9/11 Radar Tracking

Originally posted by waynos
Well whoopy doo! Have a biscuit.

You proved something that was never in doubt in the first place and which nobody argued against but which I personally told you about (the Victor and its tanks).

What an achievement!

Well Zaphod58 stated they no large tankers carried wing tanks, i proved they did. I knedw about the Victor before you said it, i was stationed in England so i know about British planes.

Except the Victor is not a large tanker, like I said.

The Tristar is the only 'large ' tanker in UK service, it sits between the 757 and 767 in size and it does not carry wing tanks externally.

You know perfectly well that the point related solely to conversion of large commercial transports so please don't be obtuse.

I'm glad to hear you know so much about British planes, so you should know full well that no tanker conversion *ever* required the fitting of external wing tanks, including the Victor, and that is surely more to the point. rather than the fact that tanks that were already there simply need not be removed.

You are, after all, talking about what can be fitted, not stuff that was designed in from the start.

Originally posted by waynos
Except the Victor is not a large tanker, like I said.

So your saying the Victor is not a large plane. Do i need to post a photos and put some planes beside it to prove size? After all as you stated it was a bomber.

Oh and do not forget that during the Faulklands they converted Vulcan bombers to tankers.

AGAIN FOR THE LAST TIME, THE POINT WAS THAT THIER ARE TANKERS THAT CARRY WING TANKS. END OF DISCUSSION, POINT HAS BEEN PROVEN.

Ah, so, no response to my last point then. Yes, point proven indeed.

And no, they didn't convert Vulcans to tankers during the Falklands war. It was after it, and they still didn't fit external wing tanks. You proved nothing.

I don't need photos of the Victor, I've been in enough of them.

I already told you, it has a span and length of about 100ft. This is not large. Its large-ish, but much smaller than any of the planes we are talking about.

[edit on 30-3-2007 by waynos]

Originally posted by waynos
And no, they didn't convert Vulcans to tankers during the Falklands war. It was after it, and they still didn't fit external wing tanks. You proved nothing.

So you were there during the Falklands and know for sure that they did not convert Vulcans for tankers. What base were you stationed at ?

I will be wating for evidence if you can prove they did not convert Vulcans to tankers.

However, the acute shortage of tanker aircraft which arose from the Falklands campaign led to six Vulcans being converted to the air-refuelling tanker role. Designated Vulcan K. Mk 2 - initially B. Mk 2(K) - these aircraft had the ECM suite removed and a Mk 17B hose-drum unit fitted below the tail in a crude box fairing. The bomb bay was filled with three auxiliary fuel tanks. No.50 Squadron operated these aircraft between 21 June 1982 and 31 March 1984. Thus becoming last RAF squadron to operate the Vulcan.

www.aeroflight.co.uk...

•June 14: Gen Mario Benjamin Menendez surrenders to Maj Gen Jeremy Moore without the approval of Galtieri.

•June 17: Galtieri resigns.

www.telegraph.co.uk.../news/2007/03/13/wfalk113.xml

Sure looks like the Vulcan conversion came about BECAUSE OF but not DURING the Falklands war.

Ultima, I never said I was there, but neither were the Vulcans, they were in Ascension and the UK (and one in Brazil).

There were no Vulcan tankers commisioned during the Falklands camapaign, it happened afterwards (which is what I told you) when 50Sqn became the first and only Vulcan K.2 squadron. During the war itself we were too busy recovering Vulcan parts, such as refuelling probes and other items, from skips in order to allow enough bombers to be available to have any time left over to piss about with tanker conversions. These happened as a result of the Falklands war, when we realised we needed more tankers, not during it.

Either believe me or not on this as I don't give a toss as it is irrelevant to the thread and you are simply goading now.

[edit on 30-3-2007 by waynos]

Originally posted by waynos
There were no Vulcan tankers commisioned during the Falklands camapaign, it happened afterwards (which is what I told you) when 50Sqn became the first and only Vulcan K.2 squadron. During the war itself we were too busy recovering Vulcan parts, such as refuelling probes and other items, from skips in order to allow enough bombers to be available to have any time left over to piss about with tanker conversions. These happened as a result of the Falklands war, when we realised we needed more tankers, not during it.

I was there, i was stationed at RAF Alconbury from 1981 to 1983

Maybe you should do just a little more research.

www.vectorsite.net...

The Vulcan performed its last flight in bomber service in December 1982, when Number 44 Squadron stood down. The remote facility at Offutt AFB had been shut down in 1982 as well. That wasn't quite the end of the story, however. The Falklands conflict had strained tanker resources, and though the RAF was acquiring old Vickers VC10 airliner airframes for conversion into tankers, the lead times on the effort were too far out to deal with the immediate shortfall. "In 1982, the decision was made to hastily convert six Vulcan B.2s to an interim tanker configuration", using Flight Refueling Limited Mark 17B hose-drum units (HDUs) intended for the VC10 tanker program.

