Do you believe, and what convinced you

Densha

Ignoring 'far-fetched' theories can be just as ignorant as following logical, scientific proof. Science doesnt hold all the answers, it's merely an interpretation of them.

I believe... Oh yeah I believe alright.
Ah tell yer, I was in a local bar two Thursday ago.
(My old man left me a couple of years back for that
underhanded b*tch Lolleen, and since then I've
been hittin' the bars. Cruisin' for Mr. Right you might
say).
I'm in my late forties, but my bod can still turn a head or
two, if the lighting's right. My friend Bobby Sue, couldn't
make it that night and so I sat in a booth alone, well apart from
Jack D and Jim Bean esquire as company.
The jukebox kicked out the golden oldies with Red Sevine
leading the troope. The ancient TV on the end of the bar
showed re-runs of 'Happy Days' and Fonzie looked like a
ghoul from Transylvania.

That's when I saw them, three shapes looming out of the
dark. The window at the booth looked out onto a small
parking lot and only two pick-up trucks sat sullenly over
near a grit-box that night.
The strange group trudged towards the Bar and though the
streetlights were on, their faces remained in shadow.
The kid seemed to listen intently to an unshaven guy,
who carried, what looked like a weedkiller sprayer, on his
back. The one that made my eybrows raise, was the guy
in the torn Bo Peep dress.

The door squeaked open and the trio shuffled in.
The Bo Peep guy sat down in a booth across from me,
showed a smile that didn't reach his eyes and said
"please lady, don't ask. The kid dropped onto the cracked
leather beside Bo Peep and I noticed under his studded biker
jacket, he wore a black t-shirt with' lipKno' or something on it.

The other guy, the one with tank on his back was at the bar
and I could see Lenny who ran it, wrinkle his nose as if the
guy gave off terrible fumes.
Lenny bore a remarkable resemblance to Ron Perlman.
I also could see Lenny muttering something to the stranger and I
saw his thumb jerk towards Bo Peep, who was now taking off
the bonnet and lighting a cigarette.
The unshaven guy whispered something and looked into
Lenny's face. I've never seen him flinch, but he did and nodded.
They could stay.

"We're searching for aliens Maam" a young voice made me look
back to the booth. The kid was also smoking and he tapped his ash
self-consciously into the silver-foil ashtray that sat on the formica table.
"I'm Vance", the guy in the dress said, his eyes showed intelligence and
also his embarressment. "Don't read into our clothes, strange circumstances
brought us together" he said and sent a plume of blue smoke into the overhead
lightshade.

The guy with the back-pack brought the drinks over, a pepsi with ice and
two bottles of Corona. The kid grabbed the Pepsi and and crunched an ice
cube in his teeth.
I suddenly smelled urine, like a fogbank rolling in from the sea it seemed to
permeate everything. "It's the tank", the grizzly stranger grunted and sat down
with a sigh.
It was quiet while the three men sipped their drinks and it occurred to me that
whatever the different lives, they'd found common ground and become
friends.

"What aliens?" I asked, my voice rasped and I coughed to clear the airways.
I pushed my hair back and it crackled with the amount of hairspray used.
I lit a Marlboro and sneakly hitched my bra tight, "I've seen no little green men
around here" I snorted and coughed a nervous chuckle.

"Not green...grey" Tin Man mumbled and I could see his muscles tighten as he
said it. "They've taken everything I had" he hissed and continued"... except the
p*ss, they'll never take that from me"
He stuck his thumb into the neck of his bottle and looked at the nicotined-stained
ceiling.
"For me, it's a simple twist of fate. I was arrested for a crime I didn't
commit and look at me, I have no family now... no job, nothin'" Vance whispered
and added" I'm just a patsy".
A few seconds went by and the embers of my cigarette dulled in the ashtray as
I asked the kid, "Well, what's your story?"

The youngster looked at the guy with the tin tank for help, but he was lost
in his own deep thoughts. "Me?... I'm lookin' for the truth and I'm off school
this week anyway". His face flushed and he ran his fingers through his shoulder-
length hair.
I sighed, looked out into the dark street and wondered if one of these was Mr. Right.
Muscles, brains or youth, Lenny was looking more and more appealing every minute.

I smiled and finished my drink. I turned to this strange band and said "buy me a drink
and I'm in".
Vance smiled and I could see an unerving likeness to when Bugs Bunny used to
dress up a girl-bunny.

I flipped the bird to Lenny and thougt to myself "yep and horse you rode in on"

I turned my Shot glass over and said "let's get the flock out of here"
Onwards I thought.

I'm a skeptical believer. Too many military reports of craft during the 1940s-1960s which no one on this planet could build. I think even the arguments on this board about "sonic booms" prove that we don't and surely didn't have the ability to silence supersonic aircraft back in the 50's. Even if we lied and could build mach 10 aircraft in 1952...we still can't silence the sonic booms today...so then who is able to do this?

Almost all of us, including science, still have this: "Earth is the center of the Universe" and "nothing important has happened except during the time of modern humans." This thinking limits a lot of people's ability to grasp what is going on.

It's not just the size of the universe but the AGE of the universe that people keep slipping up on. We are not "new", we are the 3rd or 4th shot at a major lifeform on this planet alone. For an ET to travel here is not that far fetched if you give them a 200 million year head start. Once they get here, who says they have to travel home? Why do scientists keep thinking that they "commute"? My ancient ancestors evolved in Africa, but I don't travel back there every year.

