Iran & the British over-reliance on GPS for proof?

I wonder how folks feel about this one, it's British politics and a possible conspiracy all in one so see what you think of this......

British patsy's?

I was chatting over the recent events re the capture of the British Marines by the Iranians.
2 things niggle in this tale.

1) why was the armed RN helicopter cover, that is supposed to be automatic, not there - and why was that helicopter called away just before the Iranians came?
2) just how credible & secure is GPS?

I was reminded that the US military has complete control over the GPS system and an 'introduced' error of a mile or two is not exactly beyond the bounds of possibility.

No wonder Europe wants it's own GPS-type system.

It's not as if, er, shall we say, 'certain US administration & military elements' haven't been itching for a conflict in the area with Iran for a very long time.

The British tabloid treatment of Faye Turney has Jessica Lynch written all over it.......

.....and btw does anyone want to contrast the tabloid's description of the ("outrageous!" & "inhumane") Iranian treatment of the Marine captives being filmed eating or 'made' to wear a hijab in public with some real torture, like having electrodes attached to your b*ll*cks or 'water-boarding' etc etc at Abu Ghraib? .

There are a lot of people making a lot of heat and noise over this but I wonder if anyone seriously thinks this one won't end with a sensible and peaceful diplomatic solution (just like last time).......and might some in the US administration & military have tried to use the UK in this way?

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
1) why was the armed RN helicopter cover, that is supposed to be automatic, not there - and why was that helicopter called away just before the Iranians came?

Was it simply recalled to the ship or was it needed else where? Either way the commanding officer has a bit of explaining to do for his actions.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
I was reminded that the US military has complete control over the GPS system and an 'introduced' error of a mile or two is not exactly beyond the bounds of possibility.

Its completely possible for the US Military to enable selective availability and accuracy in GPS systems, wiki states that accuracy can be changed by up to a 100 meters to combat enemy GPS based defences and weapon system but I'm guessing that 100meters could easily be changed to a couple of miles.

Which could mean Iranian GPS had been temporary altered to trick them into acting, I say the Iranian GPS rather than the British GPS as if a conspiracy is true then the conspirators would want Iran to appear the fools rather than us Brits.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
No wonder Europe wants it's own GPS-type system.

The quicker it gets working the better, though we'll have to wait till 2012 for it to be operational, and its not even just a European project anymore, several other countries such as South Korea, China, Ukraine, Israel and a host of other countries are going to be members of the system.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
.....and btw does anyone want to contrast the tabloid's description of the ("outrageous!" & "inhumane") Iranian treatment of the Marine captives being filmed eating or 'made' to wear a hijab in public with some real torture, like having electrodes attached to your b*ll*cks or 'water-boarding' etc etc at Abu Ghraib? .

Parading them on television is against the Geneva convention though, not to mention the so called confessions by the kidnapped personnel no doubt under some for of coercion and I can't blame them, from what the MoD have said none of those kidnapped have recieved true counter interrogation training.


[edit on 30-3-2007 by UK Wizard]

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
I wonder how folks feel about this one, it's British politics and a possible conspiracy all in one so see what you think of this......

British patsy's?

I was chatting over the recent events re the capture of the British Marines by the Iranians.
2 things niggle in this tale.

1) why was the armed RN helicopter cover, that is supposed to be automatic, not there - and why was that helicopter called away just before the Iranians came?
2) just how credible & secure is GPS?

Do you have links that say the helo was called away that late? From everything I have read and heard so far says that it escorted them to the merchant vessel, then when they were on board, returned to the HMS Cornwall for 90 minutes. It was then sent back out after communications were lost with the "away team"

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey.....and btw does anyone want to contrast the tabloid's description of the ("outrageous!" & "inhumane") Iranian treatment of the Marine captives being filmed eating or 'made' to wear a hijab in public with some real torture, like having electrodes attached to your b*ll*cks or 'water-boarding' etc etc at Abu Ghraib? .

There are a lot of people making a lot of heat and noise over this but I wonder if anyone seriously thinks this one won't end with a sensible and peaceful diplomatic solution (just like last time).......and might some in the US administration & military have tried to use the UK in this way?

