Theres a special on Dateline (I think) right now that points out most of the (#ing idiotic imho) ways schools and parents are trying to bolster children's self esteem. I remember dealing with these shallow attempts that rather than make kids feel good about themselves, in my experience, it humiliates them. The program asks a definite question however; Does self-esteem precede accomplishment? Or does self-esteem follow accomplishment? Should we praise kids for basically being alive, or praise them for their achievements? I personally dont like the very liberal, toucy-feely waste of time exadgerated views and practices (group hugs? please.) theyre promoting to our kids constantly in schools doing things like this. Praise kids for their actions when right. Theyre trying to make you feel only a certain way about everything, all the time. Pavlovian programming at heart. I ask you the question however.
Praise to bring achievement? Or praise to show support for achievement. If its not clear what my choice is, im going to make it clear I support the latter; praise the kids for doing something.

[Edited on 13-12-2003 by forsakenwayfarer]

Last year when I was a freshman in highschool we had a class we were forced to take called 'Freshman Seminar'. May I just say it was the BIGGEST WASTE OF TIME that I've ever experienced. It was the typical class where they try to make you feel good about your self and take a lead in your life but, strangly enough, whatever lead you took they critisized you for. I resisted by making sick jokes to every question they asked me. (ex: 'What's your dream job?' 'Opening a skin graph store.') It's just amazing how teachers can try to help your self esteem but make you feel so worthless. I suppose that helps develope thick hides...

my biggest problem is that theyre trying to make everyone out to be a winner, and make it seem like no one ever really fails, there are no losers. this is WRONG. this is DANGEROUS. there is ALWAYS a first place, and ALWAYS a second. SOMEONE has to fail , its the way things work, so to speak.

Originally posted by forsakenwayfarer
there is ALWAYS a first place, and ALWAYS a second. SOMEONE has to fail , its the way things work, so to speak.

Although I don't think this is neccesarily true (this sort of belief is the result of an economic system which is reliant upon competition and individual success at the cost of the group's welfare) I do agree that schools put far too much emphasis on making everyone happy and proud instead of saying "Hey - you CAN fail. # happens". Kids have a pretty good BS meter - they know that a "participation" award is not the same as first place, and speaking from past experience, they can get pretty insulted when you pretend they don't. Of course, some kids believe all the "you're super-special!" hype and grow up thinking that the world owes them fame and fortune. Jerks.

Originally posted by sharky

Originally posted by forsakenwayfarer
there is ALWAYS a first place, and ALWAYS a second. SOMEONE has to fail , its the way things work, so to speak.

Although I don't think this is neccesarily true (this sort of belief is the result of an economic system which is reliant upon competition and individual success at the cost of the group's welfare) I do agree that schools put far too much emphasis on making everyone happy and proud instead of saying "Hey - you CAN fail. # happens". Kids have a pretty good BS meter - they know that a "participation" award is not the same as first place, and speaking from past experience, they can get pretty insulted when you pretend they don't. Of course, some kids believe all the "you're super-special!" hype and grow up thinking that the world owes them fame and fortune. Jerks.

Hey, screwed if you do, screwed if you don't. That's the way kids are being raised. Can you blame them for beign so #ed up?

DE

Interesting topic, my main thought when I read this was "whats YOUR problem?" Why do you find self esteem education so frightening? Are you afriad of failure, and too afraid to try? Have you given up yourself and therefore don't want others to succeed?

How on earth can you be against trying to give kids the self esteem to do what they dream? Would you rather a generation grow up in bleak despondency punting for low paid, low skilled jobs?

Is your cynicism (to basically all the preseeding posters in this thread) speaking more about yourself than the actions of helping kids?

So you think that kids from deprived backgrounds, dysfunctional families, screwed societies, flawed role models, corrupt peers, are HURT by having "self esteem classes?"

Boy they must be weak individuals if they survive life on the streets but are traumatised by being told that they can do better than they see at present.

If you teach 10 kids that they can be better than they think, and 9 turn away, laugh and ignore it, and only one thinks "Yeah I can" and really goes for it, then the program is a success.