Something that really bothers me is the "absence of evidence"? Sure that makes it easy to explain away UFOs, but why are so many good reports by solid witnesses unexplainable still? Maybe it will take time, but almost every crime leaves clues...even Jack the Ripper which is unsolved has pointed to some clues and possibilities. But suppose Jack the Ripper was continuing today and never a clue was to be found. Some UFO reports don't lead to an answer, which almost every human activity does...and to pull it off for 60 years is even more amazing!

The UFO field feels like the "Truman Show", where things don't add up and you can sense it, but you can't lay a finger on it because you are stuck in the magic trick and can't observe it from the outside. The good UFO reports seem "too perfect" and "unexplainable", the intelligence behind its own inexplicableness makes me wonder how humans alone could pull it off so perfectly. I personally reach a point where being rational so much makes you wonder why do I still have a feeling intuitively that something more is going on...there's a consciousness or intelligence in the background that I get a sniff of but can't catch.

i've witnessed several UFO in the sky growing up in Colorado Springs but finally had a very close encounter(50 ft.) with a seamless metallic disc while hiking in broad daylight in 97 - I was with my best friend who also witnessed the event. This craft could have been the government but nearly one year later I had an abduction experience which I highly doubt was the government... what transpired was too 'alien' and complex to comprehend our government even envisioning and most of my experience defied every law of physics that we know.

[edit on 1-4-2007 by kronos11]

I've seen a few really interesting with my own eyes.
And yes, I have seen a ufo.
Perhaps not in the traditional sense of a alien ship, but what I saw was:
a) unidentified
b) flying
and
c) an object

If you want the full description, I have written it out in detail in the following thread (if you care to see, that is):

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I've seen some other weird stuff too, but I'll save that for another time.

i was convinced that ufo's were real when i saw one. The Battle of Los Angeles! if there's a more straight forward picture of a UFO let me know. that was in the newspapers back in 42. its no fake, its before roswell and most others. also the STS-48 video is pretty serious. I dont have an oppinion on what they are though, i believe our government has the technology, and has had it for quite some time. but i dont know if there are aliens too...or if they are just us in the future, far evolved, who knows...but i dont think its an argument of whether they exist or not...you gotta be pretty ignorant to believe they dont

Hello to everyone

My two cents.

The only reason why I believe is because of what I saw when I was a child. I saw two aliens in my house and my Mom saw a UFO when she was young.

There is far too much evidence to deny the existence of them. As far as who they are, that can be discussed as well as their origins and technology they use.

My personal view on their identity is that they are indeed fallen creatures of many types and characteristics. They rebelled from the God of Israel and their mission is to destroy mankind and God`s plan.


Camilo

Ignoring 'far-fetched' theories can be just as ignorant as following logical, scientific proof. Science doesnt hold all the answers, it's merely an interpretation of them.

To suggest that there is somehow equal weight to be given to both unprovable fantasies and science is mind boggling. Listen, the "far fetched" theories that are expounded on in countless books, websites, and magazines are there for one reason and that's money. Sure some people may actually believe that the world leaders are a lizard race from the 5th dimension, but how does that give it equal ground to stand up to the theory of gravity or evolution?

Science is not "merely" an interpretation of "answers", which doesn't make much sense anyway. Scientists look at things that happen, build a hypothesis, and test it. Then a whole bunch of other scientists tests it, then many years pass and the theory either holds or it doesn't, or it needs modified. Theories improve with time or are thrown out when better/more/new evidence is found. This is the gradual reduction of ignorance. On the other hand you seem to say that people should equally consider unsupported hypotheses that cannot even be tested (and therefore can never be proven wrong, whereas all of science can be proven wrong quite easily, it's just that all of the evidence continues to support it, in other words, science "sticks its neck out" constantly, but religion and other conspiracy theories hide in the darkness of unfalsifiability). "Far fetched" theories begin in the mind of the paranoid, the entrepreneur, and the gullible, science starts with fact, observation, and informed conjecture. I think ignorance is ignoring the obvious conclusion here, that science is far superior for understanding reality, and that belief in unfalsifiable fantasy is childishly absurd.

Something that really bothers me is the "absence of evidence"? Sure that makes it easy to explain away UFOs, but why are so many good reports by solid witnesses unexplainable still?

Because witnesses, even sincere ones, are fallible. People genuinely do mistake quite normal things for UFOs, ghosts, and the like. People in the past have reported seeing mermaids, fairies, leprechauns, devils, angels, little green men, etc, so do you automatically draw the conclusion that they all exist? Of course you don't, unless you're really, really, really prone to fantasy, and the same reason you can't rely on eye-witness accounts of mermaids is the same reason we can't rely on eye-witness accounts of UFOs and aliens. Give me a body, a ship, or some artifact and we have a start, otherwise keep your tired stories to yourself.

I personally reach a point where being rational so much makes you wonder why do I still have a feeling intuitively that something more is going on...there's a consciousness or intelligence in the background that I get a sniff of but can't catch.

That doesn't make your belief reality, though, it simply shows the reality of certain aspects of human psychology. The fact that you visit this site shows that you are somewhat involved in the UFO culture to some extent, like Mulder you probably "want" to believe. You see the rational side of it, which is more than many people can say for themselves here, but you still want believe. You're on the right track, perhaps, if you continue to develop your sense of logic, philosophy, science, and perhaps psychology, you will eventually have no need for UFOs, conspiracies, religion, etc.

Originally posted by Densha82
Scientists look at things that happen, build a hypothesis, and test it. Then a whole bunch of other scientists tests it, then many years pass and the theory either holds or it doesn't, or it needs modified. Theories improve with time or are thrown out when better/more/new evidence is found. This is the gradual reduction of ignorance.

