Defending your castle

The Buick O' Truth Concrete Test

Something to note- even a few minor incidents can severely degrade the effectiveness of your castle to protect you. It is suggested you have some way to reinforce your house, quickly. Masonry supplies, sandbags (lots of sandbags), two-by-fours, logs, whatever.

Oh, and cars are not cover. They turn you to slurry even faster than being out in the open, remember that.

DE

After reading this, tell me, do you think the unslaught will be from neighbors, foreigners or ets?

And, at what point is it enough?

Preparing to that extreme would mean that the government has lost control, do you think that will happen?

I'm no expert, and to be honest at this moment I am EXTREMELY unprepared for any sort of emergency scenareo. There's really no excuse for it other than laziness and finances. Of course, if it appeared like something bad was right around the corner (more so than right now) then I'd get my butt in gear.

That being said, the scenareo that I see as most likely to require that you defend your "castle" (aside from a major tsunami-style natural disaster) is a nuclear attack (most likely by terrorists). I live about 10 miles from Philadelphia, across the Delaware River in South Jersey. My biggest fear is a nuclear bomb going off in the city. The panic would be unreal. And imagine if this happened in multiple cities up and down the east coast, and even across the entire country? Assuming we survive, we won't be able to count on Acme or Wal-Mart for food, supplies, etc. Those who aren't adequately prepared will do WHATEVER IT TAKES to feed themselves and their families, as well as provide shelter. That includes invading the homes and places of business where they believe that food, supplies, shelter, etc. could be located. I hate to say it, but if my family was starving after a disaster like this, and the government wasn't able to help us, I'd probably start busting people's doors down in order to save my loved ones.

I think that more than enemy or domestic soldiers, terrorists, gangs, etc. it will be these everyday, ordinary people who are trying to feed their families that will be an individual's greatest threat against his home and family. That doesn't mean that you should discount the threat coming from those other folks I mentioned, but you should at least focus your attention and resources on the most likely.

CONTINUED...

Another thing.... if you decide to build a bunker or fortify your home, stockpile food, etc... then DON'T go around telling people! Because when the crap hits the fan, all of those people who you told and all the people who they told who didn't prepare will be coming and knocking on your door. And when you can't let them all in it is doubtful that they'll say "thanks anyway" and just leave. Then you'll have to make the sad decision to defend you and your family from these very people who you once called friends and neighbors, and even extended family. What I'm saying may sound terrible, but its realistic. In times like these you can only be looking out for yourself and your family. You can't save everyone. A bunch of people showing up at your house could quickly turn 3 months rations into 3 weeks- and then you're screwed. Even letting in a few people could be trouble. They might want you to take in their grandmother, and their in-laws, and yada yada yada. Sooner or later it gets out of control!

Sorry for rambling on, it's going to be my downfall!

But let me close with one more VERY IMPORTANT thing, IMO, that I haven't seen mentioned. I've seen several people mention the idea of having dogs or guard dogs as a means of defense. But what I haven't seen is anyone reminding people to also stock up on pet food! Just as you need to feed your family and yourself, you need to feed your pets! It doesn't take much effort or money to stock up a few large bags of kibble/dry food, cases of canned food, treats and toys to keep them entertained, extra leashes, and even sweaters and scarfs to keep them warm if the temperatures dip too low. If you have cats then you need to stock extra litter and a box, or you're going to have one big mess! I was glad to read in the paper the other day that my home state of New Jersey has passed legislation requiring resources be used to save and house animals in the event of a natural disaster and such. Terrible lessons were learned with Katrina when all the animals were left behind or folks stayed behind and died with their pets because they weren't allowed to bring them to emergency shelters. But we can't count on the government or volunteers to take care of our pets in these situations- we need to make our own plans.

Those of us who have decided to make animals a part of our lives and families are OBLIGATED to save them and care for them just as we would our human relatives. So please, remember your animals when you are making emergency plans and stockpiles!!!!

