Ethanol-blend auto emissions no greener than gasoline

Originally posted by longbow
People, ethanol may be very efficient energy source, just not ethanol from corn.Switchgrass is much better option (at least for US). It contains much more ethanol than corn, grows almost verywhere and needs almost none fertilizers.

two questions:

1) how much ethanol is currently produced from switchgrass as opposed to precious food crops ?

2) if you keep taking nutrients out of soil, no matter what plant you consume, how long until yields dwindle?

note on #2 i agree that more natural varieties are more robust and therefore preferrable, i just don't see how an essentially hypothetic argument (better yet currently unused methods of derivation) compensates for existing and obvious shortcomings and why anyone should ignore the scandalous misuse of arable land, public funds and the concept of environmental preservation, which has literally been turned on its head with most uses of biofuel.

Switchgrass is not used more widely for ethanol production, because currently ethanol in US is produced just as byproduct from subsidized corn. However it was clearly shown that it's superior to corn in all aspects.

As to the ecologic effect - I don't think there will be problems. Remeber that switchgrass originally grew all over American prairies. It doesn't take a lot of nutrient from soil, doesn't need a lot of water and as already said almost none fertilizers and hebicides, so I think the effect on enviroment would be in fact positive.

To the amount of available arable land - well US agriculture currently produces 3 times more food than average american needs, so 2/3 of land could be used for ethanol production with no famine. It can also grow on much lower quality soil (currenlty not used for agriculture).

yes, that would all true, IF switchgrass was actually the dominant source of ethanol, which it isn't. for all we know, it's not going to change anytime soon, because people who are living off that subsdized industry will fight tooth and nail to keep it.


EU rapeseed production is a good example, although, to their credit, Jatropha is currently being introduced as well. anyways, today's biofuels usually suck, the day they improve will be the day i reverse my stance.

posted by Long Lance
Yes, that would all be true IF switch grass was actually the dominant source of ethanol, which it isn't. For all we know, it's not going to change anytime soon, because people who are living off that subsidized industry will fight tooth and nail to keep it.

EU rapeseed production is a good example, although, to their credit, Jatropha is currently being introduced as well. anyways, today's biofuels usually suck, the day they improve will be the day I reverse my stance.

I looked for “rapeseed” in my dictionary and found it is related to turnips with which I am familiar. It is also compared to canola oil here. Bonus: “Rape” in French is the stalk of the grape plant. But I had no good luck in looking for “Jatropha” in my M-W Collegiate Dictionary 10th Edition, 1993, which I admit is getting long in the tooth. So help me, L/L, with this word.

Anecdote: Cooking oil over here is colloquially referred to as “grease” especially after it is used. Restaurants or food prep locations must have 2 grease traps. The first cooking oil trap or tank stores used cooking oil for later disposal. The 2nd grease trap is built into the sanitary sewer system. It is unlawful to put unfiltered greasy or soapy water into the sanitary sewer system for the obvious reasons. Both grease trapping devices have to be emptied on a regular basis. In Louisville restaurants are charged 85 cents a gallon for pickup and disposal of used cooking oil. Grease. Usually stored in 55 gallon drums. This is one more reason restaurants often use cooking oil TOO long. This circumstance also gave rise to the backyard mechanic who picked up the used cooking oil for free, and converted it into a usable fuel. I guess called “bio-diesel” fuel? When the basic ingredient in bio-diesel is available for no cost, it finds usages where if the original cost was included, it would not. Note: One national company in L'ville pays a nominal fee when pcking up used cooking oil, but their service is very problematic. END.

[edit on 4/6/2007 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite

I looked for “rapeseed” in my dictionary and found it is related to turnips with which I am familiar. It is also compared to canola oil here. Bonus: “Rape” in French is the stalk of the grape plant. But I had no good luck in looking for “Jatropha” in my M-W Collegiate Dictionary 10th Edition, 1993, which I admit is getting long in the tooth. So help me, L/L, with this word.

oh, my fault, i realise that niche products aren't universally known, so here a few links:


Jatropha is a tree producing a very oil rich fruit

Jatropha is an example of a plant that could be grown even if it didn't yield biofuel. It is useful for restoring soil, combatting desertification, and providing fertilizer. It requires minimal inputs of water and grows in extremely poor soil.

