"The Whole Silly Flood Story"

Originally posted by someguy0083
I think people forgot how the flood story came to be. The flood story came from the old testament. As we all know (i hope), the old testament was originally passed via oral tradition by jewish nomads in the middle east. There is evidence that there was a major flood in ancient middle east that completely covered the entire area. To a person who saw the flood (the jewish), this was their "world." They didn't know anything about America or other areas. Furthermore, there was evidence that people got on boats and took their animals with them during the flood.

So the flood story could have been true but not on the global scale as told. In my opinion I would completely ignore the entire old testament. It was originally oral tradition passed from person to person via Jewish or Sumerian, translated to latin, then eventually to English. It could have been the entire world or it could have been the middle east, we will never know because it wasn't documented during the time.

And that's the main poing we tried to make throughout this thread, but some people keep on insisting it was a global flood...even if it's physically impossible and even though there's ZERO objective evidence of a global flood

reply to post by MrXYZ


You know I wonder if the flood was global or not. I think we all know the bible/jewish version of the great flood. There is also a version in buddhism/hindu? I remember the mayans having a similar story.

But who knows. Maybe at the end of the ice age, the ice caps could have melted and flooded the world

Originally posted by someguy0083
Maybe at the end of the ice age, the ice caps could have melted and flooded the world

No. There's not enough water in this planet for a global flood. According to this article, even if all the ice in the world melted, the sea level would rise by 61 meters the most. That's hardly enough to cover the entire Earth, as mean land elevation is something like 900 meters. In absentia of any evidence for a global flood, as well as the sheer impossibility of it due to lack of sufficient volume of water on this planet, arguing for a global flood is downright idiotic.

Originally posted by someguy0083
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

You know I wonder if the flood was global or not. I think we all know the bible/jewish version of the great flood. There is also a version in buddhism/hindu? I remember the mayans having a similar story.

But who knows. Maybe at the end of the ice age, the ice caps could have melted and flooded the world

Those cultures you listed didin't even live around the same time.

And we KNOW there wasn't a global flood because A) there isn't enough water on the planet to submerge the entire planet and still keep the air breathable, and B) there is ZERO geological evidence of a global flood, only local floods.

Originally posted by MrXYZ

Originally posted by Sparta
Sorry didn't have the time to read through 19 pages but I thought I'd get this in, if you do the research there is much evidence to prove that there was a great flood, just the main one I'd quickly get in is the bloody hundreds of cities beneath sea level now.. Japan, Cuba, all over the Mediterranean.. plus more just do a good hour of research and hell even just on here you can find a crap loads of it..

As for the story of Noahs ark.. well I'm no Christian by any means but to me it just describes the flood from one mans perspective who happened to be religious, did he take every single animal on that boat.. I doubt it, maybe all the animals he could find and just umped himself up for a good story.. I'd believe that.

edit on 5-4-2012 by Sparta because: (no reason given)

You are confusing evidence of LOCAL floods with evidence for a single global flood. And those underwater cities are easily explained through plate tectonics.

I don't recall saying I thought there was a global flood.. I said it was a flood from one mans perspective, to him he may have thought it was a global flood perhaps? But thats not my idea.. I mean imagine all around him getting flooded how was he to know of Europe or anywhere else being affected, he didn't have the knowledge we do of the world, shape, landscape of it etc, so yeah he may have thought it was global.

To the tectonic plate shifts, i agree some of them were, but all of them? I'm not sure, thing is I'm no geologist but wouldn't this kind of activity destroy the cities? Some are still perfect almost (discounting the water erosion etc) I mean yeah it's easy to realize that the land moves without much looking destruction but stone cities would crumble, it wouldn't have taken much movement to destroy them, look at some destroyed cities through small earthquakes. Please give me some education if I'm off the rails with that idea, no expert in tectonic plate movements.