If you can help drag one kid from a life time of mediocrity and low expectations, being a victim of negative peer pressure (Minority kids expecially find their peers to be the worst people and stop them from achieving academically) and actually aspire and achieve a dream they have, then you have changed one life, and that person will change other lives.

This is really the "Its hard to fly like an eagle when you walk with the turkeys" situation. Too many turkey's gobbling away stop the eagles from achieving.

Originally posted by Netchicken
Interesting topic, my main thought when I read this was "whats YOUR problem?" Why do you find self esteem education so frightening? Are you afriad of failure, and too afraid to try? Have you given up yourself and therefore don't want others to succeed?

How on earth can you be against trying to give kids the self esteem to do what they dream? Would you rather a generation grow up in bleak despondency punting for low paid, low skilled jobs?

Is your cynicism (to basically all the preseeding posters in this thread) speaking more about yourself than the actions of helping kids?

So you think that kids from deprived backgrounds, dysfunctional families, screwed societies, flawed role models, corrupt peers, are HURT by having "self esteem classes?"

Boy they must be weak individuals if they survive life on the streets but are traumatised by being told that they can do better than they see at present.

If you teach 10 kids that they can be better than they think, and 9 turn away, laugh and ignore it, and only one thinks "Yeah I can" and really goes for it, then the program is a success.

If you can help drag one kid from a life time of mediocrity and low expectations, being a victim of negative peer pressure (Minority kids expecially find their peers to be the worst people and stop them from achieving academically) and actually aspire and achieve a dream they have, then you have changed one life, and that person will change other lives.

This is really the "Its hard to fly like an eagle when you walk with the turkeys" situation. Too many turkey's gobbling away stop the eagles from achieving.

I'm sorry, but in reality, there ARE a lot mroe turkeys here on the ground. Not everyone's going to be a rockstar. I will admit that these self esteem classe might help a few, but they need to be realistic. Bell curve the school- two percent doctors, another two dead, 13.5% doing low-paying jobs they hate, 13.5% doing better than average in life, and 68% just stuck as cubicle grunts or in equally mediocre straights. We're not cynical, we're realistic.

DE

deus ex hit the nail on the head pretty much there. i get the feeling anything i add after this would just be anti-climatic.

We're not cynical, we're realistic.

You THINK you are realistic, but you are not.

Sure there are going to be drug addict and cubical sitters, sure only the top end of the entrepreneiral bell curve are really going to be successful.

You are looking at a macro level, just because 50% of people will have a mediocre job doesn't mean that YOU have to be one of those, not unless you just turn over and give up.

I was just now (in my hammock, in the sun) reading about a guy whos'e self esteem was so low he only dated plain girls. Unfortunatly the plain girls he dated also figured "If this guy wants to go out with me then there is something wrong with him". It was a no win situaton that made everyone involved unhappy. Both of them would be in agreement with your posts here. "Life's a b1tch try and make the best of it".

If you just give up and accept it then something will die inside of you, and into that death will come cynicism, "I couldn't make it and I won't allow anyone else the freedom to try because they will show me up for the failure that I feel I am".

Cynicism is a defence mechanism to protect your ego from admitting that you failed. That you dreams died, that you are never going to be the person you wanted to be, or do the things you wanted to do.

I feel sad for you both....


[Edited on 13-12-2003 by Netchicken]

Why? Because we realize that yes, most of our dreams have died, and yes, we've failed? We're goign to be cubicle sitters and lead mediocre lives? I'd rather admit my failings than be disappointed time and again by life.

DE

Successful busnessmen fail at least 7 times in business before making it. So what, each failure is a learning curve IF you feel good about yourself. There are a million stories about guys with a dream who failed repeatedly and finally achieved what they wanted, in all walks of life.

Failure doesn't mean a thing.

Its better to die on your feet than live on your knees.
...

In the end who'se the real loser in life, someone who tries and fails, or someone who refuses to try in case he fails??


