dutch voting to ban burqa in public

the dutch are voteing to ban the burqa (full body& face covering worn by some muslim women) in public on the grounds of disturbing public order and safety.

im sure there will be loads of outrage about this but as far as i am aware, the burqa is a personal and not religious choice of attire.

story

Well I am ready for the outrage!

I totally agree with their decision! Don't understand why it took so long for them to decide.

The full burqas are intimidating. Especially to children.
We no longer have nuns wearing full on habits anymore as it was perceived as being
intimidating. So I see no reason why anyone living in a western society should wear one of these ridiculous things. The head scarf and other types of hajibs are acceptable in most muslim countries. I so no reason why the streets of western countries should resemble shi-hite Iran.

If I went to live in Iran I would have to wear one as it is the cultural expectation.
That is why I would never live there.
I think they should offer the same cultural respect in western countries.
But thats just my cents worth. It seems respect is a one way street with some
cultures.

Well rpv.blogspot.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">Italy banned burqas and attached an E2000 fine to the act. France outlawed Islamic head scarves in schools…

On that note the Dutch are also debating an “assimilation” law right now that requires people wishing to immigrate to the Netherlands to speak Dutch (which is anticipated to pass). This goes hand in hand with the expected deportation of some 20K+ immigrants by 2008.

I recently read an article where the Dutch are actually paying the people on the list “to be deported” to leave earlier in order to speed-up the process.



mg

I am all for the ban. This whole issue be it turban related, burka (sp) or what ever they call them has gotten too far out of hand world wide.

Just a thought but perhaps they should rewrite the EU and US (or ALL) constitutions and ban them all. That certainly would not be a first, Saudi Arabia requires all females to change into Muslim dress before getting off an international flight in their country.

I believe inMichigan they wanted to have their rivers licens picture taken with it on and it was pretty much laughed out of court. In my small town your not allowed to wear a face covering unless it's halloween. Your eyes must be clearly visable.

mikell

How many people there actually wear a full burqa? I see Muslim women wearing head scarfs from time to time, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone walking down the street or in the subway wearing one in New York.

edit:

Muslims should take a lesson from orthodox Jewish women (who are also not supposed to show their hair), they wear fashionable wigs instead of a scarf.

[edit on 11/17/2006 by djohnsto77]

Originally posted by Flighty

If I went to live in Iran I would have to wear one as it is the cultural expectation.
That is why I would never live there.
I think they should offer the same cultural respect in western countries.
But thats just my cents worth. It seems respect is a one way street with some
cultures.

No, you wouldn't. The only expectation placed on women in Iran is to cover ones head and other fleshy bits. Kind of like how, only fifty-sixty years ago in western society, it was considered rude to show anything above the ankles. Alot of men and women would wear hats in public too.

Don't confuse Hijab with the Burkha. The Hijab is a religious requirement, applicable to men as well though rarely enforced, whilst the Burkha is cultural attire.

On topic....

Good. I hate the Burkha and what it stands for. It is intimidating and can be used to cover criminal activity. Fine by me if the lasses want to cover their heads and legs, but don;t go around in a full body, two-man tent.

It's NOT required by Islam.

Originally posted by djohnsto77
How many people there actually wear a full burqa? I see Muslim women wearing head scarfs from time to time, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone walking down the street or in the subway wearing one in New York.

edit:

Muslims should take a lesson from orthodox Jewish women (who are also not supposed to show their hair), they wear fashionable wigs instead of a scarf.

[edit on 11/17/2006 by djohnsto77]

I see them all the time in my town (Reading, UK). To be honest though, it seems to me that recent converts are the ones wearing it, as some sort of "look at me, I'm different badge". Plenty of poor white girls who have been sucked into some marriage with a muslim guy and then forced to cover themselves and live by sexist rules.

They obviously know little of the religion they "converted" too. They should, if asked by their spouses to cover up, ask them to do the same. It is required that men also cover up in Islam. Only to the point of the top of the head and the ankles. No different to some Christians, or Jews even.

Originally posted by djohnsto77
How many people there actually wear a full burqa? I see Muslim women wearing head scarfs from time to time, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone walking down the street or in the subway wearing one in New York.

Very few from what I have seen in Detroit, Chicago and MKE areas. The article said that they only had a few dozen in the Netherlands who wear them and they make up 5% of the population which according to the cia fact book is approx. 16,491,461.

This is interesting. The Netherlands has been really struggling with finding a balance between their conservative muslim population and their own liberal ideals. Its a tough nut. On the one hand, the Dutch are rightly angry and offended by what they see as a minority population who reject their culture. They feel that immigrants to the Netherlands should embrace the Dutch way of life.

On the other hand, by passing laws like this the Dutch themselves violate the freedoms they are trying to protect. The burka is a part of a religious and cultural experience that differs from the Dutch's, but by outlawing it they are implicitly saying that their culture is superior to Islamic culture. They also kneecap freedom of speech and freedom of religion. And that is a slippery slope. What is next?