I did do more research, two posts up. The first Vulcan tankers were operated by No. 50 Squadron beginning one week after the recapture of Port Stanley, and the end of combat in the Falklands. The modification came about BECAUSE of the Falklands, when the RAF found out that they didn't have enough tankers.

[edit on 3/30/2007 by Zaphod58]

[edit on 3/30/2007 by Zaphod58]

Originally posted by Zaphod58
I did do more research, two posts up. The first Vulcan tankers were operated by No. 50 Squadron beginning one week after the recapture of Port Stanley, and the end of combat in the Falklands. The modification came about BECAUSE of the Falklands, when the RAF found out that they didn't have enough tankers.

So you think they did not use them in the Falklands ? Any proof?

You mean besides the fact that they said they didn't start using them until June 21st? Where's your proof that they DID use them. I've shown you where it said they didn't start using them until then. In fact it said the use of them in the Falklands was as a BOMBER not a tanker. The only refueling done by the Vulcans in the Falklands was taking on fuel through reconfigured, and hastily fitted refueling probes, from Victor tankers.

www.raf.mod.uk...

Yes, it was. Five "Black Buck" missions were flown; three against the runway at Port Stanley airport and two against Argentinean radar sites on the islands. For the anti-radar strikes, the Vulcan carried the American Shrike missile. All the Black Buck raids were flown from Ascension Island in the mid-Atlantic and, at the time, were the longest bombing missions in the history of warfare. Each covered a distance of some 8,000 miles, lasted around 16 hours and necessitated numerous air-to-air refuelling contacts with Victor tankers.

www.avrovulcan.com...

[edit on 3/30/2007 by Zaphod58]

Originally posted by Zaphod58
You mean besides the fact that they said they didn't start using them until June 21st?

I guess you missed the work hastily, wonder why they had to get them done so fast, oh maybe it was because they were in a war and needed them.

In 1982, the decision was made to "hastily" convert six Vulcan B.2s to an interim tanker configuration, using Flight Refueling Limited Mark 17B hose-drum units (HDUs) intended for the VC10 tanker program.


[edit on 30-3-2007 by ULTIMA1]

No, because all the information points to them only using Victors, and LATER converting six Vulcans to tankers as an interim measure until the VC-10 came into service. Where's your proof, other than you simply repeating over and over that they used them there, that they did? The only things I found about them point to the end of the war on June 14, and No 50 Squadron putting them into service on June 21 until 1984.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
No, because all the information points to them only using Victors, and LATER converting six Vulcans to tankers as an interim measure until the VC-10 came into service. Where's your proof, other than you simply repeating over and over that they used them there, that they did? The only things I found about them point to the end of the war on June 14, and No 50 Squadron putting them into service on June 21 until 1984.

I guess you missed the work hastily, wonder why they had to get them done so fast, oh maybe it was because they were in a war and needed them.

In 1982, the decision was made to "hastily" convert six Vulcan B.2s to an interim tanker configuration, using Flight Refueling Limited Mark 17B hose-drum units (HDUs) intended for the VC10 tanker program.

I guess you missed this.

The ‘Black Buck’ bombing operations have already been marked by a Corgi model of a Vulcan bomber, but the shortage of tankers after the Falklands operations meant the Vulcan was about to be adapted to a new role – a tanker! 101 Squadron disbanded on 4th August 1982, followed by 44 Squadron on 21 December, leaving 50 Squadron as the only Vulcan unit to survive into 1983 after its aircraft had received a new lease of life directly resulting from the War with Argentina.

www.aikensairplanes.com...

And again:

However, the acute shortage of tanker aircraft which arose from the Falklands campaign led to six Vulcans being converted to the air-refuelling tanker role. Designated Vulcan K. Mk 2 - initially B. Mk 2(K) - these aircraft had the ECM suite removed and a Mk 17B hose-drum unit fitted below the tail in a crude box fairing. The bomb bay was filled with three auxiliary fuel tanks. No.50 Squadron operated these aircraft between 21 June 1982 and 31 March 1984. Thus becoming last RAF squadron to operate the Vulcan.

www.aeroflight.co.uk...

Originally posted by Zaphod58

Need i say more!

***** However, the acute shortage of tanker aircraft which arose from the Falklands campaign led to six Vulcans being converted to the air-refuelling tanker role. *****

And as I have said, the Falklands LED TO THE Vulcan tanker, but they were flown AFTER the war. Show me what date they began flying them, and what squadron. Because No 50 Sqd which is the ONLY one to operate them, didn't begin operating them until June 21, 1982.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
And as I have said, the Falklands LED TO THE Vulcan tanker, but they were flown AFTER the war. Show me what date they began flying them, and what squadron. Because No 50 Sqd which is the ONLY one to operate them, didn't begin operating them until June 21, 1982.

Why do you think they needed to create tankers from the Vulcans, because they just wanted to have extra tankers. No, they needed them for war.

They needed them because the war proved to them that they didn't have enough tanker support. This was the fastest way they could make up what they didn't have.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
They needed them because the war proved to them that they didn't have enough tanker support. This was the fastest way they could make up what they didn't have.

So they did not need them for the war, they needed them after the war