As a member of the so called 'twisted youth', I feel I should speak up some. Firstly, I've been exposed to violent videogames through my life. Nothing. It affects nothign except those individuals already too abstracted from reality to see what they're doing. If you want to blame someone for us freaks, it's YOU. Yes, the parents. You've all replaced common parenting skills with the cubic babysitter. Yeah, my parents provided for me when I was young. Food, shelter, clothes- but there's more to raising a child than giving them a healthy meal. Do you REALLY know your children? I very much doubt it. most parents don't care nowadays, period. Mine were control freaks. No reason. They just laid down the law, and that was it. Instead of learning morals for myself, I just learned to fear punishment and that it's prettymuch alright if you don't get caught. Most other kids I knew had parents who simply didn't care. They could go out, do whatever they want as long as there wasn't any overt signs of chaos. They wouldn't mind if your shirt smelled of smoke, but they'd ground you if they found your booze. Admit it- do you really know if your teen is a druggie? I was lucky enough to be smart enough not to try anything- I'm from a rich town, and if you can think of an illicit substance, odds are you can have it in twenty minutes. We had honest to god cokeheads in my Catholic school. Kids, in grade eleven and twelve, dazed out of their minds of blow. It's sick.

Want to know how to fix this?

Parents, get your # together. Stop looking out for your career first. That's how you breed crazed kids like me. We're angry, we're depressed, we're violent. Neglect made us this way, and continued neglect will only make it worse.

DE

I wish to speak on the behalf of the parents, although I can certainly understand why todays youth feel neglected. Todays world is different and nothing, like it was in the 40's and 50's. Where mom stayed home and dad went out and worked. It's no more a " Fathers knows Best" world. With the sky rocketing prices of homes, food, fuel, education ect....both parents most likely will have to work. God forbid if there's a divorce where it puts the pressure on one parent. Here's a scenario where both parents are working their butts off just to make ends meet. Than they get a call from the school saying Johnny is depressed and doesn't do his assignments. Mom takes Johnny to a doctor who writes out a prescription for Paxil. The Paxil seems to be working for awhile anyways. Johnny is doing better and keeping up with his homework. Mom and Dad are happy campers everything is going so well. Than a few weeks later Johnny seems to be going into another slump. Back to the doctors they must go. And what does the doctor do? But UP the Paxil to 40 mg per day.

The class of drugs know as SSRIs ( US brandnames: Prozac, Paxil, Luvox, Zoloft and Celexa) have been blamed for several high profile cases of violence, including the Columbine shootings and the murder/suicide of the comedian Phil Hartmann committed by his wife Brynn. Several doctors have also written books purporting to show the SSRI to violence connection including Prozac Backlash by Dr. Joseph Glenmullen and Talking Back to Prozac by Dr. Peter Breggin.

Just when the parents think everything is coming up roses. Johnny kills a school mate.

I believe drugs are used way too much in todays society. Used to control the childs behavior. Most parents have to work to make ends meet. Most parents take precautions when choosing a baby sitter. What are they suppose to do? It is harder in todays world. Than they have the schools telling them "You have to do something about your child". Don't get me wrong I'm not saying all parents are good. Something probably did happen to the boy, in this article. Evidently something was over-looked. What about Andrea Yates a stay at home mom. That certainly wasn't a benefit for her children. Than look at the big drug companies pushing all these drugs. I wish I had the answers.

Originally posted by RANT
Agreed on personal experience. Mike Moore would say it's access to hand guns. I would add prevalent images of violence, vengence and machismo.

Elvis and Sid Vicious would be seen as p*ssies now.

Plus let's face it...you don't bring Crack to the "love in".

there were no guns in this killing, it was a baseball bat vs a toddler.
dont blame the baseball bat

Originally posted by DeusEx
As a member of the so called 'twisted youth', I feel I should speak up some. Firstly, I've been exposed to violent videogames through my life. Nothing. It affects nothign except those individuals already too abstracted from reality to see what they're doing. If you want to blame someone for us freaks, it's YOU. Yes, the parents. You've all replaced common parenting skills with the cubic babysitter. Yeah, my parents provided for me when I was young. Food, shelter, clothes- but there's more to raising a child than giving them a healthy meal. Do you REALLY know your children? I very much doubt it. most parents don't care nowadays, period. Mine were control freaks. No reason. They just laid down the law, and that was it. Instead of learning morals for myself, I just learned to fear punishment and that it's prettymuch alright if you don't get caught. Most other kids I knew had parents who simply didn't care. They could go out, do whatever they want as long as there wasn't any overt signs of chaos. They wouldn't mind if your shirt smelled of smoke, but they'd ground you if they found your booze. Admit it- do you really know if your teen is a druggie? I was lucky enough to be smart enough not to try anything- I'm from a rich town, and if you can think of an illicit substance, odds are you can have it in twenty minutes. We had honest to god cokeheads in my Catholic school. Kids, in grade eleven and twelve, dazed out of their minds of blow. It's sick.