Thanks for the info.

One other question, I do not like guns, so I was thinking about a stun gun and mace or pepper spray, but, if there is a group of people outside and or if they are relatives, I feel like it is a catch 22. Someone else I know said I should develop within my plans a buddy system so that there is a balance and there are more numbers to deal with if someone tries anything. Only problem with that is when people are desparate they change like jekyl and hyde.

Any thoughts on this?

Originally posted by Siren
Thanks for the info.

One other question, I do not like guns, so I was thinking about a stun gun and mace or pepper spray, but, if there is a group of people outside and or if they are relatives, I feel like it is a catch 22. Someone else I know said I should develop within my plans a buddy system so that there is a balance and there are more numbers to deal with if someone tries anything. Only problem with that is when people are desparate they change like jekyl and hyde.

Any thoughts on this?

Of those choices, I would choose a quality stun gun every single time. If you get a good contact, it'll drop an attacker. Pepper spray or mace? At best, you may incapacitate them, but at worst, you may infuriate them.

Another good little item to carry? A P-38. Yep, a can opener. Its easily concealed and can open more than just cans, as a last resort.

I find it unlikely that one would need to defend one's home from single attackers in this scenario. I believe IF people got to the point that they were invading individual homes, they'd be operating in small bands --- and that's after they've exhausted the more fertile commercial locations. Although a stun gun and pepper spray is certainly better than nothing they aren't going to help much against even a small group of motivated interlopers.

IMHO, your goal is to make your home a less desirable target than all the other homes in your area. You can do this in two ways. First, don't make it tempting. The smell of cooking sirloin, the sound of a generator, making your stockpile public, etc. will just serve to attract people. As harsh as it sounds, what you want is for the interlopers to invade someone else's home. Path of least resistance and all that.

Once interlopers DO become attracted to your home you need to quickly turn them around before they can even get close. That requires some system of early warning (trip wires with signaling devices/lights, perimeter security systems, etc.) You don't want them making it to your front door.

No matter how many times you've watched Rambo, it is nearly impossible to single-handedly defend even a relatively small area against a motivated adversary. The good news is that the interlopers will most likely be on-foot and poorly equipped giving you a decided advantage. Plus you know your surroundings while they don't. There are alot of differing opinions on how to apply the use of force. Shotguns can be good for making a relatively large area uncomfortable to an approaching group. Large birdshot can dissuade approaching interlopers while having somewhat reduced lethality at a distance. If, however, your obvious display of force to repel them doesn't convince them to move on and they persist, you can pretty much count on the fact that they mean to do you harm if they are successful in reaching your home. At that point a stand-off weapon like a high rate of fire, high-powered rifle is my choice. Remember, you are combating these people's survival instinct. When the attractiveness of your home is superceded by the real threat to their survival it will cease to be attractive.

In my mind I feel that the current situations should dictate the level of preparedness neccessary. I mean if tensions abroad cause troubles at my door, I need to step up my level of awareness a bit more than if just the French were mad at us. We need to know when the shat hits the fan before it really happens and stock up accordingly.

If we over react, we are just setting ourselves up for a life of peeking out from behind a curtain. As of today, I am stocked to a point where I can avoid shopping for food for a month or so. That isn't over kill in my mind because we enjoy having a stocked home. I dont think the world is ending tomorrow at 5pm, so being at level one is just living aware.

I thought I should mention that while it's obviously preferable to stay at home, anyone who follows this course of action should have a contingency plan for getting the Hell out of dodge should that become necessary.

Not everyone has the luxury of secret tunnels, and even if you did, that tunnel is another possible vulnerability. I'd love to have a tunnel in my basement, but I don't, and neither do most other people living in homes as opposed to real castles.

So, if you're under siege and surrounded, you might be screwed. However, if you can build a secret room into your house, it might give you one last chance to avoid detection. If the looters become squatters, you're doubly screwed, but at least you might be able to slip out of your hidey hole in the night and exact some vengeance.

