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The Dogon Tribe Research Project

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posted on Dec, 19 2003 @ 03:16 AM
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Here it is folks, the sixth project of the research forum.

The goals:
* Proving the knowledge of the Dogon tribe wasnÂ’t brought to them by the western civilisation.
* Proving their knowledge was right.
* Showing the Egyptians belief was based upon the same as the belief of the Dogons.
* Showing the confirmation of the other religions that are present in Mali.

Members-

klain
siriuslyone

[edit on 5-5-2005 by ADVISOR]




posted on Dec, 19 2003 @ 09:46 AM
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sweet!!! now it's official


to give a quick bit of info for anyone interested-

Google-Dogon Tribe

some good info covering both sides of the story

"The earliest Egyptians believed Sirius - 'Sothis' - was the home of
souls that have crossed over. This belief is also shared with the Dogon. "







posted on Dec, 19 2003 @ 10:00 AM
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Hey Exdog, Phantomroyce and Advisor, just want to thank you guys for making this possible before I begin


Well let's look at some other basic information about the Dogontribe itself at this site In the 1930's they had knowledge about Sirius B and about Sirius C, the question however is, wether or not this information is given to them by Griaule & Dieterlen (the French antrophologists) themselves or by the western world.

Therefore we have to show the knowledge was already there before Sirius B was discovered and that the knowledge of Sirius C is correct (which is still not found).

The Dogontribe had also some knowledge about the moons of Jupiter and stuff, but that is not of big importance to this research. What is very important is the following Just take a look at this



Dogon religion is defined primarily through the worshiping of the ancestors and the spirits whom they encountered as they moved across the Western Sudan. The Awa society is responsible for carrying out the rituals, which allow the deceased to leave the world of the living and enter the world of the dead. Public rites include funerary rites (bago bundo) and the dama ceremony, which marks the end of the mourning period. Awa society members are also responsible for planning the sigui ceremonies, which commence every sixty years to hand on the function of the dead initiates to the new recruits.


While moving through the Sudan they encountered the ancestors, the Gods, which they say looked half-fish and came from Sirius.

So the basic information:
* They had knowledge from Sirius B and C
* They claim that it comes from their ancestors, which they met between the 10th and 13th century, and if that is true the knowledge wouldn't be given to them by the Western world or given by the Frenchman themselves.
* It is possible the information has been given by the western world and the Frenchmen.
* Their religion is based upon the ancestors and Sirius, especially the Sigui ceremony is very important.


[Edited on 19-12-2003 by LeenBekkemaa]



posted on Dec, 19 2003 @ 10:53 AM
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When we really want to get knowledge about the Dogontribe, in what they believe, and what are the so-called contradictions and stuff, there are no better sites then the sites of the sceptics.
This is one of the better sites of the scepticsand when we read this site we get a lot of knowledge about why all the fuzz is about the Dogontribe. We see the following arguments and statements of those sceptics against the knowledge of the Dogontribe.

* . Knowledge of their customs and beliefs comes from the French anthropologists Marcel Griaule and Germaine Dieterlen, who worked among the Dogon from 1931 to 1952. Between 1946 and 1950 the Dogon head tribesmen unfolded to Griaule and Dieterlen the innermost secrets of their knowledge of astronomy.
* Temple's answer, since espoused by Erich von Däniken (of course!), was that the Dogon were told by extraterrestrial visitors.
* . But in any case, Robert S. Harrington of the U.S. Naval Observatory has recently shown that planetary orbits in the "habitable" zone around Sirius, defined as the region in which water would be liquid, are unstable. So there are unlikely to be any amphibious beings living on planets in the Sirius system today, if indeed any such beings ever lived there.
* Life couldn’t evolve because of the gasses from Sirius B to A, the instable orbits and stuff.
* They would normally have paid the star no attention, because of the extreme unlikelihood of its supporting life. In April 1977 both radio astronomers listened to Sirius on different wavelengths, without detecting any artificial signals.
* These companions have male and female attributes, respectively. It seems that they are not to be interpreted literally as stars, but as fertility symbols.
* Is there any astronomical evidence that Sirius has more than one companion star? Some astronomers in the 1920s and 1930s thought they had glimpsed a third member of the Sirius system, but new and more accurate observations reported in 1973 by Irving W. Lindenblad of the U.S. Naval Observatory, Washington, D.C., showed no evidence of a close companion to either Sirius A or Sirius B.
* Perhaps one would forgive Robert Temple for believing that the Dogon had been visited by men from Sirius if their legend specifically stated so. But it does not!
* Indeed, in view of the Dogon fixation with Sirius it would surely be more surprising if they had not grafted on to their existing legend some new astronomical information gained from Europeans, picking what fitted their purpose and ignoring the rest.
* It is all too easy for Westerners to think of African tribes as isolated, uneducated, and ignorant. But the Dogon are not isolated.

And the sceptics make two other statements

The point is that there are any number of channels by which the Dogon could have received Western knowledge long before they were visited by Griaule and Dieterlen. We may never be able to reconstruct the exact route by which the Dogon received their current knowledge, but out of the confusion at least one thing is clear: they were not told by beings from the star Sirius.

The whole Dogon legend of Sirius and its companions is riddled with ambiguities, contradictions, and downright errors, at least if we try to interpret it literally.


There are no better sites to get knowledge of then the sites which say exactly the opposite then what you know. In short we have the following arguments:
* After Erich von Däniken visited mr. Temple he said the Dogon got the knowledge from the Nommo.
* No life is possible in the Sirius system, X-ray radiation, instable orbits, no liquid water…
* Radio astronomers didn’t find artificial signals.
* The Sirius system drawed by the Dogon isn’t to be taken literally as suns, but symbolical.
* Is there any astronomical evidence there is more then one companion star.
* Temple doesn’t specifically mention the Dogon coming from Sirius.
* The astronomical knowledge of the western world was crafted into their religion.
* They weren’t isolated.