Originally posted by Sparta
To the tectonic plate shifts, i agree some of them were, but all of them? I'm not sure, thing is I'm no geologist but wouldn't this kind of activity destroy the cities? Some are still perfect almost (discounting the water erosion etc) I mean yeah it's easy to realize that the land moves without much looking destruction but stone cities would crumble, it wouldn't have taken much movement to destroy them, look at some destroyed cities through small earthquakes. Please give me some education if I'm off the rails with that idea, no expert in tectonic plate movements

Earthquakes happen at the edges of the plates. The plates move, but things on plates stay in place relative to them.

reply to post by MrXYZ


That's the thing I'm talking about, why on earth would all of these religion have a flood story? strange if you tell me

reply to post by someguy0083

Not all mythologies have flood stories, and those that have are usually connected. E.g. the Near East Flood myth probably started from the Babylonians and was later retold in the Bible and numerous other regional mythologies. Probably the same thing with the New World flood stories. A notable regional flood, that was later added to other regional mythologies. Even the Abrahamic God is in the end just a trans-mutated story of a God of an older civilization, just like the gospels are all derived from one original writing (Q-document). The life of Jesus has so many parallels with older myths as well. This taken together with the total lack of contemporary evidence for the existence of Jesus makes me doubt his existence even as a historical person..

Originally posted by rhinoceros

Originally posted by Sparta
To the tectonic plate shifts, i agree some of them were, but all of them? I'm not sure, thing is I'm no geologist but wouldn't this kind of activity destroy the cities? Some are still perfect almost (discounting the water erosion etc) I mean yeah it's easy to realize that the land moves without much looking destruction but stone cities would crumble, it wouldn't have taken much movement to destroy them, look at some destroyed cities through small earthquakes. Please give me some education if I'm off the rails with that idea, no expert in tectonic plate movements

Earthquakes happen at the edges of the plates. The plates move, but things on plates stay in place relative to them.

edit on 5-4-2012 by rhinoceros because: (no reason given)

Ah thanks mate, I guess that makes sense, I'll have to do abit of research.

Originally posted by rhinoceros
reply to post by someguy0083

 

Not all mythologies have flood stories, and those that have are usually connected. E.g. the Near East Flood myth probably started from the Babylonians and was later retold in the Bible and numerous other regional mythologies. Probably the same thing with the New World flood stories. A notable regional flood, that was later added to other regional mythologies. Even the Abrahamic God is in the end just a trans-mutated story of a God of an older civilization. The life of Jesus has so many parallels with older myths as well, that I find it likely that even historical Jesus never existed..

edit on 5-4-2012 by rhinoceros because: (no reason given)

Ok, seeing as all I see is people saying there are no proof of these floods etc, where the hell is the proof that they copied it? I mean it's almost disrespectful to there memory that we would assume that, this was their history written down, not copies and then lied about to make there culture sound better jeez and to call them mythologies is ridicules there not. Some yes I agree but not all.

Originally posted by Sparta
Ok, seeing as all I see is people saying there are no proof of these floods etc, where the hell is the proof that they copied it?

In the context of these texts. The Near East Flood Myth is basically the same story over and over again. Basically only the names of the Gods and their motives, as well as the ethnicities and names of the heroes vary. It's like if I copy pasted Lord of the Rings into a text file and then changed all the names of the heroes as well as some other fine details, and then tried to sell it as original content..

p.s. I'm almost certain you wouldn't have any problems with what I wrote above, if only the Biblical story was the oldest one, but it's not.

It's surprising how many "true believers" are unaware of this kind of things. Or maybe it's the reason why they are believers to begin with..

Originally posted by rhinoceros

Originally posted by Sparta
Ok, seeing as all I see is people saying there are no proof of these floods etc, where the hell is the proof that they copied it?

In the context of these texts. The Near East Flood Myth is basically the same story over and over again. Basically only the names of the Gods and their motives, as well as the ethnicities and names of the heroes vary. It's like if I copy pasted Lord of the Rings into a text file and then changed all the names of the heroes as well as some other fine details, and then tried to sell it as original content..

p.s. I'm almost certain you wouldn't have any problems with what I wrote above, if only the Biblical story was the oldest one, but it's not.