But if you have a way to distract attackers before they overwhelm your position, allowing yourself a couple of minutes to slip away, that would be good.

Better to lose your castle than lose your life.

I'll use the area surrounding my home as an example. 75 yards to the North is a tunnel underneath an old armory that runs about 500 yards and opens onto a riverbank. 100 yards to the South and East are steep hillsides dotted with boulders and stumps - impassable to vehicles. 100 yards to the West are a series of interconnected, disused factories, one of which has an observation tower that has an unobstructed view of most of the town.

It's a fair location, not the best, but not the worst either.

If I should have to leave in a hurry, I've got a couple of good options. I like options.

Every good castle has a way to leave when the situation becomes untenable.

Let us consider what "anarchy" will be like. Will it be localized like the LA riots? If not, I'd say the widespread nature of the chaos will directly affect its intensity. If you are considering defending your home, you must be thinking that civilization will be restored soon enough to come in and establish authority? If not, then you should probably evacuate.

I do not agree with the idea that roving bands of humans will be small or poorly armed. I believe it would be more like Germans and Russians circa 1945. ...Torching houses and raping just because it's what happens when humans break down mentally in large groups like that. Yes and let's consider fire shall we? I doubt the castle is flameproof. How will you defend against molotov cocktails in your raingutters? I wouldn't advise you to underestimate the fury of humans who are abandoned, hungry and who may have kids of their own to feed/protect despite their failure to prepare. I know there are many people who do not prepare because they plan to simply raid those who do prepare.

The person who suggested a river has a good idea. Anything that can move you away from people (trouble) fast, is useful. Rivers, boats, motorcycles. I'd rather have any of these than a suburban "castle". Just my two cents but remaining mobile means survival.

My ultimate advice would be to increase your communication skills and become better at joining up with others. Have skills that make you truly valuable to a larger group. The isolationist mentality is an illusion and will probably result in death if civilization fails.

Originally posted by smallpeeps
Let us consider what "anarchy" will be like. Will it be localized like the LA riots? If not, I'd say the widespread nature of the chaos will directly affect its intensity. If you are considering defending your home, you must be thinking that civilization will be restored soon enough to come in and establish authority? If not, then you should probably evacuate.

That's a possibility that one must prepare for. On the other hand, I believe that "nature abhors a vacuum" -- and so does human society. Why would authority magically disappear? Because the authorities got bored, or need a nap? the only reason that authorities would withdraw their ruling hand is because it cost them too much to rule.

In which case, someone elese will set up shop as your local oppressor. Rome wasn't burnt in a day--it slowly "gave up" the unprofitable parts of the empire, and local warlords took over. I think that is a model you can expect in any period of decentralization. The breakup of Yugoslavia is an instructive example.

I do not agree with the idea that roving bands of humans will be small or poorly armed. I believe it would be more like Germans and Russians circa 1945. ...Torching houses and raping just because it's what happens when humans break down mentally in large groups like that.

I for one am not sure to what you are referring in 1945. When the Russians invaded and occupied Germany? You're right that such times are best dealt with by fleeing.


As for the "roving bands," I tihnk that comes more from movies like Red Dawn and The Stand than any sort of historical precedent. Roving bands of marauders? How will they rove without gasoline? Such a situation might last a week or two, but no more. And a "castle" could stand up to such.

The upward limit on the size of marauding bands will be organization. Unless they are rogue military units, their own penchant for drugs and mayem will keep them from doing much besides killing each other.

The LA riots are an excellent example, by the way.

How did the authorities originally plan to handle it? By turning off the electricity in Watts, so that no one could get gasoline to leave. Then, the rioters looted their own neighborhoods. Until Bush got fed up and sent in the military.