It is however confirmed that the research by Griaule and Dieterlen took 21 years, and in the end they gave their knowledge away. Next to this the drawing which the Dogontribe made about the Sirius system is also visible on this site, which according to the sceptics has to be taken symbolically.

This post is just meant to give more information about the Dogontribe, and also about the arguments against their knowledge about the Sirius system. I have to say most sites of the sceptics use the same most important arguments as given above, and the main argument ofcourse is that the knowledge is given by the western world.


[Edited on 19-12-2003 by LeenBekkemaa]



posted on Dec, 19 2003 @ 10:57 AM
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in the attempt to disprove something, it's often that the skeptics too become believers

*popped in my head felt the urge to post it*


[Edited on 12-19-2003 by exdog]



posted on Dec, 19 2003 @ 11:03 AM
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I have also collected a large amount of tribal art for examination. Much can be found in a civilizations art, tools, clothing and wares.



Image Search-DOGON

[Edited on 12-19-2003 by exdog]



posted on Dec, 19 2003 @ 12:33 PM
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in the attempt to disprove something, it's often that the sceptics too become believers.

That’s absolutely true
but the same is for the people which try to prove something
and the arguments the sceptics give are valid, and not really pushed over the edge or something, the arguments they give are reasonable questions which every person could ask.

* However some of the arguments can be proven invalid, because they aren’t really reasonable if you look closer at the facts. Radio astronomers didn’t find any artificial life in the Sirius system, nor do they at the 100 billion other stars in our galaxy. Is it a reasonable argument to say astronomers didn’t find artificial life at the Sirius system, and that therefore there is no advanced life? After tens of years searching the whole universe we didn’t even find artificial signals. Next to this, if the Nommos visited the Dogontribe, we have to admit their technology is more advanced then ours, and therefore we might not even be able to find the artificial signals they send into the universe. So it could be said that the argument concerning the artificial signals, isn’t really a strong one.

* The argument that Temple didn’t mention the Nommo coming from Sirius… well if we are going to look at it realistically, then we would have to say mr. Temple wrote a book about it called “the Sirius mystery”.

Interview with mr Temple

Let’s compare this to what we have seen on the site of the sceptics


Perhaps one would forgive Robert Temple for believing that the Dogon had been visited by men from Sirius if their legend specifically stated so. But it does not! Nowhere in his 290-page book does Temple offer one specific statement from the Dogon to substantiate his ancient astronauts claim. The best he does is on page 217, where he reports that the Dogon say: "Po tolo [Sirius B] and Sirius were once where the Sun now is." Of this ambiguous statement, Temple comments: "That seems as good a way as any to describe coming to our solar system from the Sirius system, and leaving those stars for our star, the Sun." But this cannot conceal the fact that the whole Sirius "mystery" is based on Temple's own unwarranted assumption.


People which look at the site with the interview and know mr Temple has written a book specifically about the Dogon religion and the connections to the Sirius system, know that what the sceptics say about “Nowhere in his 290-page book is something to find about the Sirius connection” not true, because the whole book is based upon it. The sceptics neither say the Dogontribe drawed where the Dogon said the Nommo came from, nor referred to the ceremonies which are held for the ancestors, the knowledge about Sirius, the passing through the Sudan, the masks which are made for the ceremonies to imitate the ancestors and so on.

It might be clear that the idea that Temple doesn’t say the Dogon believed the Nommo came from Sirius isn’t based upon anything, because of the book, the knowledge about the Dogontribe itself, Griaule and Dieterlen research and so on. Especially the connections between the Dogontribe and Sirius made them famous, and that’s not because Temple and the Dogontribe didn’t mention them, it’s because their whole religion, ceremonies etc. are based upon them.

* I would like to give a short commentary to the insultive connection which the sceptics make between the coming of Erich von Däniken and the Dogontribe. Erich von Däniken came much later then when the research by Griaule and Dieterlen was made. That Däniken was there hasn’t any influence, nor does prove anything, because the research before in the 30’s already showed the knowledge of the Dogontribe. Erich von Däniken has nothing to do with it, because in the 30’s the knowledge was already proven to be there, including the ceremonies and stuff.

I have given answers against three of the arguments in this post, and it might be clear that those three arguments aren’t build on solid ground.
* Radio signals didn’t show artificial life.
In tens of years there hasn’t been found signals, and the signals are probably too advanced to find for mankind (because of the technology which the Nommo should have).
* Temple not mentioning, and Dogontribe neither.
Temple made a book about it, the Dogontribe confirms it, with their whole culture and religion.
* Erich von Däniken visited.
The research was done a lot earlier.


With the argument about Temple not mentioning the connections with Sirius and the Dogontribe not having such a religion, I wasn’t talking about whether or not the additional information about Sirius B was crafted into their religion, but about the fact that that argument isn’t true. The religion is based upon it, and Temple did mention it, because his whole book is based on it.

The religion of the Dogontribe is really there, and Temple did mention the connections with Sirius, therefore the argument concerning “not mentioning” it isn’t valid. The other argument about it being crafted into their religion however is another question. It stay’s possible (as they give as an argument) the knowledge was carved into their religion, the religion itself is however based upon Sirius and Temple does mention it, in the contrary to what the site of the sceptics says.



posted on Dec, 19 2003 @ 12:39 PM
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*rubs hands together*

Definately got the right Leader on this project


ps. I am busy today here at work, or I'd be a bit more conversational


[Edited on 12-19-2003 by exdog]



posted on Dec, 20 2003 @ 04:01 AM
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Thanks Exdog


There are still 5 arguments left for the sceptics which made this site. And yes, they are good arguments, but whether or not they are true, research will show. Well I will show one of the biggest arguments they use is invalid

* Is there any astronomical evidence there is more then one companion star

Sirius is known to have just one companion star, Sirius B. If you look at Nasa or any other university, they will confirm it. The sceptics put it like this Is there any astronomical evidence that Sirius has more than one companion star? Some astronomers in the 1920s and 1930s thought they had glimpsed a third member of the Sirius system, but new and more accurate observations reported in 1973 by Irving W. Lindenblad of the U.S. Naval Observatory, Washington, D.C., showed no evidence of a close companion to either Sirius A or Sirius B.
The whole Dogon legend of Sirius and its companions is riddled with ambiguities, contradictions, and downright errors.