It's surprising how many "true believers" are even aware of this kind of things. Or maybe that's the reason why they are believers to begin with..

edit on 5-4-2012 by rhinoceros because: (no reason given)

Yeah true, but don't get me wrong mate, I do believe alot of stories are rewritten to other religions, such as Noah ark, very possible it is a retold story with different characters, I never said the Bible was the oldest example what so ever, I'm not a Christian, I've read the Bible and other ancient epics, including the Sumerian epics, my problem has nothing to do with the fact of the Bible being the first to tell it when I know for a fact it isn't because I research alot of history. Stories from the Hindu texts would not be retold stories from the Sumerians, or other middle eastern stories, same with the Chinese great flood, or the African great flood, or the Americas great flood, there are so many of them I don't have the time to write them all up but you can research it, I can't believe they all are retold from one source, afew of them no doubt. If we keep thinking that they do then all these cultures and religions are basically lying for their own benefit which I refuse to believe they all did it.

But to be fair I'm glad to hear this side of view about it. So thank you

Originally posted by Kailassa

Originally posted by JBA2848

The world-wide occurrence of marine fossils in high elevations can explain why stories of a great flood are found in the folklore or legends of ancient peoples in diverse places around the globe. It is understandable that primitive peoples had no other conclusion to draw than that a deep flood, one like no other in their experience, must have put those seashells way up there. They did not know about mountain building and the geological processes that can raise fossil-bearing, sedimentary rock strata to great heights.
antiquity.ac.uk...

It's sad to realise there are even people in a forum like this, people with access to the knowledge and understanding so many have worked to make available, who still cling to this primitive thinking.

And all because they believe in an omnipotent creator who will only allow those who deny scientific fact to enter heaven, and who will subject everyone else to "the final judgement" and then burn everyone but the chosen few in a lake of fire for eternity.

These people really have had the fear of god put into them.

It works two ways. You believe what others tell you is in scripture, and by doing so you totally discount the fact that the "fear" of God (reverance, in awe of, honour) has been purposely taken from you. Just as Hitler gave his citizens free radios so that they could regularly drink his poison to alter their beliefs, know that the world has been given the same today in subtle and non stop films and tv that constantly preach the beliefs of those who despise Christ. It's as subtle as the movie 2012 showing every Christian in prayer being wiped out whilst the elite rich board the Ark, the movie Paul portraying two Christians as gun-toting redneck hicks wearing a tshirt showing Jesus shooting Darwin, the word evolution in every documentary about life, etc etc etc.There's a new Noah's Ark being made, and the Jewish director, a Kabbalist, has stated in interviews that Noah should be portrayed as the greatest "environmentalist" of all time......millions of children will absorb this lie as truth, never knowing that the remembrance of the flood, IN ALL CULTURES, was to serve as a reminder of judgement.

The point is simple: we've all drunk the same poison often enough that it has affected beliefs. Christ Jesus has been purposelessly made into a joke, a bigot,a 'fairy tale', a hypocrite, a liar and a racist and once enough people actually believe it as truth, they will reject the author of salvation Himself. So my future persecutions will stem from people who drank so deeply of this poisonous brainwashing against God, that they threw Him away in exchange for lies and untruths that they never understood were given to them in the first place.

Jesus said ""If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first."

A once largely Christian nation is fast becoming a generation that hates Him. I know that you reject scripture and would rather believe what others have told you or that your science and logic are all that you need. You'd rather believe all Christians hate those things instead of the reality that many see God Himself in the physical laws and the universe. My plea is this - don't criticise others for beliefs in God and Noah's Flood as 'primitive beliefs' when you can't see that others have sold you a bill of goods that is worthless.

Originally posted by Sparta
I can't believe they all are retold from one source, afew of them no doubt.