Densha, while you appear to be educated and intelligent, your posts are contantly ignorant to anything other than current, accepted scientific beliefs. You are the typical pin-up-girl of what an ignorant skeptic should be and is.

How do you think we have our current scientific theories? In case you're not sure, I supplied your quote for you. Scientists LOOK AT THINGS THAT HAPPEN.

UFOs are THINGS THAT HAPPEN. We've had many threads on this forum that discuss why mainstream science is reluctant to study UFOs - mainly due to fear of ridicule and lack of support/funding. UFOs are real, they do exist and some leave tangible evidence of their physical presence. The perpetuated culture of ridicule is enough to discourage most scientists from even wanting to take the subject seriously.

Because witnesses, even sincere ones, are fallible. People genuinely do mistake quite normal things for UFOs, ghosts, and the like... ...and the same reason you can't rely on eye-witness accounts of mermaids is the same reason we can't rely on eye-witness accounts of UFOs and aliens. Give me a body, a ship, or some artifact and we have a start, otherwise keep your tired stories to yourself.

Your argument here is so weak, that it is laughable. Yes, witnesses are fallible. Yet, to support your position, you have to rely on EVERY SINGLE UFO/Alien witness throughout all recorded history making a 'mistake' about what they saw.

You discount every single credible case where multiple military pilots see objects that are also tracked on radar. You discount every multiple eyewitness sighting ever recorded and make a sweeping blanket-like assumption that they 'made a mistake', without getting out of your chair to investigate the evidence.

I'd be scared to fly as a passenger if I knew that some commerical airline pilots made so many mistakes identifying other craft that fly right beside them!

Your tired, old skeptical arguments are dull and outdated. You want a crashed ship without first trying to investigate the evidence available. You dismiss the presence of UFOs because they have not been proved by mainstream science. Yet mainstream science has not been encouraged to study UFOs at all. Suck up everything that you read in the newspapers and everything that your government tells you, be a good citizen and don't bother us anymore with your skeptical stories. Skeptics, like you, have an answer for everything. The only problem is that most of your answers don't fit the evidence of the sighting. Skeptics, like you, make far more 'mistakes' with your weak debunking attempts than many people make with their original sightings.

You are exactly the type of person that would have thrown rocks at the likes of Bruno, Galileo and Copernicus around 400 years ago when they dared to conflict with the current accepted church scientific view that the Earth was the centre of the Universe. Those scientists dared to look for answers to taboo topics. If only they lived now, we would have some great minds, not frightened to approach research into UFOs, working to solve the mystery. Instead we have people like you willing to throw rocks at people who make 'mistakes' with what they see.

[edit on 2-4-2007 by tezzajw]

Originally posted by Densha82

I personally reach a point where being rational so much makes you wonder why do I still have a feeling intuitively that something more is going on...there's a consciousness or intelligence in the background that I get a sniff of but can't catch.

That doesn't make your belief reality, though, it simply shows the reality of certain aspects of human psychology. The fact that you visit this site shows that you are somewhat involved in the UFO culture to some extent, like Mulder you probably "want" to believe. You see the rational side of it, which is more than many people can say for themselves here, but you still want believe. You're on the right track, perhaps, if you continue to develop your sense of logic, philosophy, science, and perhaps psychology, you will eventually have no need for UFOs, conspiracies, religion, etc.

I do not look to UFOs and aliens as "answer givers". My opinion is that if you take out the modern human period on Earth, you still have had life and intelligence on this planet. Not to mention the multiple proto-humans/primates that lost the battle of evolution to us. There is also the possibility that Mars and Europa have or had life, and that Earth itself was "seeded" by space debris...where did that life bearing material come from? Therefore there is a chance, with such an immense period of time that has already passed in this universe, that something else has already evolved past our own abilities.

My "gut" isn't wishing for aliens, my gut is telling me that there are aliens because of the known science. When I accept that being real, then it is an easy jump to seeing why the UFO phenomenon is so difficult to understand or prove. We aren't chasing down animals, we aren't chasing down other humans, we are trying to catch someone who is smarter than us. As a child, adults were "magical"...I couldn't read their books, drive a car, or understand why the sky didn't fall on me, but I could sense what was going on. I easily fell for childish explanations of Santa Claus, pins that held the sky up, and other things that fit into my limited view as a child.

The UFO problem falls into a similar pattern where the "explanation" is too easy, it fits our limited human view. Of course liars, hoaxers, and nuts do exist and do make up a lot of nonsense...and very intelligent people do mistake what they see, as most of us do when watching a very good stage magician. Where I differ is instead of lumping all UFO reports into "explainable", I say "What if what they saw was alien?", what road does that answer lead us down? I think Jacque Vallee, the French ufologist, tried this path and saw how mysterious it was.

We all have a choice to what degree we want to believe some people's UFO stories. For me, I don't accept them because I want to believe...I accept some (the good reports) because they are plausible. The O'Hare Airport UFO had some good reports, as have others. That doesn't mean they were alien, but again how are the sonic booms being silenced? Why are "explanations" of weather and military quickly used to end the questions, like Santa Claus was when I was kid? Not that the military and weather don't cause UFOs...but it seems to be the relied upon quick answer to comfort us, while the parts of the stories that don't fit our known science get swept under the rug. These parts get a label of eyewitness misidentification or equipment malfunction.