That they saw Sirius C is just a claim those few astronomers made (of just one observatory). And observations in 1973 showed no evidence for a close companion to either Sirius A or Sirius B.

You might have seen at the site of the sceptics “Fall 1978”, but the arguments are still there today. Sceptics still have the feeling there is no reason to think Sirius has 2 companion stars, because they read sites with research in the year 1973, like this site. Let’s take a look at new research and information however.

Research Nasa 1983 The analytical techniques and results of a study of perturbations of binary stars that could signal the presence of invisible companion stars are presented. Ephemerides are provided for the Sirius invisible companion up to the year 2000. So in 1983 Nasa also already had the idea a second companion star would be present in the Sirius system, because of the perturbations.

Research Nasa 1995 Sirius has been discovered as double more than 130 years ago. From the beginning of our century up to now, observational as well as physical and dynamical indications lead to the hypothesis of the existence of a third body in the system. In this paper, we present recent orbital analysis of the binary Sirius A-B which, helped by numerical simulation of triple systems, strengthens the idea for the triplicity of Sirius: a tiny star could revolve in about 6 years around Sirius A. Finally, we discuss the possibility of direct detection for this suspected Sirius C.

* Yes there is astronomical evidence that there is a big chance Sirius C is present. So with this the argument that there is no reason or evidence to think Sirius C is there, becomes invalid. To bad those sceptics (of the “Skeptical inquirer”, a respected site for sceptics) don’t update their knowledge with new research.

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Next to this I would like to refer to this site R esearch in the year 2,000 to the Sirius system, by the Berkeley university Yes you read it correct new research in the year 2,000.



5. Conclusion

The careful study of the Sirius stellar field at a several years interval allows one to exclude the presence of a main sequence low mass ( ≥0.08M ) companion at a separation greater than 30 arcsec of the Sirius A-B binary. Only the most extreme case of a brown dwarf star comparable to Kelu-1 can be still undetectable. The most central region around the binary is however still unexplored. Even in the case of a long period companion, a significant probability exists that an eccentric orbit will bring the low-mass star at a projected distance closer than 30 arcsec, according to the orientation of the orbit in space. As a result of a numerical simulation with random values for the relevant orbital parameters, the probability is computed to be 10 −2 in the less favourable case of an object now at the maximal apastron distance for a representative orbit with a=230AU and e=0.9. This inner region could also harbour a short orbit companion which may be responsible for the suspected cyclic residual orbital variations. The orbital velocity of a close companion could prevent to use the proper motion discrimination such as used in this paper but the characteristics of the low and very low mass stars (luminosity and colours) are now sufficiently known to al- low a secure identification among background stars. The Sirius pair is unique in showing for Sirius-A the earliest stellar type among white dwarf companions together with a very unusual high mass among white dwarfs for Sirius-B. Those peculiarities are still largely unexplained and could possibly be in relation with the evolution of a more complex system including a yet undetected third star. It is clear that the study of the most inner part of the sky region around Sirius would require the use of the infrared bands to take advantage of the reduced contribution of Sirius A-B together with the increase flux expected from low mass stars in this range. These wavelengths also benefit from the new possibilities of adaptive optics now available


The region close to Sirius A is still not explored because of Sirius A having to much influence on the observations. The text also explains the third star seen in the 20’s as being possibly a background star.

* Observations are strongly affected by the central star strong contamination by diffusion, and a direct evidence of a companion is still extremely difficult to establish even with modern techniques

* Studies of Sirius orbital perturbations (Volet 1932, Zagar 1932), as well as more recent detailed analysis of the orbital residuals (Benest & Duvent 1995), have also led to a persistent claim of a possible 6 years periodicity.

So in the inner region there is most probably a third star, and that region is still unexplored, because of the influence of Sirius A. For regions 30 arcsec from Sirius A away, the chance however for a star is very small.

I hope I made it clear that the argument “there is no astronomical evidence that Sirius C is present” is invalid, because it is almost impossible for there not being a third star in the system, and it is near Sirius A.

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Let’s compare the knowledge we have now about the Sirius system to the knowledge of the Dogontribe.
Picture Dogon drawing from site of the sceptics

Dogon sand drawing of the complete Sirius system, after Marcel Griaule and Germaine Dieterlen. A, Sirius; B, po tolo, the object equated with Sirius B, shown in two positions; C, emme ya, the sun of women, equated with Sirius C; D, the Nommo; E, the Yourougou, a mythical male figure destined to pursue his female twin; F, the star of women, a satellite of emma ya; G, the sign of women; H, the sex of women, represented by a womb shape. The whole system is enclosed in an oval, representing the egg of the world.

You have to say Sirius C is drawed a lot closer then Sirius B (except for one part of the orbit of Sirius B). Don’t forget: when this information was given to the Dogontribe only a few astronomers of one observatory thought to have seen Sirius C, in 1983 Nasa began thinking about a possible Sirius C. So the knowledge about Sirius C wasn’t present, and the idea of a Sirius C existing was barely there. Still it is correct according to the research.

The knowledge of Sirius B could still (as they use as an argument) been given to them by the western world, however about Sirius C almost nobody thought. It may be concluded that the knowledge of Sirius C is correct, and the knowledge wasn’t there yet in the western world back then, so it couldn’t have been given to them, or at least, the chance is very very small (one observatory with a few persons).

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* Next to this I would like to give some other information about what Harvard university says.