What kept the rioters from spreading out into suburban L.A.? Middle class neighborhoods got together, and parked all their cars at either end of their streets, and formed armed patrols. When a pickup full of rioters pulled up, the bourgeoisie would hold up their deer rifles and SKS's, and the pickups would keep driving. The L.A. chief of police was incensed. But nothing was done, even when the neighborhood associations fired on passersby they said were armed with molotov cocktails.

My ultimate advice would be to increase your communication skills and become better at joining up with others. Have skills that make you truly valuable to a larger group. The isolationist mentality is an illusion and will probably result in death if civilization fails.

I would suggest joining NOW, before SHTF. Church, lionsclub, masons, jaycees, volunteer fire department. Those social clubs become the building blocks of 'neighborhood associations' that limit violence. In the absence of authority, they form the basis of trust: personal relationships.

I have been trying to write a "play your own adventure" for survivalists on ATS, and one of the things I'm trying to write into is, what will happen to groceries other retail when the lights go out. unless half of US become bands of warlords, you could probably get a temporary job helping some storeowner barricade his glass storefront, then guarding the crowd that comes to barter.

Where I live, one home in four reports owning a gun. THOSE people aren't going rioting anytime soon. They are middle class, and prize order, even if it means shooting at strangers. I am confident they will not allow all the food in the supermarket to be waisted by kids with baseball bats, like in Watts. To be a rioter, you have to have nothing to lose. Most Americans outside of da ghetto will not feel that way.

.

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
In which case, someone elese will set up shop as your local oppressor. Rome wasn't burnt in a day--it slowly "gave up" the unprofitable parts of the empire, and local warlords took over. I think that is a model you can expect in any period of decentralization. The breakup of Yugoslavia is an instructive example.

This is a good point Doc, as always from you. It does matter how fast or slow the creep or rush of destruction flows across the land. Is it nuclear war (mass pain for everybody) or just total collapse of infrastructure (no food on shelves)? I agree with your added comments and it insists one be flexible with their plans. I'm just saying to buy backpacks and dirtbikes first before fortifying the home base. I know people who live in the city but who keep a local storage unit stocked for bug-out. That's gotta be number one on people's list.

I for one am not sure to what you are referring in 1945. When the Russians invaded and occupied Germany? You're right that such times are best dealt with by fleeing.

Yes, you nailed the image I meant. Soviets coming into Germany. But I was also thinking of that Comet collision book Lucifer's Hammer where gangs of cannibals become mobile and have mobile artillery. Did you read "The Road"? I think cannabalism will happen and when this does happen, it'll cause people to divide into groups along these lines. Man-eaters and those who aren't.

As for the "roving bands," I tihnk that comes more from movies like Red Dawn and The Stand than any sort of historical precedent. Roving bands of marauders? How will they rove without gasoline? Such a situation might last a week or two, but no more. And a "castle" could stand up to such.

They don't need Gasoline if there's no authority. They can eat their dead and lay seige to a "castle". I am serious about cannablism as it seems to be really obvious this happens in times of stress. I think we'll see blood-cults and people-eaters who are organizing people to survive. I think they'll be able to camp on anybody's doorstep for weeks. Gasoline? Nah, these folks can move as slow as zombies and still get the job done.

The upward limit on the size of marauding bands will be organization. Unless they are rogue military units, their own penchant for drugs and mayem will keep them from doing much besides killing each other.

I tend to lean more toward such a force being led by somebody powerful enough to hold order. Really you don't need much brutality to hold a group together when they've all eaten human flesh and are desperate for a collective purpose.

The LA riots are an excellent example, by the way.

Great stuff in your post. I was in Denver for the LA riots, so I was safe.

But again there we had people bent on destruction and acting without civil restraint. Plus, the conditions in the center of the riot would have been much worse if say the unrest had spread to Ventura County, Riverside, etc. I know it's laughable that a race riot would spread like that, but some kind of pandemic could easily cripple California, for example.