Want to know how to fix this?

Parents, get your # together. Stop looking out for your career first. That's how you breed crazed kids like me. We're angry, we're depressed, we're violent. Neglect made us this way, and continued neglect will only make it worse.

DE

I, too, am one of those "twisted" youths, yet I was so compelled when I read about this to post about it. I was raised right. I had a parent there for me all through my days, and still do to this day, despite the fact that I'm 24. I've played the violent video games, but that's all they are, games. They mean nothing in the real world.

I think the reason I posted this is because I intend to be a father one day. I want to be sure not to raise children who are inclined to this, and wanted to know where I needed to watch, to maintain. I think I'm on the right path, now (You could have at least given me credit for the cubic babysitter).

Another reason, though, is because I don't want to think that there are any lost youths, I want hope that they don't have to go down that path, despite the way they were raised. I wanted info on how to be able to help them, which is still lacking.

Originally posted by junglejake


I, too, am one of those "twisted" youths, yet I was so compelled when I read about this to post about it. I was raised right. I had a parent there for me all through my days, and still do to this day, despite the fact that I'm 24. I've played the violent video games, but that's all they are, games. They mean nothing in the real world.

I think the reason I posted this is because I intend to be a father one day. I want to be sure not to raise children who are inclined to this, and wanted to know where I needed to watch, to maintain. I think I'm on the right path, now (You could have at least given me credit for the cubic babysitter).

Another reason, though, is because I don't want to think that there are any lost youths, I want hope that they don't have to go down that path, despite the way they were raised. I wanted info on how to be able to help them, which is still lacking.

There are more lost youth than you're willing to see, then. A lot more. There are hundreds of thousands of us, ranging from goths with self mutilation problems to borderline psychotics hiding in their parent's basements to escape the reality of their existence. Kids who at seventeen come home to find five guys leaving his house with a camcorder, laughing, who go into their house sick with worry to find their mothers curled up crying in the basement wearing only a robe claiming they had to 'help dad pay off his coke debts'.

I've met these people, each one of these examples. I've cut, I've hid from reality. The third example was something I heard not two nights ago on a COD server. It made me literally sick to my stomach that people - MY people- must undergo things like this. we're a new generation, the one that was forsaken by the world. We're forced into these situations, without any help, no one to turn to, and yet we somehow come out of it. And yet you DARE question us as to why we're so damn 'twisted'? You want to help us, give us parents who care. Programs. Places to turn to. Ways to eliminate problems from our lives. ways to get rid of the kid who beats us #less without using a shotung or knife. Get us diagnosis for our mental illnesses and syndromes. Or, better yet, eliminate their sources to begin with.

DE

[Edited on 13-12-2003 by DeusEx]

Most lost youth are due to themselves.

Every kids is so quick to blame their parents. True, there are a ton of parents that I would love to strangle for being so stupid and destructive towards their kids. But mostly I think that most kids don't see what their parents have done.

You try doing a job that is 24 hours a day for 18 years with no training with no screw ups.

It's a job that is hard and demanding, in addition to the already difficult task of negotiating life.

Parents might be to blame for somethings, but there are a great deal of kids who just can't take responcibility for anything they do, it's all a blame game, living outside of reality.

That is why most people don't succeed.

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
Most lost youth are due to themselves.

Every kids is so quick to blame their parents. True, there are a ton of parents that I would love to strangle for being so stupid and destructive towards their kids. But mostly I think that most kids don't see what their parents have done.

You try doing a job that is 24 hours a day for 18 years with no training with no screw ups.

It's a job that is hard and demanding, in addition to the already difficult task of negotiating life.

Parents might be to blame for somethings, but there are a great deal of kids who just can't take responcibility for anything they do, it's all a blame game, living outside of reality.

That is why most people don't succeed.

While it is true that we all reach an age of accountability, the child that committed this crime was TEN YEARS OLD!! 10 year olds don't generally perform such acts of violence unless they are exposed to it themselves. I can only imagine the pain this young boy must have experienced, in his short life, to make him think that smashing a toddler to death with a bat was the way to deal with an annoying situation.

I would be willing to wager that had this child been shown love and kindness throughout his life, this horrible crime never would have happened. Kids don't need the newest clothes, toys, etc. They do need, and deserve, unfailing love and support from their parents. It was not their choice to be born, it was their parents. How can we expect kids to grow up with any idea about how to live or love if their primary teachers can't show them?

Originally posted by ktprktpr
I am of the opinon that the frequency of killing, proportional the to the growing population, has not incrased. I believe that Faux news and the like are merely highlighting such stories more than they used to.