By French anthropologists Marcel Griaule and Germaine Dieterlen, who in the 1930s and 1940s had studied the traditions and mythology of the Dogon the 30’s are the years from 1920 till 1929, instead of the start of the research in 1931 according to the site of the sceptics. This is however just a side-note.

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The above about Sirius C will be strengthened if it is proven (or at least proven to have a high chance to be the truth) if the knowledge about Sirius B would be proven to be not given to them by the western world, because therefore the knowledge of Sirius C would be proven to be just as old (no interfering of the western world, how small that chance of interfering also already may be, concerning Sirius C).

This post was to give new information about the triplicity of the Sirius system with new research, and to show there is a high chance of a third star in the system, and the Dogontribe were right, and the chance of getting the information from the western world is very very small, because the information wasn’t there yet really. The argument of “there being no astronomical evidence for Sirius C” is therefore also proven invalid.

The question remains whether or not the knowledge about Sirius B was given by the western world, and whether or not the drawing should be taken symbolically (an argument they use).



posted on Dec, 20 2003 @ 09:56 AM
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Let’s look first at the similarities between the tribes which are near the Dogontribe, which are visible at this site

*Dogontribe
* Mossi
* Nuna

Because of the difficult approach to these regions and the aridity of the climate, the Dogon have been isolated and hence were able to conserve their ancient religious habits and ways of making the necessary implements, their carvings. this in the contrary to the argument that they aren’t isolated at all. Perhaps it does now also makes sense only after about 18 years they gave their knowledge away. That isn’t because they are isolated.

This however is just a side-note let’s take a look at the similarities between the tribes.

* All those tribes have masks to imitate the ancestors, and to create order in the universe.
* The statues and masks do represent the ancestors, but also animals from the wilderness.
* Women don’t have got many rights, and men are superior.
* Connection between death, masks and the ancestors.

These are the most important characteristics so far.

But what is perhaps nice to know is the Dogontribe consists out of about 400,000 persons, and the Mossi out of 2,200,000 to 3,500,000 persons. The Dogontribe has been known because Griaule and Dieterlen did a 21 year lasting research to them (also visiting the neighbouring tribes by the way) but it doesn’t take away that the Mossi religion and the other religions have become less famous, even though their religion is also very interesting, and they are outnumbering the Dogontribe by far.

Mossi - Maintaining good relations with the ancestors and a variety of supernatural forces is a major concern of Mossi ritual and motivates art production in the region. Figures are used by the ruling class to validate political power, and masks are used by the conquered peoples to honour the spirits of the wilderness and control the forces of nature.

Also a similarity is the head of the ancestor figures. Just look at the statues which are visible on the site about the Dogon and the Mossi. The heads have mostly some sort of thing on their heads. That isn’t human, and one might say it is a human with a head-dress on. However those cultures explicitly say they are the ancestors.

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If we are going to say the ancestors were really there as being aliens from Sirius, then we would have to say that is some sort of thing on their head. Let’s take a look at some other statues.

Dogon ancestor

For the persons which have read the texts about the Dogontribe
Horsemen are remainders of the fact that, according to myth, the horse was the first animal present on earth. It looks like horses, and above the thing are the ancestors (again look at the thing on the head).

Dogon ancestor again

Does look like a primitive idea of a spacecraft, the horses being the things on which the spacecraft lands, and therefore the horses also being the first thing to touch the ground (and yes again the head).

Ofcourse the above is speculation, I know that as well, but you have to admit, when compared to the Dogonstory it does make sense. However it stays speculation (even though it could be very informative) and therefore I also would like to go to the following Mossi ancestor (12,500 Euro which is about 12,000 dollar as far as I know) from the 13th century and Soninke ancestor and again Soninke ancestor and Dogon ancestor

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You might not exactly realise why I give all this information, but let’s make a review. The statues with the ancestors are traceable to at least the 13th century, as I just showed you. This does mean the Dogontribe, the Mossi and the Nuna believed already in the ancestors before Griaule and Dieterlen came, so the story itself is true. The knowledge about Sirius C has been proven right with a very high chance to be right, and that knowledge wasn’t given by the western world. However now comes the part: the masks and statues which are traceable back to the 13th. Century are also used at the Sigui ceremonies which are for the ancestors and the Sirius system. The whole Sigui tradition was for Sirius and the ancestors, and because the masks and statues can be traced back till the 13th century, one might say (with solid ground) the Dogon already knew about Sirius B long before the western world did.

Knowledge Sirius B in the year 1290
Knowledge Sirius B according to professor
Also take a look again at the interview with mr Temple which I gave before.

* Masks dating back to 13th century are related to Sigui ceremony which is related to the ancestors and Sirius B.
* Tribes have similarities.
* Ancestors have thing on their heads, and perhaps a spacecraft.
* Knowledge Sirius C was present, why wouldn’t about Sirius B?

* And I would also like to make a personal statement of information which is perhaps offtopic but for the ones which think the Dogontribe are an exception with their Gods coming from the Sirius system… every religion says the Gods came from the Sirius system. So the Dogontribe isn’t an exception to the rule.

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Next to this I would like to let you take a look at the following statement from This site
The Nuna have no system of chiefs or other political leaders, although the French attempted to create such centralised power during the colonial period. Perhaps tribes don’t let other information be crafted into their religion as gladly as the sceptics like to think they do. Perhaps they do like to keep their way of life, their religion and stuff, just like Christians don’t want Buddhism to interfere. This is however a side-note.

Egyptian Gods it is time to make a second connection with the Egyptians (as Exdog already made the first one
) And I think most people will see directly, the thing on the heads of the Gods, just like the tribes of the Dogon, Mossi etc. Next also look at the Gods themselves and compare them to the information given before:

* The statues and masks do represent the ancestors, but also animals from the wilderness.

