Ask an atheist

Originally posted by melatonin

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

Originally posted by melatonin
So people who don't 'know' god are atheists.

Can you quote where it is i said this?

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
In other words from birth until one KNOWS (more than just believes blindly) that God exists, the only perspective they have ever had is an atheistic perspective, which is the only information permitted to pass to the conscious mind from the subconscious, since it is the only information which is compliant with what the conscious mind is capable of accepting.

"So people who don't 'know' god are atheists." and " ... until one KNOWS ... that God exists" are not the same thing.

If it were are you suggesting that someone can know God, before they know that God exists? Possible for God, but not for selfishness incarnate (humans).

If they have only had an atheists perspective, then I guess they were never a theist.

Nope, not even if they have convinced themselves that they are believers. If a believer does not know God, then how can they know God exists? How many "believers" have provided you with proof of God's existance?

If they have only had an atheists perspective, then I guess they were never a theist.

sarcasm aside, i guess you are saying believers are not delusional?


[edit on 3-1-2007 by Esoteric Teacher]

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
How many "believers" have provided you with proof of God's existance?

The same number as "knowers"... Zero.

I have more to say about your posts. It's late and I'm tired. Later...

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
How many "believers" have provided you with proof of God's existance?

The same number as "knowers"... Zero.

If free will is God's will, then those who are "knowers" are not attempting to provide proof of God's existance. If so, then either God is a liar, or "knowers" are.

I have more to say about your posts. It's late and I'm tired. Later...

I enjoy the dialogue, and your point of view. I'm learning, and learning makes me happy

Pleasant Dreams Benevolent Heretic.

I haven't responded to you, Esoteric, yet because, while I think I understand what you're saying, there's enough ambiguity to leave enough doubt in my mind.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

Originally posted by melatonin
So people who don't 'know' god are atheists.

Can you quote where it is i said this?

What i am saying, as is science, is that experiences are consciously percieved differently, in accordance with what truths a person's opinion accepts as true.

I am saying that a person who "believes" there is no god, can not consciously experience causes and effects of god. Why? Because they have already decided there is no god, hence no causes and effects of god can be experienced consciously, without adverse effects to a person's conscious psychi.

I am saying that a person who "believes" in god, but is still searching for answers, evidently has not found the answers with a supposed all knowing god that they believe in, because they have not chosen to do more than believe in god.

I am saying that a person who KNOWS GOD EXISTS has had experiences that the above 2 examples (1= no god, 2= believes), can not have, as such information that is detremental to the conscious mind can not be permitted to be sent, lest they go crazy.

May i suggest changing your instinct of being SELF BEFORE YOU SERVE, aka SELF PRE-SERVE at the cellular level in order to experience what it is i am trying to convey.

So by thinking outside of ourselves, we'll understand what you're saying? That's exactly what I did that made me an atheist. Like I said before, I was at one time a devout Catholic.

But, if you feel something other than truth serves you best, then deny yourself from experiencing it.

because fear does nothing but fear the truth, and serving something other than truth is what our instinct demands. Since we only accumilate new information if it connects to old information which is compatible, then all information collected thus far from someone who is self pre-serve is all compliant with that command, but the truth is not.

The truth is not compliant with the instinct of Selfishness Before Service

If you dissagree, then you must have the truth. If you have the truth, then why ask questions?

Do i have the truth?

Depends upon what truth you are looking for. But, can you look for truth that is not compliant with your dna?

I already discussed this in another post in this very thread. We seemed to be wired from birth to be highly receptive of religious ideas. Religion may well be encoded in our DNA, and so it would seem that atheism is what is truly outside of our nature. If there is a true religion, then it's a part of our nature, and we won't have problems assimilating into it.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Although "believers" can already relate to the view and perspective of atheists, atheists cannot always relate to the view and perspective of "believers", as they have no basis for reference throughout all their experiences, since they have had no experiences observing anything as a "believer", however "believers" do have experience of observing as an atheist.

What about all the atheists who lapsed from belief? Don't they have experience of life under a belief system?

'Teacher'. Huh.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
If it were are you suggesting that someone can know God, before they know that God exists? Possible for God, but not for selfishness incarnate (humans).

The problem as I tried to point out is that these people who say they 'know' god, seem to know different 'gods'.

You may claim Jesus was god on earth. Moqtada Al-Sadr will claim that Jesus was not divine but just another prophet, Mohammed was also his prophet. Then we have even more people with different versions of god, for example, Joseph Smith and the mormon living prophets, the vikings and Thor etc etc.

If you all 100% 'know' god, either most of you are wrong, or there are many gods. Or, just maybe, god is a phantom of the mind accounting for all these different POVs.