This board and other UFO boards are interesting in that there are people looking for "wish fulfillment" from aliens instead of trying to better themselves. I'm not looking for that, I'm looking for more evidence, more clues, and more thought from those that don't end the story at: "There's no proof." That's great if you need that answer in your life...I don't. The odds are, that there is other life in this universe and that we are going to eventually bump into it. What will that experience be like? If the life form is more advanced than us...how will it affect us, how do we relate or can we? The UFO phenomenon to me may be a test rehearsal or it may be the real thing. If it is real, there should be some mysterious, unexplainable, or "magical" clues that we shouldn't be able to answer. The continued mystery in itself is a clue to me that there may be some higher intelligence behind it.

If you choose to believe it is all explainable then that belief is yours to have...I think there are a few scientists and military people that would differ and like to know these answers, so they could apply this "explainable technology". Don't take my belief that aliens exist as being a psychological crutch either. I am actually quite fearful of what a devastating affect a revealed higher intelligence would have on the majority of ego centered people on this planet, most who think of themselves as being pretty "bad ass" and only 2nd best to God. They may crumble, as would society, leaving only those that already have grown past their ego and grasped the concept of being part of a larger existence.

I have no idea what agenda a real alien intelligence would have, and whose to say that the aliens that we eventually run into have not already been dominated or psychological devastated at meeting their own UFO-aliens on their home planet. Perhaps they did and now try to shelter us by not truly revealing themselves, but only allowing hazy glimpses or dreamlike encounters, knowing that full blown contact is not a healthy way to preserve an intelligent/ego centered species. Again these questions lead to some answers to why the UFO phenomenon is so maddening, it may be incorrect, there may not be any aliens around our planet...but for now science is telling us that the chances are that someday it will happen. The UFO questions we ask now will have to be asked again when first contact really does occur. That is why I continue to rationally look for answers, it is a great thought experiment and "fun" to test. Aliens may be hear now or they may be 1000 years down the road, either way...I have made the jump, and decided to finally see why the sky really is blue.

In case you're not sure, I supplied your quote for you. Scientists LOOK AT THINGS THAT HAPPEN.

UFOs are THINGS THAT HAPPEN.

Of course UFOs happen and mainstream scientists have looked at it and people that are actually experts in given fields can explain UFO videos and pictures pretty easily. I guess you can say scientists do study UFOs because they study natural phenomena that is often mistaken for UFOs by not-so-educated people. You can't propose this and get grant money for it because UFOs are explainable with other areas of research that are already being funded (meteorology, astronomy, etc etc).

Your argument here is so weak, that it is laughable. Yes, witnesses are fallible. Yet, to support your position, you have to rely on EVERY SINGLE UFO/Alien witness throughout all recorded history making a 'mistake' about what they saw.

I'm glad I could give you a nice laugh, maybe you can take some time to understand the argument now. Yes, I'm saying the human mind is so weak, so gullible, that I will discount every single UFO/alien witness account. Billions of people think there's a god with no proof, based on stories and yet more misinterpretations of the world ("miracles"), millions believed in fairies and witches (and people have died for that), hundreds (thousands?) think they have seen a sea monster in Loch Ness even though it is so easy to mistake so much natural phenomenon there for a living creature. How far should I go on? UFOs and aliens are nothing more than the fairies and witches of our time. If every last human aside from me asserted UFOs to be alien craft and I was the lone skeptic voice that does not make everyone else correct (your Copernicus / Galileo analogy fits here as well).

Your tired, old skeptical arguments are dull and outdated.

I'm sorry, your arguments and beliefs are far more dated than mine, as yours stretch back to the very beginnings of fantastic thought, to the roots of religion and ghosts, to ancestor worship and sun gods.

Skeptics, like you, have an answer for everything.

The opposite, in fact. I accept ignorance as areas in need of exploration by science. You, and your ilk, have the explanations. It's god! It's an alien! It's a spacecraft! I'm saying, "Ok, then show me some proof." How is that an "answer"? I'm saying many pictures and videos and eye witness accounts are explainable, certainly you're not saying none of them are? On the ones I can't explain I admit ignorance, but it is illogical to immediately make up stories about aliens to smooth over the ignorance gap. I'm quite content with not knowing or making a decision until the real evidence is in. However, you're certainly free to conjure up all sorts of magic to explain whatever you want, that just isn't for me, I'm just trying to show you that it's quite illogical.

You are exactly the type of person that would have thrown rocks at the likes of Bruno, Galileo and Copernicus...

Let's not forget that there was actual proof to back up the claims...

If it is real, there should be some mysterious, unexplainable, or "magical" clues that we shouldn't be able to answer.

UFOs, if real, are not outside the scope of science. They may seem as magic, but they would have to work within the same universal laws as our technology does. They would have a deeper understanding for sure, but there would be nothing magical about it.

no i dont belive we are being visited by E.Ts

far too many story tellers and not enough evidence. The modern "flying saucer" has been with us 60 years and theres still no conclusive proof they exist.

what surprises me most is the unshakeable almost religious like belief people have in ETs visiting earth in spaceships.



[edit on 6-4-2007 by yeti101]

Originally posted by yeti101
no i dont belive we are being visited by E.Ts

seeing is believing..

Originally posted by yeti101
The modern "flying saucer" has been with us 60 years and theres still no conclusive proof they exist.

really? not only is their miles of testimony from millions of credible citizens but there are tons of DETAILED accounts from airline pilots and astronauts who are trained aviators. I would say that is proof enough. Also, one must keep in my mind that we have the most strictly controlled media this world has ever seen(in our time) despite the advent of video cameras - the cost of alien knowledge being released to the public is HUGE for the world bank. the alien factor decimates their whole cycle of dependency that they've built up so elaborately over the past century... sure we have lasers, lcd screens, optic fiber and the like but the real bank is in the energy sources

kronos as far as im aware no pilot has ever said they looked through a window of a ufo and seen an alien pilot. So how can you say they are 100% alien craft being piloted by extra terrestrials?

oh and remember john leer is a pilot....

