case.

Of course there are some that would lump Lazar in with Meiers but thats their problem.

Your posts are always welcome and here's hoping the Wedding Cake never lands in your backyard. You'd probably have to backpedal forever to catch up.

[edit: fixed quote tags]

[edit on 18-5-2007 by 12m8keall2c]

John, again and again you dodge the questions that have been put to you about WHYyou still believe that this whole thing is real, please spend a little of your valued time here to look at my previous post and comment on it, if you still feel you can defend the authenticity of the images and video!

Please stick to the subject and give your reasoning, after all thats what we are here for.

If you want to continue to trade ‘put downs’ etc with other members perhaps you should start a new thread for just that.

John do you know which photo's Michael Malin have seen? I did not see any reference to that. There are 100's of photo's and it would be nice to know which he examined.. Reading your comment, i guess Malin is talking about the 'typical' saucer model (like 2 plates put together).

Originally posted by johnlear
I don't think anyway. Sorry.

speaks volumes.


John, if Malin were to state that he has reviewed the photos again and he has looked at the overal picture, the crappy broken ufo's, the toy ray gun comparison to the, um, toy ray gun, the garbage can lid etc, and he now believes this to be a hoax, would you still believe this story? You seem to be hanging your hat on Malin's comments so, would his reversal mean your reversal?

Originally posted by davidbiedny

People can, and will, believe anything, regardless of a miles-high mountain of hard, cold evidence.

That is true, but the other reality is, that people or even scientists can, and will, disbelieve anything regardless of a miles-high mountain of good and solid evidence.

Here a remarkable example,

[Source; Testimony of Dr. Ted Loder of the Disclosure project ]

One scientist who sits on many NASA committees was very threatened because the particular job that he was doing in NASA would be significantly impacted by the knowledge that there are extraterrestrials already visiting our planet and that they had the ability to travel through space, etc.
He said a very curious thing: "I wouldn't believe it even if it was real."
That's a direct quote from his email to me "I would not believe this even if it was real."
Then he [added], "But if you learn anything more about this, let me know."

I cannot prove that the Billy Meier case is real, but after decennia of debunking or discrediting, by people with unlimited power and money and time to their exposal, there is still no 100% proof that it is not real.

I do not understand everything, and have difficulties with some in the miles-high mountain of information contained in the "Contact Notes” and very disturbing “Prophetic Information”.
It is my opinion that it looks to me as a real case.

Originally posted by davidbiedny
Image processing is my main professional field, even though I play in multiple sandboxes. My credentials are widely available.
It's my professional opinion that every one of the Meier images are fabricated, staged.

As you probably know, in the period that Meier shot his first and later footage, he has no professional digital camera’s, no computer, no professional image capture software that allows anyone to create his very own live images to his disposal.


[edit on 18/5/07 by spacevisitor]

[edit on 18/5/07 by spacevisitor]

spacevisitor, you really need to read through this thread, I have already shown a link to this being thoroughly DEBUNKED here it is again:

thebiggestsecret.online.fr...

Originally posted by spacevisitor
As you probably know, in the period that Meier shot his first and later footage, he has no professional digital camera’s, no computer, no professional image capture software that allows anyone to create his very own live images to his disposal.

My father was a professional photographer, and I essentially grew up in a darkroom - Tri-X film was in my life from when I was about 8 years old, my Dad wouldn't let me mess around with his 4X5 cameras, I had to make do with a Nikon F (which I still have, a classic - and classy - piece of gear). The science of imaging is in no way constrained to the digital era, I'm well aware of the timeline of digital technology, this has precious little to do with my opinion of the fabricated images. When I express my professional opinion of these images, it's based on a lifetime of practical understanding of imaging and photography, analog and digital.

I see no rational reason to look at ANY of the other Meier material. The photos are fakes, which tells me all I need to know about this "case".

dB

[edit on 18-5-2007 by davidbiedny]

Originally posted by spacevisitor

As you probably know, in the period that Meier shot his first and later footage, he has no professional digital camera’s, no computer, no professional image capture software that allows anyone to create his very own live images to his disposal.