The animals and the things on the heads are already two very specific connections between the Egyptians and the tribes. I would also like to quote information from the site about the Nuna: The Nuna make masks in the form of animals who often differ only in the shape of their horns and ears: buffalo, crocodiles, antelopes, warthogs, hyenas, and serpents. They differ in the horn and the ears because those are the things which are different, just look at the Egyptian Gods. Also you see the crocodile Egyptian God.

Also look at the blue thing behind the head. Almost every Egyptian God has got them, and then look at this statue of the Dogontribe for example.

Dogon ancestor

As you might have noticed at the other statues, the things on the head are not the only thing, but also behind the head it is often also present. Next to this you could also take a look at this website.

named the Dogon, since they migrated from Libya an undetermined amount of time ago.
Of supposed Egyptian descent, they carry to this day a distinct mythology heavily rooted in astronomy.


Some other similarities between the Dogon and Egyptians
* Isis the motherGod is also associated with Sirius, just like the Nommo (also look at the Shafts of the Egyptian pyramids as Exdog already showed in his picture).
* The Dogontribe believes the Nommo were created by another God called Amma, and in Egyptian mythology Isis (Sirius) was also the Daughter of the God Geb and Nut. The creators (the Nommo’s and Isis & Ra) were the creators, but not the highest Gods. Both the Dogon and the Egyptians have that too in common.

I think these are enough similarities to put in one post, and I don’t know if I will post again today, because I have a friend of mine celebrates his birthday so (yes offtopic I know)



[Edited on 20-12-2003 by LeenBekkemaa]

[Edited on 20-12-2003 by LeenBekkemaa]



posted on Dec, 20 2003 @ 12:58 PM
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Oke, just one look at another argument today. The argument that the Dogon drawing should be taken (obviously) symbolically. It seems that they are not to be interpreted literally as stars, but as fertility symbols. Nowhere is this better shown than in a Dogon sand diagram of the complete Sirius system, shown in the illustration redrawn here from a paper by Griaule and Dieterlen.

The clearly symbolic Dogon drawing

Well first of all, Harvard and all the other universities don’t try to explain the astronomical knowledge of the Sirius system because it is so clearly symbolical. Next to this the traditions and knowledge concerning Sirius isn’t very symbolical neither.

The Dogon referred to a small and super-dense companion of Sirius, made of matter heavier than anything on Earth, and moving in a 50-year elliptical orbit around its parent star.

The above text is information of the same sceptics site as which says it is clearly symbolic. Super-dense companion (which means also “smallest seed”) with an 50- year elliptical orbit, with 3 stars explicitly mentioned, and where the aliens came from, doesn’t seem symbolical.

Next to this we could also give explanations about the drawing not being symbolical:
* If you look you will see there is a line between the stars and fertility.
* A satellite and the 3 stars of Sirius are mentioned.
* Both times when Sirius B is drawed it is very close at the line which is the orbit of Sirius B.
* Sirius C --- Emma ya means the “Sun of women”.
* Sirius A is clearly visible, just like Sirius B and C.

Therefore the argument that Sirius should be taken symbolically isn’t valid.


[Edited on 20-12-2003 by LeenBekkemaa]



posted on Dec, 21 2003 @ 05:21 AM
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Let’s take a look at another argument
* No life is possible in the Sirius system, X-ray radiation, instable orbits, no liquid water…

Stellar evolutionary theory tells us that the most massive stars burn out the quickest, so that originally Sirius B must have been the more massive of the two, before burning out to become a white dwarf.

Probably Sirius B spilled over some of its gas onto Sirius A during its aging process, so that the original masses of the two stars were approximately the reverse of what we see today.


I will be back to the two quotes above, but first the following. While calculating whether or not water would be liquid, the orbits would be instable and such, they didn’t calculate Sirius C with it. Are we going to look at the Dogon drawing, then the Nommo are drawed close to Sirius C. So with all the arguments given about water not being liquid, X-ray radiation, instable orbits, Sirius C hasn’t been taken into account. So the arguments of water not being liquid and stuff are not valid, because those calculations are made with the two known stars (while the Nommo are with the third star), therefore the water for example could be liquid because of Sirius C.

Next to this we don’t know anything about the atmosphere of the planet on which the Nommo life.

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And now comes another interesting part, the idea that it would be impossible because Sirius B became a red giant, transmitted gasses to Sirius A, the masses were the reverse… But we have to say Sirius B has been a cooling down dwarf for at least 30 million years now. Advanced life probably couldn’t exists with evolution that fast (looking at earth). However all the arguments given above come to an end when the following is taken into account.

* The Dogontribe believes the Nommo were created by another God called Amma, and in Egyptian mythology Isis (Sirius) was also the Daughter of the God Geb and Nut. The creators (the Nommo’s and Isis & Ra) were the creators, but not the highest Gods. Both the Dogon and the Egyptians have that too in common.

We were created by the Nommo thousands of years ago according to those tribes and the Egyptians, and the Nommo came from Sirius, just like Isis, but the Nommo and Isis were also created by other Gods. So just as well as the Egyptians believe they were created, Isis was too, by other Gods. This would mean that the creators of the Egyptians, the Dogontribe and the other nearby tribes, were also put on that planet, just as they believe they were. The Gods being the aliens, the Nommo would also have been made on that planet by other aliens (Amma). All the arguments concerning the impossibility of life being evolved become invalid, because according to those tribes and civilisations they weren’t evolved in natural way, nor did the Gods which created them.

All the arguments concerning “not being able to letting life evolve” become invalid because it wasn’t the natural way. And the Egyptians and tribes saying a few thousand years ago the Nommo created the universe and mankind, 30 million years would probably be enough to let the Nommo evolve.

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I would also like to go further into the God which created the Gods which created us.

Egyptian book of the death
O thou First, Great God (PAUTA), who didst come into being of thine own accord.

The first great God of the Egyptians came into being of his own account, so he wasn’t created. This is very supportive for the statements made above because it shows that the first God did evolve on his own (he had no creator), and then made other beings.