You may be right, but the methods have definitely become more brutal, in the US anyway. That, you can't deny. School shootings would never have gone unpublished by the media. Things of this shocking nature just did not happen years ago.

Originally posted by RANT

Originally posted by Satyr
I'm not exactly sure why some kids are different today. I was a perfect candidate for a psychopathic rampage when I was in school. I was pushed beyond my limits constantly, and had many thoughts of killing some of the perpetrators. But, I never did. What's different now? Why do kids in the same situations just snap? I actually wish I would've snapped a few times. It may have made the rest of my school days easier. (assuming I didn't kill anyone)

Agreed on personal experience. Mike Moore would say it's access to hand guns. I would add prevalent images of violence, vengence and machismo.

Elvis and Sid Vicious would be seen as p*ssies now.

Plus let's face it...you don't bring Crack to the "love in".

I always knew where my dad kept a loaded gun. I'd even held it in my hands before, while they weren't home. But I never thought of shooting anyone. Mike Moore is full of #.



"Don't accept that what's happening is just a case of others' suffering
Or you'll find that you're joining in the turning away" - Floyd


[Edited on 12-13-2003 by Satyr]

I was speaking outside this case.

But honestly, I doubt that this kid would have stayed out of jail.

I mean, let's be honest, for a ten year old to bludgeon another to death, he would have had to have been severly abused, or just plain crazy (which there are many of those out there just below the radar).

If the kids life was even half way good, then the kid is nuts, much like the Columbine kids.

Those kids were crazy, no one with much brains at all, no matter what age can be conned into something that nuts.

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
I was speaking outside this case.

But honestly, I doubt that this kid would have stayed out of jail.

I mean, let's be honest, for a ten year old to bludgeon another to death, he would have had to have been severly abused, or just plain crazy (which there are many of those out there just below the radar).

If the kids life was even half way good, then the kid is nuts, much like the Columbine kids.

Those kids were crazy, no one with much brains at all, no matter what age can be conned into something that nuts.

Halfway good isn't good. It can be godawful. That's why people should be trying to help these kids, not just write them off.

DE

I agree with you 100%, but being a father of two boys myself, it really bothers me that so many parents are abusive to their kids.

Children are unrelenting, and annoying, and always around needing and wanting in a totally selfish way. They have no comprehention that other people can feel the way they do (pain, sadness, fatigue, etc.).

BUT, they are great at the same time.

There are some parents that suck, and I hate them, but there are also worthless kids that blame everything on other people and their failure is their own fault.

Depends on the case. But either way, parents and kids are the root of a lot of social problems.

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
The problem can NOT be corrected, just like we can't stop people from being gay.

It is a silly waste of energy.

You don't overhaul a car cause it's headlights out. You have to affect the core. Unfortunately there are billions of cores to this problem. It comes down to family. The lineage is this :
Family - Community - City - State - Country.

Will we ever get there? NO, but the reason to keep going to try to make it a little better for those after you (your kids if you have then...I have 2 boys).

Good things can spread like the bad. What would happen if an epidemic of courtesy hit the country and grew like the child obesity problem. This place would be better in 10 years. It all starts with parents and local leaders.

I concur..totally...great summary. Family values break down and snowballs into Community break down...City breaks down....State...then Country. The U.S. is on a downslide...big time. I spend more time with my family than most...and my family loves me for that. Where's the love?

As someone who does not have kids, I realize that some of you may not like my commenting on this topic.

That having been said, I'm 30 years old and my generation had its share of insanity, but nothing like we've seen in the decade+ since I graduated from high school.

It's not an exposure to weapons or military equipment. I went to school with some guys who are better armed than some small countries. None of them went crazy and killed off a school full of kids. I spent my summers at camp, stalking former military personnel in the staff, including Marines and Rangers. I don't recall using my nunchaku, bo staff, or knives to kill any of them though.

It's not an exposure to violent content in media or entertainment. I grew up reading about Wolverine of the X-Men. Still my favorite character to this day, but I don't go around gutting people like fish when they piss me off. I studied news footage and the history of the war in Viet Nam, but I never felt any urges to re-enact any of the atrocities committed there.

It's not about being up your kid's ass 24 hours a day, thinking you'll keep them out of trouble. My parents were divorced when I was 16, with two sisters of ages 12 and 7. The two of them have turned out okay, as neither of them, exposed to the same things I was, have turned into mass murderers, despite being raised primarily with one parent, who had to work to make ends meet.

The key is just balance and respect.

Make sure kids understand that there are consequences for their actions. Teach them right and wrong from an early age. Talk to them about what they're interested in. Find out what attracts them to whatever has their attention, and then make sure you both understand it before they get to the violent rage that makes them shoot up their hometown or take a bat to their siblings. Make sure the kids have a defined sense of reality vs. fantasy. For example, in comics, cartoons, or pro-wrestling, the behavior exhibited is often well beyond the means of reality.