[edit on 6-4-2007 by yeti101]

The reason I'm writing this is to explain how I came to believe.
In the previous posting from me, I explained how I'd met three
strangers that were also in search of the truth.

The next morning, we set off to visit the site where an elderly
man had photographed his five year old daughter and
unknowingly, took a snapshot of an alien.
The case was to become known as The Cumbrian Spaceman.

The coach that would take us out to the nature resort trundled into
the market square and I saw Bruce, the guy with the 'p*ss tank' on
his back, stub his cigar out on the palm of his hand.
His eyes slit-like, caught me gasping and he whispered "it's
about not minding the pain". His smile was predatory.
Vance, who wore the Bo-Peep dress, grinned and stepped
up to paid the bus-driver.
We all clambered on.

Two hours later, we stood in a stinking cloud of diesel fumes
as the bus roared off down the Burgh Marsh road.
The day was bright, but a little windy and the sky threw wispy
clouds towards the west. Somewhere a skylark sang it's
trill song.

The grass moved in the breeze as if it was a living thing and
the kid in the leather jacket looked around, shielding his eyes
with his slender hand.
"Where about did it occur Ripley?" he said and I smiled at the
mention of my name and put my hands on my hips.
"Well my young prince, the books indicate it was in this large
meadow and it close to a pinic site".
The boy flushed and focused on Bruce pumping urine into
small flasks. "Keep this with you at all times" he grunted and
passed them around.

Near the the poorly tarred road, a sign pointed towards a recreation
area, so we set off that way.

The first thing we noticed was the brightly painted Ice Cream van
and I could see that were two attendants watching us from a side
window.
As we stepped into the Picnic area, the kid trotted towards the Ice
Cream van and called over his shoulder "I'm buying, what do you
want?"
Vance ambled after him and held his dress up to stop the carpark
dust dirtying the hem.
Bruce snorted and igniting the same stunted cigar he'd had earlier,
squinted at me and said "keep close and keep your eyes open.
I opened my eyes.

The two Ice Cream men beamed as we closed on them and I was
astonished to see that one of the men was the double of the bearded
actor Sean Connery. The other assistant seemed familair and it took
me a few minutes to realise who he looked like.
He could have been a twin with the leading man from Jurassic Park.

"Good morning" the bearded man said and I noticed the soft Scottish
accent, "We have an offer today on hundred's and thousands" he continued.
I fluttered my eyelids at him and the Sam Neil look-a-like rubbed his chin
with interest. I also notice one eyebrow rise from 'Sean'.

Vance saw the interchange and slammed some coins onto the Formica
counter. "We're here to see the spaceman" Vance said and smiled up to
the Connery double, "that's last of our funds... no bus fare left, so we're
here until we solve the case".
"I'm Mr. Ramius, the older assistant cooed and with faint scratch of his
beard, said "When he reached the New World, Cortez burned his ships.
As a result his men were well motivated".

Bruce folded his arms and I could see the sinews coil in his forearms.
"Do you know where the photo was taken?" he asked, but I could see
by his eyes that he demanded an affirmative.
The two assistants looked at each other and smiled. "We'll show you"
they both said together and dissappeared from the glass hatch.

I was suprised at their speed as they reappeared at the back of the van.
I noticed Bruce reach for his nozzle as a precaution.
"Please climb in" they again said together and I saw Vance grab the
money off the counter and step towards them.

A minute later we were all jammed into the small space where the
flakes, sprinkles and wafers were stacked. I apologised to Vance as
I moved to get more room. "Crushed nuts" he hissed and pulled on
the lace rim of his dress's shoulders.

As the engine revved and the van shuddered forward, Ramius hollered
from the driver's seat "It reminds me of the heady days of Sputnik and
Yuri Gagarin, when the world trembled at the sound of our rockets.
Now they will tremble again at the sound of our triumph".
His mouth stretched into the famous twisted smile as he said to his
second "The order is: engage the crappy Ice Cream van music!"

We roared forward.
To continue.


[edit on 6-4-2007 by IronMan]

Originally posted by Dan76
Do you believe in ufo`s/aliens. And what are some of the most convincing things out there?? Cause we all know what we can do with computers these days.

I think you should have said "Are you aware of UFO's". For the simple fact that there are UFO's and they probably are all man made. Aliens, well I am not so sure about that. Fact is, there is nothing that can travel faster than light, so if there are creatures they sure would have to live a long time, or be able to create lots of babies on the way to Earth. With that said, nobody can ever tell me that we are the only life, let alone intelligent life (is that what we are) in this universe.

Happy days,



[edit on 6-4-2007 by Stockburn] Grammar err.

[edit on 6-4-2007 by Stockburn]

I’ve been lucky enough to have grown up knowing alien spacecraft are visiting earth. My parents had a close encounter with an alien spacecraft while driving home from my aunt’s house in Illinois before I was born. Here’s a short version of the story:

It was in 1964, my mother first sighted the UFO in the rear view mirror, her impression was it looked like a large lamp (hanging upside down.) She dismissed it after first noticing it, but then alerted my father after realizing it was following the car. Alarmed, they stopped the car on the side of the highway. They both watched this giant ship of some kind floating behind them, blackened metallic in color and had the rough shape of an elongated upside-down birthday cake, yet it was as big as a two story house. There were red and blue lights on it (not flashing), and a dimly lit window (they could not make out any inhabitants, though). It glided closer to the car silently until it got about 100 feet away where it stopped.