Also take a look at this Khepera
Khepera the creator of the Gods. [Thy] mother Nut stretcheth out her hands, and performeth an act of homage to thee. I have never knew how exactly to interpreted this one, because here we have the following “Isis was the daughter of the God Geb (Earth) and the Goddess Nut (Sky)”. Khepera was the daughter of Nut, and created all the Gods. Only Isis was also a daughter of Nut, so she wasn’t created by Khepera. Is it a third level of hierarchy, Khepera being created by Nut and he creating Isis and the other God. But that doesn’t make sense because Isis is the daughter of Nut. Next to this “Isis is the feminine archetype for creation - the goddess of fertility and motherhood”. Isis and Ra created us, therefore the goddess of creation, but could be concluded that Khepera also made Isis and Ra?

We have the following.
Nut says Khepera (the son) made the Gods, those Gods made mankind. Isis and Ra made mankind, and Isis and Ra certainly didn’t made the other Gods. Mother Nut should have made the other Gods (if Isis didn’t do it, the mother did, as you expect because Isis also created us). But the mother says Khepera made the Gods which made mankind. From this I think concluding Nut making Khepera, and Khepera making the Gods (as is told), and the Gods (Isis and Ra) creating mankind (as is told) could be very right. However this would mean the following.

* Pauta creating Geb and Nut,
* Geb and Nut creating Khepera,
* Khepera creating the Gods (Isis and the Nommo from Sirius),
* The Gods creating mankind.

It’s the best I have been able to made out of it so far. Exdog and Phantomroyce, could you shine some light on me concerning your thoughts about the above
.



posted on Dec, 21 2003 @ 12:09 PM
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Part of the knowledge the Dogontribe gave Griaule and Dieterlen after the 15 years of investigation in the 30’s

This is a very informative site about the religion of the Dogontribe, and what happened in the past. I will give the basic lines of the story. It must be said it is very educational to read the whole text first (from the chapter “AMMA AND NUMMO PREPARE THE WORLD”) to get a better understanding about the symbolics used. A lot of things are symbolic, but after reading it a lot of things become clear. And making the basic lines clear in a short text wasn’t easy, so the text stays big.

In the 15th year of the research of Griaule and Dieterlen a messenger said Ogotemmêli, a blind elder, would give them the knowledge about architecture, textiles, iron work, agriculture, burial and marriage rituals, and a host of other practices commemorate the sacred events narrated in Dogon cosmogony.



Amma was there before anything was there and created the universe, the stars and the moon. Then he made the earth, the earth was female. Her vagina was an anthill, her clitoris a termite hill. Amma wanted intercourse with the female earth but the termite hill rose up. Amma cut down the termite hill and intercoursed. Jackal was born, the deluded and deceitful son of God, and he was a single being, not the twins which are natural.

God again had intercourse with his earth-wife; but, with the offending member (the termite hill, which is a spacecraft as will become clear) gone, there was no further disorder. Twins were conceived, as is natural and right, the Nummo. They were both male and female and exist as an inseparable Pair. They were born perfect and complete with eight members. Their number is eight, which is the symbol of speech.

They descended, bearing ten bunches of fibres pulled from plants already created in Heaven. The ten bunches corresponded to their ten fingers and they formed two strands of them one for the front, one for the back. This garment was not for modesty. It symbolised the first ordering of the universe. * So perhaps the ordering of the universe is something different then what we would like to think

Thus clothed, the earth (which is some machine or something, as you will see later) acquired its own primitive language. Its syntax was elementary, its verbs few. Its vocabulary was without ornament. This simple speech was a vehicle sufficient for the great work of beginning all things. Jackal also wanted speech now, and he got it from earth-mother who was struggling and fled into the ant hill. This incestuous act was not without consequence. Jackal acquired the gift of speech and has ever afterward been able to reveal to diviners the plans of God. This defilement was more than Amma could bear. He rejected his earth-spouse (mother-earth) and decided to create living beings without her.

The Nommo foresaw that the original rule of twin births was soon to disappear (because Amma did it on his own now) and that errors might result comparable to those of Jackal, whose birth was single and whose solitary state caused him to act as he did. The first man (which the Nommo created to let not let Amma make another being like Jackal) had intercourse with the first woman, who later bore the first two children of a series of eight. These eight were the Dogon ancestors.

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The ancestors went into the termite hill (where the Nummo were so they would be able to defend their mother from further incestuous attacks by Jackal and would, by their moist, luminous, articulate presence, be able to purge the earth-body that Amma had forever rejected and thus purify it for the activities of life, because Amma might create a being like Jackal and the Nummo wanted to prevent that).

This process was the work of the Word. The spoken Word entered into her and wound itself round her womb in a spiral of eight turns. Just as the helical band of copper round the sun gives to it its daily movement, so the spiral of the Word gave to the womb its regenerative movement.

The seventh ancestor, therefore, received the perfect knowledge of a Word the second Word to be heard on earth, clearer than the first and not, like the first, reserved for particular recipients, but destined for all humanity. And the second Word would give people an advantage over God’s wicked son, Jackal, who knew only the primitive first Word. The words that the Spirit breathed through the thread filled the interstices of warp and weft.

They (the ancestors) realised that the anthill’s design surpassed their own dwellings in comfort and safety. This revelation set the people to work constructing “anthill’s” of their own, complete with store-chambers for grain and numerous passageways to baffle predators and enemies. Through the second Word, human beings slowly emerged from their primitive condition. By observing the ant, human beings learned to build villages and received from her the knowledge of weaving.

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Trouble in heaven, because after the Nummo transformed, they imposed a network of rules upon the eight ancestors, the ancestors didn’t follow the rules because they felt that their essence was incompatible with the heavenly regions, so the eight ancestors therefore resolved to return to earth and bring with them anything they could find in Heaven that might prove useful to men.