They're not. That's not what I said. It's more about regional flood stories being told about in regional mythologies..

Originally posted by WhoKnows100
The point is simple: we've all drunk the same poison often enough that it has affected beliefs. Christ Jesus has been purposelessly made into a joke, a bigot,a 'fairy tale', a hypocrite, a liar and a racist and once enough people actually believe it as truth, they will reject the author of salvation Himself. So my future persecutions will stem from people who drank so deeply of this poisonous brainwashing against God, that they threw Him away in exchange for lies and untruths that they never understood were given to them in the first place.

What makes you so sure that the God stories aren't the original poison, made up to control people, and make sheep surrender their money and lives to the elite circle? Let me guess, you were told that God is real, and the Bible is the book of God because it says so? You know, most of us non-believers are non-believers largely due to the fact that we were NOT brainwashed in our youth to believe into stuff that can't be proven and is often even extremely absurd (talking snakes, flying camels, etc.). That's why I find it hilarious that in your opinion people are brainwashed against God. We were not constantly threatened in our youth of awaiting eternal misery unless we refused to believe in God

As a child I actually believed in God, maybe because I attended a church organized day care. I even used to pray. I remember we often sang God/Jesus related songs, but I don't recall things like sin or hell ever being discussed, although I remember being worried because my dad didn't belong to the church. It was only much later that I realized that both Santa and God probably didn't exist. Later still, I learned about objective facts, like e.g. the fossil record, and around that time many questions I had were finally answered. You know, we also had religion classes at school, although it was about all the major religions, and not just one particular sect of Judaism. In fact, religion was one of my favorite subjects. I think people who are only taught about one religion (as being an unquestionable truth) are being robbed of the great collective religious history of our planet..

The truth of the matter is that there was definitely not a global flood. If there was, then there would have been mass extinctions of land creatures during that time. There were several local floods. 10-12,000 years ago the glacial period was ending and there was plenty of flooding as polar caps melted. There was also most likely an impact event in the Indian ocean around 7000 years ago, which also probably fueled some of the bigger flood stories. Many of the flood myths originate from that area.

Reading quite a few of these bloggers i too have doubts about the way the bible is interpreted. The 1611 KJV tells us that the windows of heaven were opened and the depths of the earth spewed water upon the earth. This rendition of the bible does not say that it was a global flood. It may very well have been only a local flood.

According to the Jewish time line encyclopedia Noah's flood came in the year of 1656 after the creation of Adam. I do not believe that the entire world was inhabited at this time. If that be true then a smaller portion of birds and animals etc would have had to be kept in this ark. Even at this it is not said that all animals would be saved but only that seven of the clean beasts and two of the unclean beasts would be taken into the ark. Some scholars believe that beast and animals were two different meanings in their bible just as animals and cattle have two different purposes. In other words all cattle are classified as animals but all animals are not classified as cattle with Jewish understanding. Along with this thought is that all of this could mean that the unclean beasts were used for food beings that this took place long before Moses and the laws of sacrifice. In other words I never understood that all living creatures of flesh would be on that ark. Just beasts of that area.

As far as the water covering the earth is concerned. The bible tells us that waters rose 15 cubits and covered the mountains. So can we say that a mountain was not higher than 15 cubits at this time? If so then a mountain was but what we would call a small hill today of not more than twenty five or thirty feet. So in fact we may not have had a grand canyon or Mt. Everest in this area of the flood. Don't mean to be contentious but just thinking.
If this part of the earth had no tall mountains or deep gullies then some of what the bible is saying is true for that place and era.

reply to post by Seede

As far as the water covering the earth is concerned. The bible tells us that waters rose 15 cubits and covered the mountains. So can we say that a mountain was not higher than 15 cubits at this time? If so then a mountain was but what we would call a small hill today of not more than twenty five or thirty feet. So in fact we may not have had a grand canyon or Mt. Everest in this area of the flood. Don't mean to be contentious but just thinking.
If this part of the earth had no tall mountains or deep gullies then some of what the bible is saying is true for that place and era.

