Vulcan tanker info

Can anyone tell me if the following Vulcan tanker flew during the falklands. Or if any Vulcan tankers flew in support of the falklands campaign.

Vulcan B2K XH561 of 50 Sqdn.

[edit on 1-4-2007 by ULTIMA1]

XH561 did fly as an tanker during the Falklands War.

The Argentine surrender was effective from 2359hrs on 14 June 1982. The first Vulcan tanker conversion flew at BAe Woodford (the old Avro plant) on the 18th June 1982.

Therefore how can it be possible that they flew in support of the Falklands war?

I have an old CD or something with the whole Falklands bombing sqn timeline. Its was crazy complicated long hual with 3/4 of the planes just being used to get the main Vulcans to the target. Really cool logistics and plaining went into that attack. In fact the RAF has done a number attacks like that even with the F-111s. Makes me wonder if Isreal took a page out of the RAF's book in doing a strike like the one they did on the Iraqi Reactor.

Originally posted by waynos
The Argentine surrender was effective from 2359hrs on 14 June 1982. The first Vulcan tanker conversion flew at BAe Woodford (the old Avro plant) on the 18th June 1982.

Therefore how can it be possible that they flew in support of the Falklands war?

www.abpic.co.uk...

Picture of XH561 as a tanker, taken 15th April 1982.

Tanker conversions were carried out prior to the Falklands War.

[edit on 1/4/2007 by RichardPrice]

Originally posted by Canada_EH
I have an old CD or something with the whole Falklands bombing sqn timeline. Its was crazy complicated long hual with 3/4 of the planes just being used to get the main Vulcans to the target. Really cool logistics and plaining went into that attack. In fact the RAF has done a number attacks like that even with the F-111s. Makes me wonder if Isreal took a page out of the RAF's book in doing a strike like the one they did on the Iraqi Reactor.

I fully recommend 'Vulcan 607' by Rowland White - it details the first Black Buck mission from the point where someone said 'we want to do this...' to them actually doing it.

Very detailed, very indepth and very very interesting - it shows perfectly how lucky the crews were, and how close to not making it they came.

That picture proves that the first conversion was carried out by June 15th. I have yet to see anything that proves that they were used in the Falklands other than people saying they were. They HAD to have been completed by around the 15th or so because 50 Squadron officially started flying them on the 21st.

I have asked the photographer what he can recall about the picture and how sure he is that the date on the site is accurate. If I get a reply I will report it here chaps.

In looking into the Vulcan History I have found a report, in a history, of the Govt issuing the requirement to develop a tanker version of the Vulcan in April 1982 to BAe. It is then recorded that the first flight was made on 18 June with 50 Squadron reforming on 21 June and the CA release for the aircraft being issued on 23 June, on which day the first Vulcan B.2(K), the original designation, returned to Waddington.

This information is repeated elsewhere but as the wording is also identical it is possible that it is from the same source so cannot be regarding as independantly supportive, but I will keep looking.

Here's a fairly detailed web pages detailiong air operations of the time, but still no mention of a Vulcan tanker

Falklands Air Operations

[edit on 1-4-2007 by waynos]

I allways thought it was vc10`s and victor`s flying as tankers. And 4/5 of them for each mission

The reason for the Vulcan conversions was that the VC-10's wouldn't be ready and we faced a gap. We always leave ourself with a gap, for instance most of the Vulcans had been retired before a Tornado reached service, the Jaguars have almost all gone and yet no A2G Typhoons are yet available (6 Sqn with Jaguars will be the next Typhoon squadron in the RAF) and, worst of all, look at the gap between the Sea Harriers retirement (already gone) and the RN's first Lightnings (maybe still a decade in the future).

The trouble with the tanker gap was that we got caught out and it actually mattered that we had insufficient tankers. If Argentina had waited six weeks we would have had no Vulcans either, for any type of mission.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
That picture proves that the first conversion was carried out by June 15th. I have yet to see anything that proves that they were used in the Falklands other than people saying they were. They HAD to have been completed by around the 15th or so because 50 Squadron officially started flying them on the 21st.