There were authorities, and there were pockets of safety around the unrest. If both conditions fail to exist, it's time to bug out, not see how long your drywall can hold up.

I would suggest joining NOW, before SHTF. Church, lionsclub, masons, jaycees, volunteer fire department. Those social clubs become the building blocks of 'neighborhood associations' that limit violence. In the absence of authority, they form the basis of trust: personal relationships.

Well said. Good advice all around. Relationships must be maintained to survive, at least for families and everyone who isn't lone-wolf mcquaid.

I have been trying to write a "play your own adventure" for survivalists on ATS, and one of the things I'm trying to write into is, what will happen to groceries other retail when the lights go out. unless half of US become bands of warlords, you could probably get a temporary job helping some storeowner barricade his glass storefront, then guarding the crowd that comes to barter.

I like this idea. We could have a choose your own adventure type thread here and you could be the Dungeon Master. Or is that that the Disaster Master? Probably there'd be some interesting things learned regarding how people think in crisis situations and what really happens.

Where I live, one home in four reports owning a gun. THOSE people aren't going rioting anytime soon. They are middle class, and prize order, even if it means shooting at strangers. I am confident they will not allow all the food in the supermarket to be waisted by kids with baseball bats, like in Watts. To be a rioter, you have to have nothing to lose. Most Americans outside of da ghetto will not feel that way.

But are we assuming a scenario where the cops all turn in their badges al la Katrina? Cause if so, those neighborshoods will become war zones and my money is on the chaos, not the homeowners.

Originally posted by smallpeeps

Where I live, one home in four reports owning a gun. THOSE people aren't going rioting anytime soon. They are middle class, and prize order, even if it means shooting at strangers. I am confident they will not allow all the food in the supermarket to be waisted by kids with baseball bats, like in Watts. To be a rioter, you have to have nothing to lose. Most Americans outside of da ghetto will not feel that way.

But are we assuming a scenario where the cops all turn in their badges al la Katrina? Cause if so, those neighborshoods will become war zones and my money is on the chaos, not the homeowners.

My neighborhood and county are fairly cohesive; most people in these parts are MORE socially conservative than the law of the land. People in my hood don't have many simmering feuds that would come out when the authority disappears---other than those punk kids who wont turn that godforsaken rap music DOWN!!! . . .

The frightening thing about the middle class, the thing that Marx didn't count on, is how cohesive it really is. Unless you spend a lot of time with them, you can be fooled by things the media says. During the good times they might argue political parties, but when it comes to their kids being safe, and the danger of "strangers" coming down our road, I think you'd see a level of groupthink that his hard to overestimate.

If the rules evaporate, they will do so both for the marauders and the bourgoisie. Roving bands might find themselves to be the hunted for a change, and with an open season.

Particularly without courts and civil rights attorneys, I expect that the middle class might be o.k. with the concept of "instant justice," however it is applied.

[edit on 20-12-2006 by dr_strangecraft]

The optimal situation for the chaos would be your hood to gather up as a group, and establish a perimeter. Your resources might be needed- well, that's why you pack extra. As the most prepared, your home might end up a headquarters, or a strongpoint. That of course means that you'll have more defenders, which is never a bad thing.

DE

Yeah, that makes sense. I just think it's better to have say five houses (five families who are known to you?) within motorcycle journey of home. It's better to have five friends who make minimal preparations than to have one who makes optimum preparations but all five friends go to that "castle". Better to have a series of houses located within 200 miles of one another, and corresponding homeowners/families who are willing to agree on flight to the others if needed.

But along the lines of the thread, if I had a nice location which was defendable, I'd still want a tunnel which led to a distant exit so that I could always fire upon the perimeter of my home from a ways off. If the enemy comes with flame, I think lead would be preferable to water.

Also I like WyrdeOne's question about the legality of deactivated booby traps or perimeter defense. Obviously once there are killings in broad daylight, the law goes out the window so some piano wire strung correctly or some deadfalls might be very practical. Maybe design the property such that only one path leads to the house and said path is fully trapped/defended.