Another car pulled approached in the opposite direction and stopped next to my parents. It was a man and a woman. Baffled, the man asked what they should do. They decided on going in opposite directions in their cars. Luckily (I think) for my parents, the UFO followed the other car at this point. My parents made the drive back to our house uneventfully.

I realize that this is very similar to many abduction scenarios I have read. They have never been subjected to any hypnosis, and frankly aren’t very interested in the subject, so they just leave it alone. It is also interesting to note that my father worked for Argonne National Labs as a Nuclear Engineer at the time. I don’t know if that is significant, but I would bet it is.

I realize that this is not proof for anyone else out there. These are my parents, and I know them VERY well. The story has remained the same for my entire life, and I really see no reason why they would make this up or lie. They both describe the exact same thing in great detail, even to this day. Also, they have never done drugs and don’t drink… I also realize that it could be ‘black budget’ human-made, but based on all the evidence I have seen, the date it happened and the evidence I have read, most likely it was made by aliens from another planet—so yes I’m definitely a believer. Actually I consider myself more like a ‘knower’ than a ‘believer’.

Originally posted by Densha82
Yes, I'm saying the human mind is so weak, so gullible, that I will discount every single UFO/alien witness account.

Therein lies your problem, Densha. Without any investigation at all, you pass judgement on every person who has ever recorded a UFO/alien encounter throughout all recorded history.

Densha82
However, you're certainly free to conjure up all sorts of magic to explain whatever you want, that just isn't for me, I'm just trying to show you that it's quite illogical.

What's magical about clever physics that lets aliens travel here? Nothing, it's just clever physics. I don't believe in magic.

As I was saying, I was convinced by what I
experienced not too long ago with some
aquaintences.
As I said in the posting above, we were on a quest.

The Ice Cream van rumbled across the gravelled parking lot
and in the cramped rear, we made ourselves as comfortable
as possible.
Bruce squatted near the door and the pungent aroma
of slash washed over us all again. Vance leaned over and
whispered "I don't trust these two, I know we're all in strung
out shape, but stay frosty and alert. We can't afford to let
one of those b*stards in here.

"Hmm..." Bruce muttered and said "they must be Ruskies"
"Huh" the youngster asked quietly and gripped the Ice Cream
dispenser. The van was rocking side-to-side now and
I had to jam myself between the counter and some boxes of
cones to stop myself falling into the front seats.

"Russians, kid" Bruce continued and blew a cloud of dark
cigar smoke through the sliding side window. "Ramius and
Vasili?...with names like that, they must be reds".
The kid looked puzzled, "With a Scottish accent? he chirped.
"I once met a Spanish knight called Remirez with
a Glaswegian tone!" hissed Bruce and hitched his p*ss-pack
onto his shoulders.

The two in the front were unware of Bruce's observation
and continued to chatter to each other. I still struggled with
the remarkable similarity of these two and even though I always
had a soft spot for Sean Connery when he was younger,
I believe his mature looks today are better.

Ramius smiled at me through the rear-view mirror as if he'd
read my thoughts and I blushed like a school girl.
His co-assistant turned to Ramius and said "if we find the
Cumbrian Spaceman, will we be famous?"
The engine gunned and spluttered, but I could hear the driver's
response. "Oh yes comrade, we will be asked to go to America".
Ramius face hardened as he whispered "We will pass through
the American patrols, past their sonar nets and lay off at their
largest city, we will listen to their rock and roll... while we
conduct Slurpy-making drills.

Vasili used his Sam Neil smile and looked away into the distance,
"I will live in Montana. And I will marry a round American woman
and raise rabbits, and she will cook them for me".
The younger Russian folded his arms and his white attendant
tunic rustled as he pressed on, "And I will have a pickup truck...
maybe even a recreation vehicle".

Ramius smiled and patted his partner's shoulder. Vasili touched
the dashboard as if looking for dust and said "And I will drive from
state to state". His brow furrowed and he turned to Ramius with a
question, "Do they let you do that?"
Ramius rubbed his greying beard and pondered "I suppose".
"No papers?" Vasili seemed afraid,
No papers, state to state" his friend soothed him and this brought
Vasili's boyish smile back.
"Then I will winter in Arizona" this said slowly, "actually, I think I'll
need two wives!"
Ramius s'n-word'ed and said "Oh at least".

The Ice Cream van continued to bounce over the badly paved
road and our motley UFO-seeking crew hung on for dear life.

I hunkered closer to the counter and wondered what the kid's name
was. He looked around sixteen and his piercing blue eyes told of
a life in front of a computer monitor.
"Heh son, what's your name? I chided, the kid looked over his shoulder
at me and said "Newt... my name name is Newt" his doe eyes held me
and he continued "nobody calls me Rebecca except my brother".

Vance had now torn both sleeves from his Bo-Peep dress and
I could see a tattoo of a panther crawling up his bicep, the claws
leaving red streaks.

Then I turned back towards the front seating area and as I did, I saw
Bruce tense, his right leg slid across the ribbed- metal floor and he
grabbed the refrigeration unit with lightning speed.
Through gritted teeth he hissed "Conn, sonar! Crazy Ivan!"
"Hold onto something" Vance yelled and his angry eyes glowed
beneath his lacy bonnet.

