A finite or infinite universe?

Do we live in a finite or infinite universe?

1) Dismissing the contradictory idea that everything is uncertain, let's assume for a moment that the universe/multiverse/whatever-you-want-to-call-it is FINITE. If something is finite then logic tells us that the concept of infinity is meaningless, as something without bounds cannot exist within something that is governed by bounds.

2) Conversely, if we mirror the previous statements then we arrive at the conclusion that in an INFINITE universe, things that are finite cannot exist. Does this make sense? I'm not sure it does.

For example, with regards to 1) the number '3.33 recurring' must eventually come to an end, as there is a limit to the space in which it can exist. With 2) unbounded, '3.33 recurring' can recur to its heart's content, there are no boundaries to prevent its perpetual recurrence.

Many of us believe that we live in a bounded universe, an expanse governed by rules and regulations, bringing with it the notion of 'design and purpose'.

The harsh reality of the theory of infinity however tells us (just as quantum physicists would lead us to believe) that the universe is a chaotic abyss without plan or animus.

Which idea is the most tangible?

Some of the points above raise serious questions. Does the number '3.33 recurring' really recur infinitely? If so, we are in fact living in an infinite universe. Or are we? What of finite numbers like ‘1’, ‘2’, ‘3’ and ‘4’? How can one attribute infinity to these oddities? Maybe these questions are beyond our finite (?) brains. Or maybe we are in fact living in a mind-bogglingly complex paradox...

Hi The Box.

I believe that the universe is made of pure potenciality, that is there is the potencial for everything, and there is an infinite number of possibilties.

However, that is not the same as saying there is infinity in the universe. It just means that all things are possible.

When a sculptor looks at a raw slab of stone and smiles, it's because he can already see the statue he will carve. In fact the sculptor doesn't create the sculpture, just chisels away the possibilities that the sculpture could be anything other than what he wanted it to be.

The universe works in a similar way. All that you see in front of you is ALL there is.
Looking a little bit further or deeper and the universe will adapt to your expectation..

The truth is that what we see without is generated from within.

The question should not be what are the boundaries of our universe; it should be what are the boundaries of our consciousness??

All the best,

NeoN HaZe.

Yes it’s the same as saying an artist traces the imagined image on a blank canvas...

Maybe the universe isn’t anything physical, but the culmination of our collective consciousnesses.

There has to be infinity. I dont believe in nothing. You would need "nothing" in order to have a finite universe. I do believe there was something before the universe too, not nothing. There could have not been nothing, we had to come from somewhere.

Originally posted by R3KR
There has to be infinity. I dont believe in nothing. You would need "nothing" in order to have a finite universe. I do believe there was something before the universe too, not nothing. There could have not been nothing, we had to come from somewhere.

Nothing in itself is something. The fact that it is describable in layman’s terms gives it some kind of substance. My pink, pulsating blancmange (brain) has difficulty with the idea of non-existence.

[edit on 19/3/07 by thebox]

the Equation 0.9999999999...=1 tells you that small infinity is equal to greater infinity.
I think that we are a whole in this infinite.
Right now we are in a dream state.
If the infinite did not exist why would we live?

Originally posted by piacenza
the Equation 0.9999999999...=1 tells you that small infinity is equal to greater infinity.
I think that we are a whole in this infinite.
Right now we are in a dream state.
If the infinite did not exist why would we live?

I'm just trying to ascertain which alternative is the most tangible. Infinity, in its random/chaotic state promotes a lack of reason and purpose, but a finite universe that seems to be riddled with reason and purpose, is also pointless if it is all to come to an end.

Do we assume that either way, existence is everything BUT allusive?


[edit on 19/3/07 by thebox]

Originally posted by piacenza
the Equation 0.9999999999...=1 tells you that small infinity is equal to greater infinity.
I think that we are a whole in this infinite.
Right now we are in a dream state.
If the infinite did not exist why would we live?

Ok remember....
There is just as many negative numbers as there is positive.
So from

it never stops....-2inf.....-1inf........0.......inf1.......inf2.......inf3For infinite and never stops.

the only finite its in our brain, more like an illusion and a state of mind of our infinite.
The infinite delimits and defines the finite making it infinite
(sorry for my English)

The universe in finite, its a big bubble (if you will) of matter in an infinite size of space.

space and the universe are two different things, the universe is everything around us, the stars, the planets, the computer your typing on and the stuff we cant see. Space is nothing, its the void the universe expands into and as far as we know its infinite, that said since space is a word that describes nothing how can space be infinite if it doesn't really exist exist? You could I suppose then come to the conclusion that the universe is finite and space doesn't exist, if you can comprehend non-existence that is, but most cant which is why most thing of space as an infinite void of empty space rather than simply nothing.

of course I could be completely wrong until we find the edges of space we can only assume its nothingness continues on indefinitely.

if you take two mirrors, and place them exactly face to face, dont they reflect forever back and forth? can the universe really have an end? what if you drove a spaceship into the end of the universe? what would happen? mabey it does go on forever, but at the end of the ever expanding universe, mabey you cant go any further untill the pressure of a vacume lets you go through based on your mass.

nothingness continues on indefinitely=infinite

Originally posted by ChilledVoodoo
can the universe really have an end? what if you drove a spaceship into the end of the universe? what would happen?

What would happen? nothing significant, you would leave the universe and continue through empty space. Like I said (maybe people just mix up what the universe and space are) the universe is just a big object (if your to treat all matter in the universe as a single object) in the void of nothingness that we call space, the universe expands into space.

Assuming you can accurately calculate within a reasonable tolerance the edge of the universe and you can get there you could leave the universe.

Perhaps within the chaotic infinite there is ordered finite. Being able to "order finite(verb) sections of the chaotic infinite" I suppose answers your question? Well back to work I guess,

Peace,
- Naz

I think the universe as we know it is finite, however the "space" beyond that is infinite. What do you think?

it does not matter if its space or universe or nothingness thats infinite because its still infinite even if its nothingness.

If the universe its finite at the end of it you will have this:



But its actually impossible to think about it because you will get insane

wow, piacenza, that was some deep stuff. but that doesnt answer my question

what you wrote cant be.

Asking this kind of questions really bring up the notion that we do not know that much.

But it sound like koan ( what is a sound of one hand clapping?) so we can stretch our mind from time to time.

So... suppose we are in a circle - so although it constitute a finite space the motion could go indefinitely...round and round.


Or - like this gorgeous Escher Mobius band:






[edit on 20-3-2007 by blue bird]

[edit on 20-3-2007 by blue bird]

OK, the one thing most of us our sure of is the idea that we don't know anything. That said, we have to use what we assume we know to answer questions that our seemingly beyond our comprehension.

Some us of may believe that the universe was formed by a big bang; a battle between matter and antimatter. In this case, the scientists responsible for the theory know only too well that there were things in existence (matter and antimatter) before the big bang causing it to happen in the first place.

This in my opinion is why science is so similar to religion; facts based upon assumptions.

Personally, I feel the 'theory' of infinity is the most tangible theory around.

Infinity is all around us. As ChilledVoodoo mentioned, if you place two mirrors face to face, it is assumed that the image is reflected infinitely. How can this be in a finite universe? Or does it in fact come to an end? Could it be possible that each reflection represents some kind of alternate reality?

[edit on 20/3/07 by thebox]