Well, the tabloids blow every story up as much as they can - if it's gonna sell papers, they'll print it. I don't read the papers and only watch the news if something is happening as they speak. I think comparing wearing a hijab to actual torture is extreme. I don't think she SHOULD be wearing it though, forcing their religion and customs onto someone from outside that country with different beliefs.

I'm sure the press are saying "How mad would THEY be if we made everyone wear item A, or obey custom B", just in a "GRRR Let's Get 'em!" attitude.

I hold out hope things will end in a peaceful, diplomatic way. Nothing outside of people making their opinions heard has hinted towards any military action.

Originally posted by Muppetus Galacticus
Do you have links that say the helo was called away that late? From everything I have read and heard so far says that it escorted them to the merchant vessel, then when they were on board, returned to the HMS Cornwall for 90 minutes.

- I'm tempted to call this 'The curious case of the disappearing Lynx helicopter'.

This arrived with the boarding party as standard procedure to provide "top cover".
The MOD Briefing mentions only that it "returned" to the scene of the crime (pictures of GPS over anchored (un-named vessel) to validate GPS data - which in picture are actually variant from figures given in briefing).

Mark Urban on Newsnight last night, the mouthpiece for the MOD, said it returned for refuelling to the Cornwall, some few miles.
One has to ask, does the Navy regularly go out on sorties with inadequate fuel for the completion of the mission leaving their boarding parties without "top cover" ?

I hold out hope things will end in a peaceful, diplomatic way.

- You and me both.

I think it's also only fair to note the Iranian claim here (cos it has been used to confuse matters).
The Iranians say that this is not the first time British navy has violated Iran’s waters.
The media in UK is reporting that Iran first supplied them with one co-ordinate and then gave a different one.
But the truth is that Iran has actually already supplied them with 4 co-ordinates in which British boats entered Iranian waters, in 4 different times and places; it was only at the last location that they were captured.
The previous time in which 9 soldiers were captured UK admitted and accepted that this would not happen again.

This from the Guardian is interesting and notes the long-running dispute over those waters.

One can also get into where and how these kinds of boundaries are drawn, high-tide coast lines, low-tide, moon phasing etc etc -

In London, Vice Adm. Charles Style said the British boats were seized at 29 degrees 50.36 minutes north latitude and 48 degrees 43.08 minutes east longitude. He said that position had been confirmed by an Indian-flagged merchant ship boarded by the sailors and marines.

But the position, outside the Shatt el-Arab waterway in the Gulf, is an area where no legal boundary exists, leaving it unclear whose territory it lies in, said Kaiyan Kaikobad, author of ``The Shatt al-Arab Boundary Question.''

``What we do have is a de facto state practiced boundary - a line both countries have been observing on the spot,'' he said. ``The problem is that though the British have drawn a line where they claim the de facto line is, we haven't seen an Iranian version.''

www.guardian.co.uk...

Only Iraq and Iran can agree their bilateral boundary, and they never have done this in the Gulf, only inside the Shatt because there it is the land border too.


[edit on 30-3-2007 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
1) why was the armed RN helicopter cover, that is supposed to be automatic, not there - and why was that helicopter called away just before the Iranians came?

As far as I've heard, it's standard procedure. The helicopter escorts the boarding party to the boat, hangs around for a few minutes to make sure everything is going ok (remember, they're searching civilian vessels) then returns to the HMS Cornwall when the sailors and marines are safely aboard. The Royal Navy personnel were captured when leaving the ship an hour and a half (ish) later - might not be worth the helicopter staying around that long? Especially as the Cornwall is only a couple of miles away. I'm not sure.

From what i can work out ..this one is a bit of a puzzler with a lot of mis-leading information being pushed about.

I have heard as one poster has said that the Helicopter to refuel, but i did hear that "another helicopter" would normally been sent to "cover" but this one was already in use elsewhere?

The GPS, i think is more than fairly accurate to within around 150yds?

The so called boundries and territorial waters DO NOT exist!
There has never been any lines drawn up, even with the 10yr revision that is supposed to take place.
This is something that both iran and iraq have never been able to agree on.

So how the hell the MoD come up with these so-called boundries is beyond me?