The Ice Cream van suddenly swerved, causing the fridge door to
bang open and a deluge of Screwballs, Rola-Cola and Kiora Orange
spewed out into the service area.
Vance spun around and watched the dirvish of cooled refreshments
fly around the van, his bodice smeared with vanilla sauce.
With a shrill cry, he said "they're comin' outta the walls, they're comin'
outta the Goddam walls!".
I heard Bruce sneer sarcastically "Outstanding, all we need now is a
deck of cards!"

"What's goin' on?" the wide-eyed kid asked, his long hair blowing in the
draught from the window.
I looked at the van floor and I could see melting lollies slewing around,
leaving trails of red and yellow, like snail tracks. I screamed out "Look
there's something moving in here and it ain't us! "

"Bruce turned his head towards his compadres and shouted over the
screech of tires and the thump of complaining metal, "Russian Captains
sometime turn suddenly to see if anyone's behind them. We call it a
'Crazy Ivan' the only thing you can do is hang on and make like an empty
van".

I could see all manner of things falling out of the glove-compartment and
Vasili was struggling to stop himself being buried under the barrage of
documents and other sundries. With a disgruntled growl, he said "Ive
quit better jobs than this".

The leather-jacket clad youngster was laughing as we bounced and rocked
about and called out to Bruce "So what's the catch?"

Bruce bit down hard on his cigar and said "the catch is, a van this big doesn't
exactly stop on a dime... and if we're too close, we'll drift right into the back
of him", this said with a chunky finger pointing at Ramius.

With a roaring sound, the van spun almost a full circle as as we did, Newt
screamed out with glee "Whoooowhooo!! we're on an express elevator to
hell... going down!"
Outside, the cloud of dust swallowed the van and Ramius had to fish-tail
to straighten it's course. "Never give up, never surrender" Ramius shrieked
above the clamour.

With a horrid grinding noise, the van rocketed toward a country lane, leaving
a licence plate spinning in the dirt. Vance poked his head out of the window
and as his bonnet flapped away in the breeze, he exclaimed "Great Scott!"

I sighed with relief and overheard Vasili say "We're in the pipe, five by five".

[edit on 8-4-2007 by IronMan]

The day was coming to an end and I could see several trees
silhouetted on the horizon against the blood-red sun. Ripley
was snoozing as we neared the supposed site of the Cumbrian
Spaceman and I peered closely at her face. I could see how some
of the booze had stolen her looks. Her hair was dark, too dark to be
natural and though her life may of been tough, she would of been a
catch... once. With a quick glance at her figure, I yawned and pulled
the collar of my leather jacket up.

The Ice Cream van was struggling against a steep incline and I could
hear Ramius cursing the vehicle forward.
Vance was using a large serrated knife that he'd borrowed from Bruce,
to shorten his dress and for the first time, I saw that he had stockings
on underneath.

Bruce sat cross-legged on the filthy floor checking his equipment.
Even though the van slewed with melted popsicles, his manner said
that he'd be the same if it was a jeweled palace. I could hear him
quietly humming '99 bottles of p*ss on the wall'.
As I leaned against a battered and torn box of sandwich wafers,
the sweet scent of caramel seeping from the cardboard. I
watched my new friends.

Though the noise of the rumbling van was loud, it seemed that there
was a lull inside, and this band of seekers were winding down for the
night.

Vasili was asleep, He rocked back and forward as the van scrambled
over the moor stones, but he showed no indication of being disturbed.
His head beat with a steady tattoo against the window and small
strand of spittal hung from his muttering lips.

That's when I nearly fell out.
The back door suddenly clicked open and due to my relaxed state, I
turned to look and the box I was leaning on collapsed, sending me
sliding towards the gaping maw.
With lightning speed, Bruce grabbed out at my legs, his hands
finding purchase, but causing me to turn, so now I was falling out of
the van backwards.
He let go and Vance reached to save me, but I was too near the rear
for him and he could only look at my wide eyes as I fell through the
doorway.

At the last second, a shepherd' s crook appeared and I grabbed it, the
black rectangle of the van's doorway and this strange hook sticking out
of it seemed sureal, I held on. I could see Vance's braclet glinting in the
last of the light. The night raced past and I could feel the
loneliness of the moor.

Ramius must have realised what happened and hit the brakes with force.
I flew back into the van, Vance slammed against the small wall that
divided the back and the seating area, Bruce slid across the floor and
and smashed into boxes of cheap Panda Cola, Vasili and Ripley slept
on. "Thanks, you saved my life with that," pointing to his ribboned stick,
Vance nodded and went to where he'd left the knife.

The van came to a halt and I stood breathing hard and leaned over to help
Bruce up from the floor. "I'm okay kid, I don't need a hand" he muttered
and brushed my hand away. Ramius had got out and came around to
check if everybody was safe.

I climbed out of the van and stretched, my back ached and my hands
were sore from gripping Vance's staff. Ramius reached out and
grabbed me by the shoulders. "Junior... I thought I'd lost you boy"
he said fatherly and pulled me into a hug.
I looked surprised past his hairy ears at Vance and Bruce who were
smirking at my embarrasment.

Ripley appeared at the door, wiped her eyes and yelled "Allright,
sweethearts, you heard the man and you know the drill! Assholes
and elbows! Let's get camped down".
This brought startled looks from everybody and even Ramius let
go of me and stared at Ripley.

"Newt, unload the box under my seat will ya?" Ramius said softly,
his eyes never leaving Ripley as she stepped down from the van.
Vance looked around into the darkness and said "Maybe we could
build a fire, sing a couple of songs, huh? Why don't we try that?"