Parents don't have to give up their jobs or their lives, but they have to lead by example. Be less selfish and show that they're willing to give some of their time to their kids. They need to talk about things and pay attention when the kids have something to say. Listen and communicate -- it's a two-way street.

Make sure that both kids and parents listen as well as talk. Show respect both ways, but make sure kids understand the consequences of not showing that respect to parents and everyone else around them.

Okay, all the parents and teens can fire away with their disagreements now.

[Edited on 12/14/2003 by TheDemonHunter]

Thanks for agreeing with me...but I do not think that society is on a downhill slide.

It is just changing although the root of humanity remains the same.

The reason Shakespear is so popular even today (a probably will be for a really long time), is that it addresses the nature of man. Those things just don't change.

If they did, then Confusious and other early philosphers would have no base in the modern world, but they still seem to.


The problem we face now, is that there has been a true attack on the nature of men (meaning women too, but to a different degree that I won't go into now).
We as men have a nature that is not limited to generation, and is not influenced by the times either.

We are hunters, protectors, and sometimes savage. But the passification of men through social agenda is killing us.

Most people do not hunt any more. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a kid who has hunted with his dad for his whole life pulling a Columbine.

There is also no refuge for men and boys to be with each other without women. It has become sexist to exclude women from ANYTHING so there can be little in the way off healthy male bonding.

Boyscouts (has to include women and girls)
All male schools (again, same thing)
the list goes on and on...

There is such thing as healthy male aggression, that of course has become a negative thing in the view of this generation of parents.

Trying to keep a man from being aggressive at all will lead to either a man becoming a woman,
OR (and most likely), that boy lashing out.

We are at heart animals and have insticts to fight over things we see as fit. The key is to teach WHAT is good to fight over and what is not.

Point - If someone on the playground pushes my son (3 years old) Connor on the playground, you know what I do? NOTHING. If he comes to me, I tell him to try talking to the boy. If violence happens again, I let him take care of the kid as he sees fit.

MOST parents would say "we don't hit".

That is BIG BS. Sometimes we need to. We are boys and men.

Yeah, the decline proper punishment is another big influence. We aren't properly socialized anymore, or molded. We spent three weeks on this in my psych class. Look at the way parents raise their children from a behaviorial perspective, and you'd be surprised there aren't more mass murderers. There is barely any negative reinforcement anymore, which results in children being selfish. All they get is positive reinforcement. Like I said, we teach them that everyone grows up to be a winner, and now that they know that they aren't, they're not happy.

DE

Thanks Deus, you filled in the blanks nicely.

We need to increase competition and discuss being the loser.

What no one tells these kids is that life is a compitition, and if it's you against me? Shoot, I'll do everything in my power to win.

Job, school, sports, women, control, etc.

All a compitition...

Our consumer oriented society has a dramatic number of households with both parents working. It also has a dramatic number of single mothers, again due to that biological father wanting his discretionary income under his discretion.
Add to that the deregulation & oversight over corporate interests who have sharply cut the real dollar net increases of worker compensation, and increased the gap of of their top executives to the common worker to somewhere around 30 times greater.
Thus, you have the nadir of a consumer driven society causing the disruption of the family structure with the comp needed to rectify it being a diminishing return. Mommy's working, Grandma can't afford to retire to watch junior, Daddy who? and daycare to go to night school cuts any quality time......who loves ya baby? Really, who loves you?

Originally posted by junglejake
I think the reason I posted this is because I intend to be a father one day. I want to be sure not to raise children who are inclined to this, and wanted to know where I needed to watch, to maintain.

Don't leave the parenting to the mother of your children. Parenting is a two-person responsibility, particularly when both parents work.

The second thing is to screen and carefully frame the kids' experiences. You can yell and rant and take away programs and books and you know (from your own experience) that it doesn't work.

But what if the parent sat down and played "Grand Theft Auto" with you and then said "you know, I don't really like this game. It treats people as objects to be killed... and I can easily see someone treating your mom or your friends that way. It treats women as people to be beaten up and killed for fun. I don't like that."

...and then explaining ot them that going after the bad guys with guns is a dumb idea, often unsuccessful (look at how many revengeful people end up in the paper every day, caught when they "fixed" someone who did them wrong.) And discussing news stories and tragedies (like the one you posted) and how the parents must feel and how you feel about it.

Teach the kid the way of peaceful solutions.

You can see the anger and violence here in the number of posts by people who think that violence/guns/killing/attacking is a good idea. You can see it in their user icons and their names, too.

It's like dogs. Pit bulls can be excellent dogs, but if you give them a nasty-killer name and play violent games with them, then you probably shouldn't be surprised when they run loose and rip up the neighbor's dogs (and you get arrested for it and the dogs get killed for it.)