You are absolutely right. but your logic is terrible. Indeed "Billy" did not have access to computers for his fraudulent photos, but that only helped his case as the photos were unable to be analyzed as well as we can today, so more people were fooled. Did "Billy" need computers and professional image capture software? The answer is a resounding NO because he used simple low tech string to make his saucers "fly". All you need to do is throw a few of his pictures through a modern-day image analysis program to see some of them.
See the string? Its kind of obvious, isn't it.

Thanks again Oldschool.

In other photos it becomes obvious the the "UFO" is supported by a brace from the tree.

Thanks Old School.

And, running this picture through a simple color analysis show that the more faded tree is approx 6 times more faded that the tree holding up the "UFO". This means the tree is at least 6 times further away than the "UFO"
Using "Billy"'s measurement of the size of the disk brings us to believe the far tree is hundreds of yards wide, thats right, that single tree is larger than the Super-dome..... Or, the closer tree is a fake miniature placed there by Meier. I think the latter is more believable, especially considering Meier said the aliens took that tree to keep people from proving the case real..(huh?). It makes more sense when you know that the owner of the land where ths picture was taken said there was NEVER a tree there.


Thanks again..

Now understand that this is NOT the only place this very tree appears. Low and behold, you have identical trees in 2 separate photographs, taken in different locations.

THANKS JRITZMAN, And kudos to you for coming back to put up with the idiocracy shown by some members in this thread.

Whats up with this picture? Same tree again and yet again you can not see the base. In fact, it looks like "billy" went out of his way to make sure we would never see the base of this tree. Perhaps because in the one picture where can see it, the grass blades look half a foot wide and 5 feet tall? Whats the crumpled up metal thing? It's as big as the ufo is.

Thanks selfless.
Now, the trash can lids were not created in 1986 as "Billy" said , but in 1975, years BEFORE Meier took those photos.
Source of the lids
When you use a computer that accounts for tilt and angles to actually measure the points on the lid,and not just hold a ruler up to your monitor (Horn), we find that they are IDENTICAL. It has been proven that Meier had these trash cans and lids in his possession.


"Billy" told people that his pictures of Asket and her buddy were real pictures of aliens. Im, going to say this again because some people don't seem to understand what a LIE is. "Billy" said those picture of "aliens" were real. He said those WERE the pictures he took. When it was discovered that the picture had curved lines to it that should have been straight(due to the curve of a TV screen) , he changed his story and said he took the pictures off a monitor in the alien ship. When it was discovered that the pictures were just pictures of a T.V. screen during the Dean Martin Show, "Billy" changed his story once again saying the "Men in Black" must have switched them with fakes. He said this despite having said before that those were the pictures he took. He did the same exact thing when it was discovered his dinosaur pictures were photos of a painting.


Mr Lear, you accuse us of unfairly judging someone we have never met. I say no, we are making the best possible conclusions with the evidence available. Why are you so eager to believe the most fantastic story in the history of mankind, when you yourself have never met the man, especially when you admit that a lot of his "proof" is flawed?

"If it fake, why do so many people believe it?" I have heard people ask that so many times in this thread. The answer is because some people are stupid. Thats the reason people are still getting ripped off by someone in Nigeria that needs to get 75 million dollars out of the country and needs your help. Tens of thousands of people a year are scammed by the most obvious frauds out there. People will believe whatever they want , regardless of proof or common sense. Thats why they will ignore the fact that most of the pictures are pictures of pictures, that after taking hundreds of pictures he has not one single negative for testing, the fact that he had his pictures altered (reflections added), submits not pictures but lithographs and constantly changes his story when someone discovers yet another fraudulent picture.

I have fired off 3 E-mails to Mr. Malin in the last 3 days inviting him to come to ATS and clear up this mess. The only places I can find where he endorses the case are all Meier sites selling something.

The predictions...

Unfortunately, I am having problems finding the site where they PROVE he gets his info from magazines and changes his predictions depending on current events. Rest assured as soon as I find it I'll Link to it.

And finally, the whole "one-armed swiss farmer" argument has to stop. That is the most retarded argument I have ever heard.
One armed basketball player whomping the other players.

Heres a mom with NO arms and shes not having any problems...


You want a real prediction? I predict Mr Lear and other believers will just ignore this post. They will act like its not here.

[edit on 18-5-2007 by Tiloke]