The first ancestors carried earth with them, and made some building covered with clay and 60 feet in diameter 24 feet in length and 30 feet high. In this there were also symbols relating to Orion, the Pleiades, the moon, Venus and the “long tailed star”. This sacred building was the Granary of the Master of the Pure Earth , and a good description is given in the text on the site itself. The Granary, then, was both a building and a dense constellation of symbols; it was the material embodiment of the third Word that would soon be revealed on earth and granaries on earth would be patterned after it. The Granary was the ideal realisation of the anthill.

There was something stolen and the granary glided toward earth preparing itself from attack from heaven. The thunder increased the velocity of the Granary and now it hurtled at tops speed along the rainbows arc. Seeing that impact was only moments away, the first ancestor assumed a defensive posture (which were inside the granary). when the Granary collided with the earth, his arms and legs were broken at the level of elbows and knees.

Some other things happened and then the rain washed this impure liquid away and thus the earth became ready for planting. The smith, who had been waiting for the rains, emerged from the smithy and taught men the art of sowing. Each family tended its plot and the eight grains, given by the one God, Amma were planted. And so the third Word was fully revealed and order was established.


Well the above was perhaps a lot to read, but it does give a lot of information. We have got Amma which created everything, he created Jackal, a big mistake, and in his second attempt he created the Nummo. He also wanted to make mankind, only the Nummo made mankind because they thought Amma would create again some being like Jackal (Amma wasn’t almighty so to say). The second word was given to mankind to give them an advantage to Jackal which only knew the first word (stolen from mother-earth). The ancestors made their villages just like the comfort and stuff of the ant hill (the spacecraft). The Nummo gave the ancestors rules which they didn’t follow, after which they went to earth,
with the granary
* which could fly,
* which thunder increased it’s velocity,
* which was used for defending the ancestors from attacks from heaven,
* and which was the material embodiment of the third Word
* (and the realisation of the anthill).

(These are obvious reasons for me to say the anthill and the granary were the same, and were a spacecraft).
The granary fell to earth (battle was lost) and the third Word consisted out of agriculture, planting grains and sowing just like the Third word was the material embodiment of the granary.

This leads me to conclude the Words are stages of teachings and knowledge and abilities (spacecraft, agriculture, language and stuff) to get an advanced lifeform. Next to this the order of the universe could be something very different then what we like to think, but has to do with having ten fingers. The ant hill being a spacecraft (just like the granary) also explains the luxury which the ancestors saw, and tried to recreate. Also mother-earth fleeing into the ant hill corresponds to it.

We have to conclude the following
* The God Amma created Nummo and the Nummo created mankind.
* Just like Khepera created the Gods, and those Gods creating mankind.
* The granary was also oriented to Orion, just like the Egyptian pyramids are.
* The granary was a spacecraft just like the ant hill, because:
It could fly,
It made thunder while increased it’s velocity,
It was used for defending the ancestors from attacks from heaven,
It was the material embodiment of the third Word,
It collided with earth after the war,
Comfort could be seen in it, which the ancestors tried to recreate.

(Some persons which are also very familiar with the Dogontribe know that I didn’t even mention the “tenth moon” as argument).
* The Words are the stages of giving knowledge and abilities to mankind.

The above is also a strong confirmation of the Nummo being really aliens, coming from Sirius.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I also would like to show the following
Again the Egyptian book of the Death
Let me behold Horus when he is in charge of the rudder [of the Boat of Ra].
A confirmation the Gods of the Egyptians also had “boats” with rudders.

And some other quotes from the Egyptian book of the Death
Blazing fire
"Blazing fire, unquenchable, with far-reaching tongues of flame, irresistible slaughterer, which one may not pass through fear of its deadly attack.
Light with feathers
She made light with her feathers, she created air with her wings

Thoth and the goddess Maat mark out thy course for thee day by day and every day.
Let me journey above the earth.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* What a resemblance between the “boats” of the Egyptian Gods and the spacecrafts of the Nummo.

I know a museum had a door of a granary (which the Dogontribe itself uses and is sacred) with on it drawings of the Nummo beings (fish-like), I only don’t have the link, but I am sure it will come in the future of this research.

Perhaps the most important of the text above is the confirmation that in the 30’s the Dogontribe really gave information about spacecrafts, the whole creation of mankind, and not just about the Sirius system, as many sites seem to think.

Next to this the following: the similarities with the other tribes and Egypt make it impossible the story has been made up. Or did Egypt and the Dogontribe had accidentally the same similarities, while the Dogontribe came from there. Egypt wasn’t infected by the western world, like the sceptics say the Dogontribe is. And the Dogontribe came from there, and therefore they have also those similarities. What the Dogontribe said in the 30’s about the spacecrafts was told already 2,000 years before by the Egyptians in the book of the Death. The religions are the same and oriented to Sirius because they come from the same place, therefore they also have the similarities.

The story of the creation isn’t thought of by the western persons, because the Egyptians, the Mossi, Nuna and so on confirm it (or are the sceptics going to say those tribes and the Egyptians thousands of years back were also contaminated by the western world?). Therefore also the confirmation about the spacecrafts (boats with rudder) are also certainly part of Dogon religion far before the investigation in the 30’s.

Sorry for the long text, but it is also quite informative I think



posted on Dec, 24 2003 @ 03:58 PM
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Hi there, quickly saying hello to exdog and PhantomRoyce as I've joined the research topic too. Just eagerly awaiting our Team Leader delegating me a task


cya around
flc



posted on Dec, 25 2003 @ 04:16 AM
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Well, so we have got another researcher on our side Funlovincriminal, and he is going to help this topic becoming a big succes


And we are still a bit in the proces of delegating the tasks, but I have send you an U2U already about it.

Well let's continue the research...



posted on Dec, 25 2003 @ 07:00 PM
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The Dogon are not the only culture to have been influenced/created by amphibious beings.