[Edited on 13-12-2003 by Netchicken]

Successful bussinessmen are the 2%. Not everyone can cut it. Now, there's a 98% percent chance that we're not good enough. I think i know myself fairly well- and I know I don't have what it takes to do things like build a bussiness empire.

There may be a million stories of success after failure, but a hundred million more of just flat out failure.

Better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven. I have the common sense to stop throwing myself at a brick wall, because I'm going to give out sooner than it is.

I've got a better question- Who's the bigger loser in life: A guy who accepts what he can do and lives with it, or a guy who keeps continuing to fail because he can't accept his own limitations?

DE

Some people are comfortable doing things they know they're good at, without risking everything on a big gamble, while other people prefer taking big risks and refusing to accept the status quo. Neither path is perfect, and neither path is good for everyone. People have to decide for themselves whether any given risk is worth the possible outcome - it's one of those things you can't really make sweeping generalizations about.

These are nice little platitudes, but the initial topic was not about being successful in business, that was just my example. What about being sucessful in sport, in hobbies, in some other interest, these are just as relevent.

The topic was about the usefullness of self esteem education, and my take was that it is very important.

The other posters, (if I may take the liberty of summerising their postion,) was "its not worth it we are just cogs in the machine anyway, why get their hopes up".

They said they were realistic, I said they were cynical.

I guess that there is nothing else to say on my part except that I hope their kids get a good education, otherwise they may turn out like their parents.....

i never said it was wasted because they were cogs in the system. dont take the liberty of summing up something if you cant do it right.
my position is that self esteem 'education' is useless and quite possibly dangerous to us in the fact that they try to force children into believe that if they feel anything other than what theyre told to feel when theyre told to feel it, that its 'wrong' and that there is something 'wrong' with them. i know for a fact if/when i have children, i DO NOT want them being subject to this kind of programming. look up mind control and conditioning tactics, and then take a long hard look at the way they 'educate' kids about their 'self esteem'. its stupid, humiliating, and downright if nothing else a waste of time. theyre making kids 'feel good' when they could be TEACHING for a change. what a load of bs.

teaching kids that everything in life is going to be just a-ok and that they never really lose is wrong. and its giving young children a false view of the way the world works. if they buy into it, theyre going to be quite shattered soon after when they realise everyone isnt a winner, and life hurts.


[Edited on 14-12-2003 by forsakenwayfarer]

truth of the matter being however, it is realistic to think that we ARE just cogs in the system, but how this pertains to the completely different level of whether or not self esteem 'education' is right or wrong doesnt make sense to me.

Originally posted by forsakenwayfarer
truth of the matter being however, it is realistic to think that we ARE just cogs in the system, but how this pertains to the completely different level of whether or not self esteem 'education' is right or wrong doesnt make sense to me.

Ever seen Fight Club? There's a monologue, it goes something like this:

I see in Fight Club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see it squandered. Goddammit, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables, and slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes; working jobs we hate so we can buy # we don't need. (pause) We're the middle children of history, man; no purpose or place. We have no Great War, no Great Depression. Our Great War is a spiritual war. Our Great Depression is our lives. (pause) We've all been raised by television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires and movie gods and rock stars -- but we won't (smirks) and we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.

Favorite movie of mine, for good reason.

DE

Originally posted by DeusEx


I've got a better question- Who's the bigger loser in life: A guy who accepts what he can do and lives with it, or a guy who keeps continuing to fail because he can't accept his own limitations?

DE

You pose that question as if there are just thoses to types of people and yes both are preety big losers but succesful people do fail but instead of seeing it as a setback in thier lives they instead see and act upon it as a learning curve as has been said and build upon it.

What people are missing in all of this mumbo jumbo about esteem is this:

are they not conditioning the young people to just ACCEPT their lot in life?

you can be sure that down at the private academic instution where MR and MRS Moneybags send their kids there ain't no hugging and kissing going on. It is all serious business as they groom the kids to take over and run the world.

Now they will have less competition in future cause the public system will encourage all the kids to do squat.