I leaned into the cab area and looked over at Vasili, his eyes were
half closed and his chest moved with an even rhythm.With soft
Soviet tones he whispered "...Well, as least you're out of the tree"
I pulled the driver's seat forward, and in a cloud of diesel-smelling
dust, I could see the crate Ramius mentioned.
Vasili moaned and murmered "... he's gonna eat the goat". I smiled
and combed my fingers through my hair.
With a small grunt, I pulled the crate out of the van and dragged it
around to the back, the rusty handle squeaking as it bumped across
the moor floor.

Bruce was hunkered down trying to keep a small flame alive, while
Vance dragged a large gorse bush closer.
Ramius looked on and seemed to be fascinated by the the men's
attempts to gain fire. He folded his arms and scoffed "I think you've
been watching too much T.V son, Just another American who saw
too many movies as a child? Another orphan of a bankrupt culture
who thinks he's John Wayne? Rambo? Marshall Dillon?
Bruce didn't look up but as Vance reappeared dragging a log, from
the darkness he said "I was always kinda' partial to Roy Rogers
actually. I really dig those sequined shirts".
Bruce squinted at Ramius and hissed "I was making my bones
when you were still goin' out with cheerleaders"

Smoke slowly swirled upwards from the gorse and Bruce gently
wafted at it, the flame getting brighter.
I sat down on the large box and watched the fire bring the
surroundings to life. Vance's arms were smudged with dirt and
smoke and the reminants of his dress snagged sticks and heather,
making him curse softly. Ripley sat on a small rock and stroked her
bare legs, occasionally flicking her hair back to show her shiny
forehead.

Ramius was also watching and I don't know if it was the rising
fire that made his eyes glitter or an inner flame. He grasped his
his lapels and sat beside me on the crate. "So do you think you'll
catch this so-called Spaceman? Ramius chided, he was looking
at Vance, but it was Bruce who answered. "I've got a full tank,
two canteens and I wouldn't advise anyone to open their Kiora".
Bruce slit a stick in half with his knife and tossed it into the fire.

Vance spat into the night and wiped his lips, a plastic container
followed the saliva onto the moors.
Ramius rubbed his hands to warm them and said, "this reminds
me of my first night on The Whippee"

Bruce's head jerked up and he whispered " You were on the
Whippee? "
I looked at the people's faces and asked "What happened?"

Ramius smiled weakly and coughed into his hands, "Japanese
submarine slammed two torpedoes into our side, Kid. We
was comin' back from the island of Tinian to Leyte... just delivered
the bomb. The Hiroshima bomb. Eleven hundred men went into
the water. Vessel went down in 12 minutes.
Didn't see the first shark for about a half an hour. Tiger. 13-footer.
You know how you know that when you're in the water, Newt?
You tell by looking from the dorsal to the tail".

Vance wandered back to the van and made several double-sized
ice creams with all the trimmings, Hundreds and thousands lined
his track back to the fire.
The chocolate flakes crumbled like forgotten ruins and
the Monkey's Blood looked like new-found oil as it dripped from
his fingers.

"What we didn't know, was our bomb mission had been so secret,
no distress signal had been sent.
They didn't even list us overdue for a week. Very first light,
Son, sharks come cruisin', so we formed ourselves into tight
groups. You know, it was kinda like old squares in the battle like
you see in the calendar named "The Battle of Waterloo" and the
idea was: shark comes to the nearest man, that man he starts
poundin' and hollerin' and screamin' and sometimes the shark go
away... but sometimes he wouldn't go away. Sometimes that
shark he looks right into ya. Right into your eyes. And, you know,
the thing about a shark... he's got lifeless eyes. Black eyes.
Like a doll's eyes. When he comes at ya, doesn't seem to be
living... until he bites ya, and those black eyes roll over white and
then... ah then you hear that terrible high-pitched screamin'. The
ocean turns red, and despite all the poundin' and the hollerin',
they all come in and they... rip you to pieces".

We sat in rapture, eyes child-like wide and ice cream dripping
onto the sizzling fire. Bruce wiped the threads of his canteen
clean and offered it around.
No one accepted.

"You know by the end of that first dawn, lost a hundred men.
I don't know how many sharks, maybe a thousand. I know how
many men, they averaged six an hour.

On Thursday morning, Bruce, I bumped into a friend of mine,
Herbie Robinson from Cleveland. Baseball player. Boatswain's mate.
I thought he was asleep. I reached over to wake him up. Bobbed up,
down in the water just like a kinda top. Upended. Well, he'd been bitten
in half below the waist. Noon, the fifth day, Vance, a Lockheed
Ventura saw us. He swung in low and he saw us... he was a young
pilot, a lot younger than Newt. Anyway, he saw us and he come
in low and three hours later a big fat PBY comes down and starts to
pick us up. You know that was the time I was most frightened...
waitin' for my turn. I'll never put on a lifejacket again. So, eleven
hundred men went in the water; 316 men come out and the sharks
took the rest, June the 29th, 1945. Anyway, we delivered the bomb".

We sat in silence and even the air was heavy with respect .

Vance looked away, his head in his hands and Ramius nodded sagely
"You okay?" he said quietly. Vance rubbed the heel of his hand into
his right eye socket and said " Yeah... I just ate my ice cream too fast"
and added "Give us a minute".

I shook my head in disbelief and watched as Ripley gently took Vance's
Ice cream and licked the last of the sprinkles away.

A few minutes later, we made our beds and prepared to spend the
night on the moors.