This document proves it.

Some Vulcan bombers were also pressed into service as tankers to give additional temporary tanker capacity and the RAF’s Nimrod MR 2 maritime patrol aircraft had to be given refuelling probes to perform their tasks in the South Atlantic.

Front page of document.
i114.photobucket.com...

See para #3.
i114.photobucket.com...

Ultima, how on earth do you accept the line "Some Vulcan bombers were also pressed into service as tankers to give additional temporary tanker capacity "

as proof of actual operations?

I have now found reference to the very first Vulcan tanker conversion, which was XH561, flying from Woodford on June 18 1982 in Vic Flintham's 'Aircraft In British Military Service' which is a comprehensive registry of every aeroplane type and mark operated by the UK military since the end of World War 2 and every single unit which operated them, and at what base etc etc, you get the picture.

If a Vulcan tanker had flown even a single mission in the Falklands War it would be recorded here, but it isn't, because it didn't happen.

Furthermore, it states that the Vulcan conversion was brought about to free more Victors from UK based operations to go to the South Atlantic, so, you see, eve3n if the Vulcan K.2 had been ready before the end of the war, it was never intended to use it down there. Instead it was purely a stopgap for use at home.

How about this one then, a Falklands diary published on the Ministry of Defence website

Thursday 13 May


Woke up to sounds of Dave Stenhouse, Monty, John chatting to Sherlock/Turfrey - joint basic briefings. Appears options being looked at UK are Vulcan tankers being pursued by BAe Woodford.

www.raf.mod.uk...

Notice, in the middle of May, initial briefing that Vulcan tankers are being pursued in the UK by BAe at Woodford, not operated by the RAF in the South Atlantic.

You can go right through it, and this one,
www.rafmuseum.org.uk... the RAF Museum Falklands timeline in which every flying operation is recorded without a Vulcan Tanker coming into it once.

What about the first flight of XH561 on 18 June 1982 At Woodford. How much more precise could I possibly be.

This fact is also recorded in the register of Aircraft in British Military Service 1946-2000, published by Airlife, in the Vulcan section.

Thats all a bit more comprehensive that the one liner you appear to be convinced by.

[edit on 2-4-2007 by waynos]

Originally posted by waynos
Ultima, how on earth do you accept the line "Some Vulcan bombers were also pressed into service as tankers to give additional temporary tanker capacity "

as proof of actual operations?

[edit on 2-4-2007 by waynos]

Because i aslo am going by this line.

""Still discovered that to support a fighting force in the Falklands from Ascension Island, some 3,800 miles away, absorbed virtually the whole tanker force operating at three times its peacetime flying rate.""

They needed to PRESS THE VULCAN TANKERS INTO SERVICE.

YES, we know! Thats is what the whole programme was about.

Do you suppose they just filled up the bomb bay with fuel and told the pilot to make sure he didn't open the doors?

I have given you the dates for the requirement, first flight and CA release yet you refuse to believe them.

So you are saying that because of that one line in a college training information paper (not quite the 'official record' you are pushing it as) all the specific details I have given you are meaningless?





[edit on 2-4-2007 by waynos]

Originally posted by waynos
So you are saying that because of that one line in a college training information paper (not quite the 'official record' you are pushing it as) all the specific details I have given you are meaningless?
[edit on 2-4-2007 by waynos]

No, i am stating that i have enough information (personally and professionally) that the Vulcan tankers were used in the Falklands.

[edit on 2-4-2007 by ULTIMA1]

So why wont you share it? If you have so much that is. In fact why did you even have to come here and ask, if you already knew so much?