That simply wasn't the case...ever

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by Blue_Jay33

 

Again BJ, there's NO EVIDENCE that would support your claims. If what you say really happened, it would have left evidence behind.

You are making just as much sense as the people who say there is NO EVIDENCE to support the criminals behind 911. Just like 911, there is MASSIVE evidence that has been hidden by a huge cover-up.

The PROOF for this is EVERYWHERE but you don't see it because you are freaking BRAINWASHED.

It's no surprise that people on ATS are always screaming WAKE UP! OPEN your freaking EYES people!

It's the same story over and over again: EVIDENCE found and lost. It's a cover-up, trust me.

Absolutely, it's almost comical because of the absolute massive amount of evidence that just so "happens" to get lost over and over and OVER...

“the biggest cover-up in the history of mankind is the history of mankind itself”

“There are two histories: official history, lying, and then secret history, where you find the real causes of events.” ~ Honoré de Balzac

Quest for Death Valley Giants and the Cover Up

I asked about what happened to the full bodies and the older curator said University of Berkeley had came and taken all the giant skeletons away for study decades ago and this was all that had survived that grab. ...if you research into giants or other races they will end your career immediately, we are told to say it’s all 1800’s media fraud regardless of the evidence, in fact they think they have found a living tribe of Neanderthals in northernmost Canada, but I don’t know anymore about it, it’s pretty controversial, again if you ask questions you’ll be working at McDonalds tomorrow”. Source

Well, evidences abound, and this is one. I should say that there could be many more at hand, but when they have been found by Darwinians, they have been ignored, hidden or simply destroyed. Destroyed by those who later on demand such evidence. An example of this is the "mysterious" disappearance of more than 50 perfectly kept gigantic antediluvian skeletons (between 10-14 feet tall) found in a cave in Arizona. You may, or not, have heard that Mr. Samuel Hubbard, discovered remains of giants in a cave in the magnificent Grand Canyon of Arizona."Source

"...authorities ordered the skeleton and all the artifacts secretly reburied- and, of course, lost to the scientific study they deserved.” Source

"A cave full of giant skeletons was found by telephone employees near Santa Barbara, California. Unfortunately, the cave entrance was sealed shut before proper excavation could be conducted."

"A giant skeleton on Santa Cruz Island, California, was sent to the National Science Foundation in Washington, D.C., where it was promptly "misplaced". Source

"...authorities ordered the skeleton and all the artifacts secretly reburied- and, of course, lost to the scientific study they deserved.” Source

• A human thigh bone 8 feet 4 inches long from Mexico.

• Human skeletons unearthed near Palermo, Sicily, in 1548 and 1550, measuring 30 feet, 33 feet and 30 feet.

• Two human skeletons unearthed near Athens, Greece, in recent centuries (one 34 feet long, the other 36 feet long).

• A skeleton reportedly 29 feet in length found in 1456 near the Rhone River.

• A 19'6" human skeleton found in 1577 A.D. under an overturned oak tree in the Canton of Lucerne.

• 23-foot tall skeleton found in 1456 A.D. beside a river in Valence, France.

• A 25' 6 " skeleton found in 1613 A.D. near the castle of Chaumont in France. This was claimed to be a nearly complete find.

Almost beyond comprehension or believability was the find of the two separate 36-foot human remains uncovered by Carthaginians somewhere between 200-600 B.C.
Source

Originally posted by someguy0083
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

That's the thing I'm talking about, why on earth would all of these religion have a flood story? strange if you tell me

Not strange at all because those floods were all local floods happening AT DIFFERENT POINTS IN TIME.

reply to post by Murgatroid


Just so you know, the "giants" thing is a well known hoax

But if you get your "information" from sources like breadofbiblestudy.com, no wonder your brain is full of pseudo-science