So what if a few "honda cars find their way illegally into iran/iraq" why are our service men and women put in danger like that?

Personally, i dont agree with and as another poster has already said , its against the Geneva Convention, that iran paraded those service personell on TV, making them wear hijabs, ok so its not physical tortue but its mental torture!!

Lets just wish for a safe return for all of them!!

Originally posted by Ste2652

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
1) why was the armed RN helicopter cover, that is supposed to be automatic, not there - and why was that helicopter called away just before the Iranians came?

As far as I've heard, it's standard procedure. The helicopter escorts the boarding party to the boat, hangs around for a few minutes to make sure everything is going ok (remember, they're searching civilian vessels) then returns to the HMS Cornwall when the sailors and marines are safely aboard. The Royal Navy personnel were captured when leaving the ship an hour and a half (ish) later - might not be worth the helicopter staying around that long? Especially as the Cornwall is only a couple of miles away. I'm not sure.

Logic would say yes.

If you were going to attack a British ship to sink it, would you:
A) Do it when the grew was there.
B) Do it when they are busy on another ship?

If anything, the Helicopter should be there to cover and protect them.

Would that not be what you'd do?

After the last 'incident' one might have imagined it reasonable to think the Lynx would be around as top-cover for as long as the boarding party were on board the ship being inspected.
Strange.

Interesting how the UK news is starting to play this one here now; it seems to me that there is lots more about the Iranian claims and the disputed (and still unsettled) boundary between Iraqi and Iranian waters (by which I mean at least this is being mentioned even if it is not discussed in any depth).

I'm not at all sure that these 'tensions' aren't going exactly to plan, they (and a convenient accompanying Nigerian scare a week or two earlier) just stopped the price of oil sliding back under $55/barrel after the mild winter.

I suggest folks watch the price of oil and how everytime it looks like the underlying facts indicate it ought to be heading lower there's an excuse for the oil market to raise or keep prices high - and all of this despite a level of supply which has not been cut since it was raised a few months back.

I'm far from convinced that Iran isn't a very convenient bogey-man and that the current high oil price situation is very welcome with several Govs around the world.

[edit on 23-4-2007 by sminkeypinkey]

Well after almost 2 weeks it looks as if this little drama has drawn to a close -

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad says 15 British naval personnel captured in the Gulf are free to leave.

He repeated Iran's view that the British sailors and marines "invaded" Iranian waters, but said they were being released as a "gift" to Britain.

They are expected to fly home to the UK on Thursday.

British Prime Minister Tony Blair said he was "glad" to hear the news, which he said would come as "a profound relief" to the crew and their families.

Iranian media said the British crew members "shouted for joy" on hearing the news.

Television pictures showed the Iranian president smiling, chatting and shaking hands with the crew at the presidential palace in Tehran.
He joked to one: "How are you? So you came on a mandatory vacation?"

The Britons were wearing suits, rather than the military uniform and tracksuits they wore in previous pictures. The one female crew member, Faye Turney, wore a blue headscarf and jacket.

An unidentified crew member said: "I'd like to say that myself and my whole team are very grateful for your forgiveness. I'd like to thank yourself and the Iranian people... Thank you very much, sir."

Mr Ahmadinejad responded in Farsi: "You are welcome."

- Interestingly it looks as if there are some wider implications to this too -

Prime Minister Tony Blair said Britain's approach to the crisis had been "firm but calm - not negotiating but not confronting either".

He did not thank or address the Iranian president, but said to the Iranian people: "We bear you no ill will. On the contrary, we respect Iran as an ancient civilisation, as a nation with a proud and dignified history.

"The disagreements we have with your government we wish to resolve peacefully through dialogue. I hope - as I've always hoped - that in the future we are able to do so."

The solution to the crisis - freeing the Britons while rewarding the Iranian commanders of the operation - appears to be a face-saving compromise, says the BBC's Frances Harrison in Tehran.

She says speculation is likely to continue over whether it had anything to do with developments in Iraq, where an Iranian envoy has reportedly been given access to five Iranians captured by US forces, and where a kidnapped diplomat was released on Tuesday.

Earlier on Wednesday Syria revealed that it had been mediating between Iran and the UK over the sailors and marines.