If they have only had an atheists perspective, then I guess they were never a theist.

Nope, not even if they have convinced themselves that they are believers. If a believer does not know God, then how can they know God exists? How many "believers" have provided you with proof of God's existance?

As B.heretic notes, none have provided real proof, believers or knowers. That's why you have faith.

If they have only had an atheists perspective, then I guess they were never a theist.

sarcasm aside, i guess you are saying believers are not delusional?
[edit on 3-1-2007 by Esoteric Teacher]

Delusional is such a loaded word.

I think people who say 100% that no god exists have a false belief, the same with those who say 100% that god exists.

[edit on 4-1-2007 by melatonin]

Originally posted by supercheetah
I haven't responded to you, Esoteric, yet because, while I think I understand what you're saying, there's enough ambiguity to leave enough doubt in my mind.

I know. You are 100% CORRECT !!!! The reason my words come across as ambiguous is because sometimes the words do not exist to sufficiently describe my personal experiences. Or, the approaches i know are not sufficient for you to understand what it is i'm trying to say. In which case the fault for the ambiguity is mine, to a degree.

Sometimes what is being discussed is in the realm of abstract thought which is where a great deal of our conscousness lies. It is difficult to describe in words sometimes what is abstract, since it is difficult to label or name the abstract. Hence the ambiguity in the words and sentences. Sorry for it, but hopefully you can identify with what it is i'm saying.

So by thinking outside of ourselves, we'll understand what you're saying?

It helps to get rid of the ambiguity. By making yourself the will of others, without ANY percievable benefit for one's self, instead of trying to make everyone else the extension of your will, one can see their environment in a different perspective. I'm not saying athiests do not do this. One of my best friends, and his wife, are athiests. And they are two of the nicest people anyone could hope to meet. They accept others for who they are, and rarely judge anyone. They are good people. And we have no problems talking about anything, even our differences in beliefs. It is never an arguement or a debate, but just sharing eachothers truths with one another, to learn and grow.

That's exactly what I did that made me an atheist. Like I said before, I was at one time a devout Catholic.

I to was raised Catholic. There doctrine can be taxing on a persons will to remain true to themselves. Although there is much truth in their teachings, their practices can be viewed as both stairways towards the end result, and a roadblock to the end result. I think i know how you feel concerning the RCC.

Religion may well be encoded in our DNA, and so it would seem that atheism is what is truly outside of our nature.

Good point. If religion is encoded in our DNA, then perhaps God is, too. Religion is the effect, God is the cause. Although God worships no higher God (*** Which makes God an athiest), God does put the needs and wants of the many over the wants of God. So, if God is within our DNA, perhaps that portion of the DNA that takes us to God is Behind or Beyond the instinct of self pre-serve.

Good Thoughts supercheetah

Recent "Atheist" threads have given me an idea for a thread i may start tomorrow, unless someone wants to start it today.

My idea for a thread?

Altheist vs. Believer Debate! Role Reversal!

Have Atheists argue that God exists, and have Believers argue the stance of Atheists. I think it would be an interesting thread, and both sides of the fence may learn a little more tolerance for the other side of the fence.

couldn't hurt, could it?

thanks,
john

Originally posted by Astyanax

What about all the atheists who lapsed from belief? Don't they have experience of life under a belief system?

'Teacher'. Huh.

I don't think everyone who believes can answer these questions concerning their belief system:

Who, How, When, Why, Where? Can a beleiver answer all these questions concerning their belief system for an atheist? The fact that atheists exist would suggest that they still have not done so to date.

Originally posted by melatonin

The problem as I tried to point out is that these people who say they 'know' god, seem to know different 'gods'.


If you all 100% 'know' god, either most of you are wrong, or there are many gods.

God's personality is individuality. God didn't want to be alone. I don't see the different god's as so different at all. Their origins are the same.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

God's personality is individuality. God didn't want to be alone. I don't see the different god's as so different at all. Their origins are the same.

"God's" personality is Omnified, as "God" is said to Be. No one word or definition will describe "God's" personality unless it describes just that, which would Be Omnified, not only Unified. "God" can Be unified/individedduality/individual, but this oneness is merely a subset of Omnification, derived from the Omnified Existence. The origin of Gods comes from the collective consciousness of all that is. The want and need to some day Be these Gods, which We now would Be... that We now are, and all ways have Been

[edit on 4-1-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
God's personality is individuality. God didn't want to be alone. I don't see the different god's as so different at all. Their origins are the same.

But I assume your god is just a slight bit different from Pat Robertson's violent and vengeful god....well, I would hope so.