I don't know what the answer to this one is. It's a toughie.

let me pose this question, if a county imposed a law that noone could wear pants because it was deemed intimidateing. whould you give the same reaction.

before you say its not the same thing, they are both articals of clothing that are worn due to religion belief (pants and underware becasue of modesty wich basicly all religion teaches)

personaly im not religous but i am of the view that you should respect other peoples religions and cultures, they are trying to ban the burqa, if you ban the burpqa why not the caps jewish men sometimes wear, is it not the same thing or what about the popes hat, isnt that intimidateing? if your going to ban one thing why not at least be consistant?


my 2 cents
-IvZM

Originally posted by Shaktimaan
The burka is a part of a religious and cultural experience that differs from the Dutch's, but by outlawing it they are implicitly saying that their culture is superior to Islamic culture.

As has been said, the burka is not required by Islam, it is a cultural
thing though.

In my opinion Dutch culture is superior to Islamic culture and a few
western cultures as well.



I myself am an advocate of freedom, but religious freedom is one
I've always sort of not liked, I mean I believe we should all have
the freedom to believe whatever when it comes to religion, but
requirements of religion like dresss and such should'nt be protected.

If you come to a western culture to live, than you should assimilate.

Originally posted by Shaktimaan
This is interesting. The Netherlands has been really struggling with finding a balance between their conservative muslim population and their own liberal ideals. Its a tough nut. On the one hand, the Dutch are rightly angry and offended by what they see as a minority population who reject their culture. They feel that immigrants to the Netherlands should embrace the Dutch way of life.

I don't know what the answer to this one is. It's a toughie.

Uh why was all this immigration done in the first place and who was responsible for it? There is no way those people could not have known the probable outcome of all of this and now they must be laughing at all the problems.

Originally posted by iori_komei

I myself am an advocate of freedom, but religious freedom is one
I've always sort of not liked, I mean I believe we should all have
the freedom to believe whatever when it comes to religion, but
requirements of religion like dresss and such should'nt be protected.

If you come to a western culture to live, than you should assimilate.

Well said my friend! If I would shoose to live in Arabian country I would also adjust myself to the standard living and that is what they should do too. I live in a Western open society and there is no place for people that walk totaly discovered on the street, it is like seeing walking ghosts on the street, pritty scary. In Amsterdam you see a lot of these womans on the streets and in public transport and I don't give a damn about it, but when a woman like this is sitting or standing next to me, I walk to the other side because I don't feel confortable.

I think they should be able to wear it if they're just walking down the street. They should also be able to wear it on public transport, subject to having to take it off for search if asked by the police or transportation officials, and should not be able to wear it in any other situation where it would endanger the public safety (such as driving) or on any official ID card photo.

I'm a big believer in freedom of religion, unless it affects the freedom and safety of others.

[edit on 11/17/2006 by djohnsto77]

I applaud Denmark for their steadfastness in defending thier culture within thier own state. That goes for any country and any culture within their own boundaries.

Originally posted by ivzm
let me pose this question, if a county imposed a law that noone could wear pants because it was deemed intimidateing. whould you give the same reaction.

before you say its not the same thing, they are both articals of clothing that are worn due to religion belief (pants and underware becasue of modesty wich basicly all religion teaches)

personaly im not religous but i am of the view that you should respect other peoples religions and cultures, they are trying to ban the burqa, if you ban the burpqa why not the caps jewish men sometimes wear, is it not the same thing or what about the popes hat, isnt that intimidateing? if your going to ban one thing why not at least be consistant?


my 2 cents
-IvZM

Theres a difference between covering your whole body and not wearing pance.

And again, Jewish 'caps' do not conceal a persons identity. This is the modern world. They arnt in some backwards thirdworld country anymore where they are expected to wear these costumes. I think one of the big problems is women rights. In islam women are treated like dogs. That is not acceptable in Europe where women, and men have equal rights. They do not want that identity to change just because a mass influx of muslims. Why do they need to wear these costumes anyways? I dont believe it has anything to do with religion as much as it does control over their women.

Originally posted by darkbluesky
I applaud Denmark for their steadfastness in defending thier culture within thier own state. That goes for any country and any culture within their own boundaries.

I'm glad you like Denmark so much.

What about Holland?

[edit on 18/11/06 by stumason]

Originally posted by djohnsto77
How many people there actually wear a full burqa?

BBC - 18 November 2006

An estimated 6% of 16 million people living in the Netherlands are Muslims.

But there are thought to be fewer than 100 women who choose to wear the burqa, a traditional Islamic form of dress.

...

The Mayor of Amsterdam, Job Cohen, said he opposed the wearing of burqas in public and said women wearing one who failed to get a job should not expect welfare benefits.

"From the perspective of integration and communication, it is obviously very bad because you can't see each other so the fewer the better.

"But actually hardly anybody wears one... The fuss is much bigger than the number of people concerned," he said.