If you could show me that my information was wrong and that Vulcans were in fact used I would be fascinated, but so far you have failed in three separate threads to provide anyhting at all except what looks to be a half remembered rumour from your Alconbury days which you have believed to be true for 25 years.

If it is true, great, show me. Properly.

If not, give it up.

If the dates are wrong, how can that be? I have them now in three independant sources, but you are telling me they are wrong without offering anything to back that claim, so I'm sure you can understand my scepticism.

I haven't recieved a reply from the photographer btw, maybe he's seen this thread and doesn't want to get involved?

[edit on 2-4-2007 by waynos]

Originally posted by waynos
If the dates are wrong, how can that be? I have them now in three independant sources, but you are telling me they are wrong without offering anything to back that claim, so I'm sure you can understand my scepticism.

I haven't recieved a reply from the photographer btw, maybe he's seen this thread and doesn't want to get involved?

[edit on 2-4-2007 by waynos]

It might be hard to find an actual record, i mean your probly not going to find a record of the US. KC-135s from RAF Mildenhall that helped out with refueling in emergencies.

I have a message out to the researchers and analyst at NSA looking for some information to help me out.

I'm sure there must be some records somewhere, its just finding them I suppose.

Thing is, its not just a case you saying yes and me saying no, its that you are stating something that documented dates say is impossible.

Here's a theory I have fashioned to try to explain our impasse;

The requirement for Vulcan tankers ASAP was borne out of the Falklands, we are both agreed on that.

The news that Vulcan tankers were being pursued as an emergency measure was known, at least in military circles, by mid May at the very latest. Stationed at Alconbury, you would be well placed to pick up on this information.

I propose that it may be the case that 'tankers being converted' translated by word of mouth into them actually already being used while XH561 was actually still in bits in Manchester, thoudsands of miles from the conflict. Other sources of confusion may arise from the fact that 50 Sqn was part of the Black Buck detatchment on Ascension but only 44 Sqn aircraft actually flew the missions, 50 Sqn then seamlessly switched to the tanker role in mid June leading to the assumption that this was their role in the Falklands all along.

Plausible?

BTW, yes there were secrets. The use of KC-135's was kept a secret for years, but for obvious reasons. Secrecy and disinformation about converted Vulcans however makes no sense.
Indeed the presence of one or more Vulcan tankers might have provided a cover story for refuellings mysteriously taking place while every RAF Victor tanker was accounted for elsewhere. On second thoughts, maybe it did and this is what you were told at the time? Hmmm, I'll call that theory B.

[edit on 3-4-2007 by waynos]

If it helps here are the six K.2's, and what I know of them (yes, there are blanks at the moment)

XL445 - returned to woodford for conversion May 1982, delivered to 50 Sqn in July

XH560 - returned to woodford for conversion Jun1982, delivered to 50 Sqn in Aug

XH561 - returned to woodford for conversion May1982 (first one) flown 18 Jun, del to 50 Sqn 21 Jun, CA release 23 Jun

XJ825 - ?

XM571 - converted at Woodford during May 1982, returned to service late Jun with 50 Sqn

XH558 - ? (last surviving Vulcan in airworthy condition and due to fly on this years airshow circuit)

[edit on 3-4-2007 by waynos]

Originally posted by waynos
The news that Vulcan tankers were being pursued as an emergency measure was known, at least in military circles, by mid May at the very latest. Stationed at Alconbury, you would be well placed to pick up on this information.

BTW, yes there were secrets. The use of KC-135's was kept a secret for years, but for obvious reasons. Secrecy and disinformation about converted Vulcans however makes no sense.
[edit on 3-4-2007 by waynos]

Yes working at Alconbury we heard a lot of what was going on. We gave some parts and tools to the British and helped out as much as we could (unofficially of course) we wanted to help like RAF Mildenhall and other bases. All of us thier at Alconbury felt we needed to help, specially when thier was word going around that the Russians were helping and going to side with Argentina.



[edit on 4-4-2007 by ULTIMA1]