Any plant that is a cash crop anyway and costs almost nothing to grow can't be a bad candidate for an economically viable biofuel.

wrt rapeseed, yes, canola is a variety, hope this helped.


[edit on 6.4.2007 by Long Lance]

Source

In Malaysia, the production of palm oil for biodiesel is a major
industry. According to a recent report by Friends of the Earth,
"Between 1985 and 2000 the development of oil-palm plantations was
responsible for an estimated 87 per cent of deforestation in
Malaysia." In Sumatra and Borneo, some 4 million hectares of forest
have been converted to palm farms. Now a further 6 million hectares
are scheduled for clearance in Malaysia, and 16.5 million in
Indonesia...

In the Guardian newspaper George Monibot writes: "Almost all the
remaining forest is at risk. Even the famous Tanjung Puting national
park in Kalimantan is being ripped apart by oil planters. The
orangutan is likely to become extinct in the wild. Sumatran rhinos,
tigers, gibbons, tapirs, proboscis monkeys and thousands of other
species could go the same way. Thousands of indigenous people have
been evicted from their lands, and some 500 Indonesians have been
tortured when they tried to resist. The forest fires which every so
often smother the region in smog are mostly started by the palm
growers. The entire region is being turned into a gigantic vegetable
oil field.

i'm very glad this aspect isn't being overlooked outside a few internet forums, biofuels are a trojan horse by - guess whom? exactly the structures and organisations you pretend to fight!

uh, three posts in a row, wellll, i must be talking to myself.


using a pro-ethanol website's resources:

first the shiny ad:


Source

While ethanol is typically produced from the starch contained in grains such as corn and grain sorghum, it can also be produced from cellulose. Cellulose is the main component of plant cell walls and is the most common organic compound on earth. It is more difficult to break down cellulose to convert it into usable sugars for ethanol production. Yet, making ethanol from cellulose dramatically expands the types and amount of available material for ethanol production. This includes many materials now regarded as wastes requiring disposal, as well as corn stalks, rice straw and wood chips or "energy crops" of fast-growing trees and grasses.

Producing ethanol from cellulose promises to greatly increase the volume of fuel ethanol that can be produced in the U.S. and abroad. A recent report found the land resources in the U.S. are capable of producing a sustainable supply of 1.3 billion tons per year of biomass, and that 1 billion tons of biomass would be sufficient to displace 30 percent or more of the country's present petroleum consumption.

please note that by their own admission, roughly a third of the US' present motor fuel consumption can be derived from biomaterial. that's of course an estimate which is more likely than not relying on other industry's abstinence. think paper mills, but i'm sure a lot of people would (rightly) attempt to replace plasitc with natural, biodegradeable products if the current rush into greener technologies persists.


what's really going on:

www.ethanolrfa.org...


i did not find a single cellulose based plant on that list, maybe they are misidentified, but why on earth would they be limited to mostly corn, then ?

PS: as much as i like the idea of deriving thanol from cellulose (or any other inedible substance), i can't help but wonder if people would start cutting down forests left right and center in the name of climate change and the environment.

Ethanol is used in gas blends to replace the MTBE that has a lower boiling point and this gave rise to environmental concerns. But I am not certain if the environmental concerns of MTBE were realized before or after someone calculated what could be made from buying and selling corn futures and lobbying for subsidies and tax breaks.

Personally, it is a bunch of crap to make money for the guys up in Iowa, Nebraska and else where in the midwest. You'd be kidding yourself if you think ethanol which burns with no flame could ever be used as a biofuel. Look at it this way, in Malaysia, they do not grow corn, so their biofuel of the future is palm oil. LOL!