IRANIAN VERSION OF EVENTS
1 Royal Navy crew stray 0.5km inside Iranian waters
2 Iran gives set of co-ordinates to back up their claims
3 According to seized GPS equipment, the Royal Navy crew had previously entered Iranian waters at several other points
4 Iran informs Britain of the position where the crew were seized, inside Iranian waters

news.bbc.co.uk...

- But I'll still be looking out for the next 'new reason(s)' to justify and sustain the present ridiculous level of oil prices in the face of the world glut now on.



[edit on 4-4-2007 by sminkeypinkey]

Like someone said elsewhere "I will be sending the Iranian Embassy my TomTom to avoid future problems".

Regards

I'm sure the UK military has access to the more accurate encrypted signal from the GPS. Plus, according to the Wiki article, the unencyrpted civilian signal is now set at zero error anyway, although the U.S. military does have the ability to mess with that if needed.

I'm absolutely sure the British GPS equipment was giving perfectly accurate locations, and if the Iranians had one, they were most likely just as accurate.

GPS signals cannot be altered for one particular unit. You would have to alter the signal for the entire network. The unit itself just triangulates off signals provided to it, so everyone else using that same signal would be thrown off as well.

I would imagine the Iranians have just commercially available GPS, so everyone's Tom-Tom would have had to be thrown as well, otherwise what your suggesting would be a US tampering with the UK signal channel we use, which isn't cricket.....

Well it was all over a position only IIRC between 1.5 miles and 0.5 mile that was under dispute, that would surely be a pretty small variable to introduce - I doubt it would be difficult to do and for it to go unnoticed.

I'm inclined to think that that area is one of the world's most massive EM 'soups' right now & who knows what interference (directly deliberate or otherwise) effects there might be.

I'm also interested in how come there has been absolutely zero consideration or discussion given to the Iranian view & claims (and certainly no comparisons made between their maps and claims and ours) in our media.
Even the fact the waters have never been agreed and have been disputed for decades between Iraq and Iran has been barely mentioned.
That strikes me as very odd.

I don't for a moment condone the Iranians seizing British personnel in the way that they did - in fact that behaviour was illegal, they should have confronted the British forces and ordered them to leave Iran's sovereign waters and then escorted out of Iranian waters under international maritime law.
(Just as we used to do with Russian/WARPAC aircraft entering our airspace)

Sadly it looks like everybody stopped playing cricket in this a long time ago stu.
I'm far from convinced that there are not elements on 'our' side looking to provoke tensions.......although as I said I'm also pretty sure the idea is to influence the oil prices/returns/markets and not actually about territory out there.
Right now this 'tension' suits everybody and oil prices remain ridiculously high despite high levels of output/supply.

Israel will meantime seek to capitalise on whatever she can that's going on in the area but some folks get carried away (mostly from what I can see due to their anti-Israeli or anti-semitic prejudices) with the idea that the tail wags the dog.
It doesn't.

Even the fact the waters have never been agreed and have been disputed for decades between Iraq and Iran has been barely mentioned.
That strikes me as very odd.

Yes, me too, it`s common knowledge that it`s disputed territory therefore no-one can definitively state who was right/wrong.
The IMPORTANT point here is indeed that this fact went VERY widely unreported. W~HY??
I`m no CT nut, but we know that "War" is not only won on the battfield but in the hearts and minds of people. Keep your eyes open. While Iran doesn`t have a spectacular human rights record, they`re not the "uncivilised" society many in the west believe them to be at all. Also, we have a history of interfering in the politics of Iran, along with the US, to suit our economic interests. Why should they they not feel threatened, esp. as they have been labelled part of the "Axis of Evil" by Bush and his Neo-Cons, who we are hardly likely to disagree with.
The sooner that Britain and the rest of Europe stand up against US imperialism with a united front, the sooner all countries can work together as Sovereign states, respected for their various different cultures and religions without being subject to govt and media propoagandist lies or selectivity for the good of all Countries and peoples.

Most citizens are good people, it`s the politicians that seem to be dishonest and have vested interests in making sure we`re always at war.
It`s obvious, just look beyond the mainstream media and just beneath the surface and you will find the reality. Always keep things in context.