Also I'd want my "castle" to be fairly nondescript and looking almost abandoned from a distance. Anyway, keep the discussion going because it never hurts to have a secure place to hide.

[edit on 20-12-2006 by smallpeeps]

Much depends on what your defending against. A natural disaster would be easier to prepare for then some kind of Anarchy. Rather then repeat what has already Im going to add this think about your plan or before you act.

For example if a tidal wave comes and there only one or two roads that lead to higher ground it may be quicker to walk or ride a bicycle rather then join the logger jam of traffic.

As for a situation where you face a Anarchy type situation the law may not be of use if you face rogue police and military units. If you choose to defend a geographical area (your property is to small an area unless you live in a rural area) your going to need the ability to knock out tanks , helicopters and aircraft.

Much of your preparation will have to take place before the need to act comes.
Who will be defending your geographical area ?
Where will you stock pile supply's ?
What will you do with the people that aren't taking part in the defense of your area ?
Can all the members of your militia read a map and use a compass ?

During "peace" time you will need to hold discreet excises in order to develop communication's systems night time patrols e.t.c
Note the geography of your local area the likes of a river isn't a barrier if you can move people and equipment across the water.

Do you hold the bridge that spans the river or do you destroy the bridge ?

The enemy will attempted various guises to recon your area be prepared for all possibles including "refuges" hold back on the firepower until the enemy is making a genuine attack. Bear in mind that the enemy will be very interested in the location of your machine gun nests e.t.c


[edit on 21-12-2006 by xpert11]

Another good idea is learn some form of self defense. just incase you run out of ammunitions or you find yourself in close quarters. and you dont need to carry the extra weight of weapons, its just your body. it will also keep you in shape.
jiu jistsu is a good choice because its very applicable and it works. But any discipline will work decently enough.

You should have defenses for your home regardless of whether it's a SItx scenario or not. A good starting point would be steel doors with wide angle peep holes, double key deadbolts, wireless alarm sensors on all windows and doors, security cameras covering all points of approach, perimeter alarms to alert you to intruders both day and night, and firearms strategically placed throughout your home.

Also conduct drills with your family as to how to respond to an intruder. Have code words that only your family knows. They should dictate their response to any given situation whether it's the presence of an intruder or a hostage scenario.

You're family should know never to surrender their weapons hoping to bargain for the life of another family member. If they do, you're all as good as dead. There are alot of things worse than death in this life. Just keep in mind that a home invader would never let you see their face and allow you to live to identify them. They're not coming for tea and cookies, but mean to do serious harm to you and your loved ones. If they know your home, you can bet there not there just for your stereo or tv!

Being aware of an intruder's presence and preventing them from gaining access to your home should be your primary goal. Knowing someone is there will give you a chance to arm yourself and see that all your family members are safe. Should they then gain entrance, they'll be the ones at a disadvantage rather than you.

Dogs make good alarms, but they also alert others to your presence. I'll take a motion detector over a dog anytime. Also in a Sitx scenario they're another mouth to feed, and will frighten off any game that may be present.



[edit on 3/2/08 by LLoyd45]

reply to post by DeusEx


The quick dry cement cracked me up. My one experience with it was a commercial pipe job setting a 6"sewer pipe. Three guys were involved. One put a product called jet set into a five gallon bucket labeled joint cement. Well we set up the tripod and shot elevation cemented the pipe in and went back to the tripod to check and it was already rock hard two inches to low. Chipped it away and took a break and another guy comes along and does the same thing. We come back and he is chipping it away. We all go to lunch and come back and the pipe is hard again 2 inches too low and no one is around. If you buy a product called jet set, be sure you read the instructions. It can be drilled, chiseled, or cut with a concrete saw in about 7-8 minutes.....Store it in a container with the same instructions.