The Chinese, for example, have maintained that their civilization was founded by amphibious beings that had a man's head and a fish tail. The entity, named Fuxi, has been depicted as both male or female. The date traditionally ascribed to him is 3,322BC - again we are back to the same timeline as the ancient civilizations - Sumer - Egypt - Dogon.

Dagon was the god of the Philistines. The idol was represented in the combination of both man and fish. The name 'Dagon' is derived from 'dag' which means 'fish'. Although there was a deep affection from Dagon's worshippers to their deity, the symbol of a fish in human form was really meant to represent fertility and the vivifying powers of nature and reproduction. His name is a lot like 'Dogon'.
These are just 2 examples.

The name comes from a Dogon word meaning "to make one drink". They are also reffered to as ‘Masters of the Water’, ‘the Monitors’, and ‘the Teachers’. These apparently horrible looking creatures, who are portrayed as half-fish, half-man, are said to have been great spiritual leaders as well as educators. The Nommos have obvious and discrete similarities to many other religions of northern Africa and the Mediterranean region. For instance, they arrived to Earth in a vessel which brought with it fire and thunder; similar to the shafts of fire (by day) and clouds (by night) which led Moses in Exodus. After their arrival they released a great mass of water onto Earth and dove into it, similar to the flood myth of Noah. They were said to have divided their bodies so that men could eat and made men to drink, so that ‘the universe had drunk of his [Nommos’] body’; just as Jesus was said to have done at the last supper. Also in comparison to Jesus the Nommos was sacrificed, resurrected and said to return again. Could the authors of the bible simply have been re-interpreting Dogon legends of the Nommos when they told the story of Jesus, who was sent from the heavens for the benefit of mankind and whose symbol was the fish.

Another ‘fish-man’ of more literal terms was the Babylonian Oannes, a member of a species of mermen called the Annedoti, which translates as 'repulsive'. The Annedoti were said by the Babylonians to have been the teachers of civilization, great scholars and astrologers. Oannes, the aquatic deity, would come on land during the day to teach the people, and at night would dive back into the Persian Gulf, where he lived in an underwater palace called the ‘Apsu’. Equivalent to Oannes in the religion of the Philistines at Philistia ,in what is now Israel, was a human-bodied, fish-tailed deity called Dagon. The obvious carry-over of the pronunciation can be almost directly related to the Dogon. Further to the west, Pharos in northern Egypt was said to be the home of 'the Old Man of the Sea', a shape-shifting amphibious deity known as Proteus, son of Oceanus and renowned among the ancient Greeks as an oracle. So, we have amphibious teachers of advanced intelligence from outer-space popping up in various Mediterranean and African cultures as teachers of astronomy and civilization at different points throughout history.


[Edited on 25/12/03 by funlovincriminal]



posted on Dec, 25 2003 @ 07:21 PM
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I know a museum had a door of a granary (which the Dogontribe itself uses and is sacred) with on it drawings of the Nummo beings (fish-like), I only don’t have the link, but I am sure it will come in the future of this research.


I couldn't find a link to the museum for this one, LeenBekkemaa, but there are a lot of pictures of dogon granary doors out there.

www.hamillgallery.com...

I saved the pic and enlarged it. Around the middle appears to be a serpent-like creature, or could it be symbolic of a man's head and a fish-like body?
Hope this is of some assistance.

regards
flc

anyhoo, back to checking out the gods



[Edited on 25/12/03 by funlovincriminal]



posted on Dec, 27 2003 @ 07:50 AM
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Funlovincriminal


Only I have some things to say.


Although there was a deep affection from Dagon's worshippers to their deity, the symbol of a fish in human form was really meant to represent fertility and the vivifying powers of nature and reproduction. His name is a lot like 'Dogon'.

I have to say it isn’t meant to represent fertility, but it represents some kind of metal for a spacesuit (the skin of fish look like it, and are also living, so they would say that). And if you would say that it would represent fertility then I would be happy to know why




I couldn't find a link to the museum for this one, LeenBekkemaa, but there are a lot of pictures of Dogon granary doors out there.

Just look at the first picture shown
Primordial beings, ancestors, Kanaga masks, sun lizards and scenes of life
So you did find it


This is the one I meant by the way

I lost all my sites while reinstalling my computer but it doesn't matter that much I guess, (ps I do have most of them still on a floppy somewhere
)



Perhaps nice to know where the Dogontribe are, the Mossi and stuff.



posted on Dec, 27 2003 @ 05:56 PM
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I have to say it isn’t meant to represent fertility, but it represents some kind of metal for a spacesuit (the skin of fish look like it, and are also living, so they would say that). And if you would say that it would represent fertility then I would be happy to know why



That paragraph was referring to Dagon, the Fish-God of the Philistines. According to their beliefs, he does represent fertility. I know this is not the case with the Nommo, but I was just showing some examples of different fish-like deities from different cultures.



posted on Dec, 27 2003 @ 09:41 PM
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I've been looking at the timelines from the links you had given earlier

home.acceleration.net...
and
faculty.fullerton.edu...

they both refer to the dogon tribe of the kingdom of mali charting different star systems, and Sirius B in 1290

I checked out this date and it seems that there was a document called the ampleforth manuscript which refers to a UFO sighting in 1290.



1290:
Byland, North Yorkshire: From William of Newburghs Chronicle "While the abbot and monks were in the refectorium, a flat round, shining, silvery object (discus) flew over the abbey and caused the utmost terror."



This was later proved to be a hoax by students
ncas.sawco.com...

I'm puzzled as to why they used this date - I assume they could have got info about the dogon tribe back then and then fabricated this story for their own means. I'm going to check it out further - maybe there is a link there with Griaule and Dieterlen. I know it's thin, but who knows?. Just seems too coincidental them choosing 1290. why not 1289 or 1291?

Also, the references to the dogon charting these in 1290 says they are from Mali. It was my understanding that they went to Mali circa 1490. any comments on this?


[Edited on 28/12/03 by funlovincriminal]

[Edited on 28/12/03 by funlovincriminal]





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