The mormons only fairly recently were provided with a revelation allowing black people to be in their priesthood. I assume your god would never have restricted that in the first place, or again, I would hope so.

I agree with the origins being the same, although, I guess I interpret this slightly differently

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
My idea for a thread?

Altheist vs. Believer Debate! Role Reversal!

I love this idea!

OK, After some thought on the subject. I want to take back something I said earlier. I said that all people are born atheists. But if an atheist in someone who consciously understands the concept of "God" and believes that it doesn't exist, then people are not born atheists because they don't have any conscious understanding of what "God" means.

A newborn doesn't hold the belief that there is no deity. A newborn has no beliefs about deities at all until they are taught. They first have to be taught about the concept of God (or Santa Claus) and then decide what they believe about the matter -- to be labeled with any sort of theistic label.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Although God worships no higher God (*** Which makes God an athiest),

You are making up your own meaning of the word atheist to fit a concept that you want to put forth. An atheist is one who believes that there is no deity. Nothing about a higher deity. Just a deity. God believes there is a deity and He is IT. God is not an atheist.

Originally posted by supercheetah
We seemed to be wired from birth to be highly receptive of religious ideas. Religion may well be encoded in our DNA, and so it would seem that atheism is what is truly outside of our nature.

What indication do you have that we seem to be wired from birth to be particularly receptive to religious ideas? We are wired from birth to be receptive to ANYTHING we are taught. We are open books with blank pages and everyone we meet has a pen.

It's just that religion, and to a higher degree a belief in a deity, are taken for granted by most of the people we meet so it's one of the things we learn from the very beginning. Many of us are baptised before we can speak and start attending church before we can understand what they're even talking about.

Of course we learn about religion and God. In my opinion there is NO indication whatsoever to believe that we are any more receptive to religion than any other subject. And there's certainly no reason to think it's in our DNA... Unless you know something you're not telling us.

If anything, we are wired to be agnostic. We don't know enough to know if there's a deity or not.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
My idea for a thread?

Altheist vs. Believer Debate! Role Reversal!

I love this idea!

I had a hunch you would, as i think others would too. It would challenge us as individuals to "see" things from the otherside, and promote tolerance. Members that participate will be less likely to get emotionally charged, and perspectives will be based more on our known facts and opinions, and less upon how we "feel" emotionally about the "debate". At the end of the dialogue, of course, we lose nothing and still believe as we believe. We just add different viewpoints to our arsenal of debating tools.

I'll start a thread like this later, unless you get to it first. I wouldn't be offended. I'll probably get to it in the next couple hours. life's obligations call ....

OK, After some thought on the subject. I want to take back something I said earlier. I said that all people are born atheists. But if an atheist in someone who consciously understands the concept of "God" and believes that it doesn't exist, then people are not born atheists because they don't have any conscious understanding of what "God" means.

THOUGHT PROVOKING! The "teacher" is stumped. thanks Benevolent Heretic. You managed to force me think, yet again.

Huh. Once again you got me thinking. Are both atheists? One who has been introduced to the concept of god, but is undecided and someone who does not consciously know about the concept of god, having never been introduced to the concept of god yet. Are they both atheists? Are they both different types of athiests? Or is one or both considered by some as "gentiles" (**by the way, i think "gentile" means to be gentile with those who do not "know", perhaps).

A newborn doesn't hold the belief that there is no deity. A newborn has no beliefs about deities at all until they are taught.

I obviously have no proof to prove otherwise, but this may not be the case. Perhaps, (just perhaps) there is some knowledge of the concept buried in the inert genetics of humanity. It is my personal opinion that maybe information we do not naturally access consciously does lie encoded in our dna. But, this is just a thought. But, of course, your point is a valid one, and to my knowledge not arguable unless one accesses the memories from that young age, somehow (ie, hypnosis perhaps???)

I'm going to ponder some things ....... (thanks Benevolent Heretic)

An atheist is one who believes that there is no deity. Nothing about a higher deity.

I have seen such a definition to include "higher deity" or something to that affect, although i may be paraphrasing now, i know i found a source for such a definition about a year or two ago. I'll try to find it again to provide a reference.

God believes there is a deity and He is IT. God is not an atheist.

Maybe you are right, maybe you are wrong. Maybe i am right, maybe i am wrong. Maybe we are both right, or both wrong. However, it is my assertion that i have seen some definitions of the term "atheist" that can be easily applied to the "god" concept.

Although not by the same logic, but most certainly by a parallel logic, one could say: Since atheists believe in no god, but do believe in themselves, then is their atheism a godly attribute, since they believe the same thing as god (they are the #1 observer, from their respective views)

thanks Benevolent Heretic for sharing some potent thoughts.