What if Jesus survivied the cross or was not crucified?

Originally posted by Toltec
Actually the majority is those who are secular in respect to religious belief, despite the apparent vocal effort of fundamentalist to say they are the majority is a lie.

Any thoughts?

Actually, my statement applies to both secular and religious people. Many secular people are just as guilty of thinking they have all the answers as religious people are. Any declaration of fact about something as debatable as the existence or non-existence of God, or God's nature, is to put limits on the limitless.

Originally posted by Sapphire


Good arguments i must say. However, what makes you think the Bible is any more real or valid than other books like the holy grail and the holy blood or even the book of Enoch for that matter which many have rejected in the church as heresay.

I give the Bible credence precisely because it was edited and censored so heavily by the church.
The fact that there have been other texts discovered and translated adds to the jigsaw puzzle and although the church may consider some of these "gnostic texts" as heretical, for me personally they help to make the bigger picture clearer.
That's not to say that I take the Bible literally. I believe that to understand the Bible you really have to read it and then read the history surrounding it and add to that the bits that were left out. Once you have collated all of this information it is plain that the Bible does hold some truth. But it is also plain that it is not the whole story.

I have to admit that I do not trust the church one little bit. It's whole formation stinks of conspiracy. My biggest fear is that they have got themselves into a hole that they will never get out of and that will conceal the truth from their followers for a long time to come.

If man is evolving then the idea that one day (say for instance in a million years), he will be able to do the kind of things, which are often defined with respect to, what prophets do is not unrealistic. These people are simply another species of the genus homo and quite frankly, when they are born in our society. There reaction and responses, are the result, of adapting to environmental conditions of which there role is emphasized.

Of course there are those which can be defined from the context of being evil, but to be clear. A lot of that has to do, with the way they are treated and the stigma applied, to what for them is simply a
physiological capacity.

A major portion of the DNA in humans is dormant; I submit, that in the case in what are called prophets, those dormant genes are active, or in some other way, the genetic profile is different.

I further submit, that what has been done in respect to these people, makes no sense whatsoever.

Any thoughts?

[Edited on 14-11-2003 by Toltec]

Originally posted by Toltec
If man is evolving then the idea that one day (say for instance in a million years), he will be able to do the kind of things, which are often defined with respect to, what prophets do is not unrealistic. These people are simply another species of the genus homo and quite frankly, when they are born in our society. There reaction and responses, are the result, of adapting to environmental conditions of which there role is emphasized.

Of course there are those which can be defined from the context of being evil, but to be clear. A lot of that has to do, with the way they are treated and the stigma applied, to what for them is simply a
physiological capacity.

A major portion of the DNA in humans is dormant; I submit, that in the case in what are called prophets, those dormant genes are active, or in some other way, the genetic profile is different.

I further submit, that what has been done in respect to these people, makes no sense whatsoever.

Any thoughts?

[Edited on 14-11-2003 by Toltec]

If it's all just physiological, then where does the need to bring spiritual guidance or inspiration fit in. I mean, if there is nothing divine about the "mutations" of these people, why do they all carry with them such a divine message? Unless, the mutation opened a connection to that spiritual source from which the teachings are inspired , in which case it's irrelevant how they are able to achieve the connection. Only that they are.

My impression is Jezebel, that in us there is something inherently divine, in other words, in all things. Mankind is so preoccupied with what the means to him, they are not concerned with what that could mean to God.

It would entail seeing issues from all points of view.

Any thoughts?

Originally posted by Toltec
It's interesting you should make that comment Jagd, as rather, one is inclined to consider the opposite as more valid, especially in light of 1 Corinthians 15:14-20.


Specifically, what evidence exists of his death and resurrection outside of the Bible?

A lot more than simply doing good deeds has been justified by this event, forgiveness for sins which had not been committed seems a rather interesting advantage.

Lets face it, if a person does something on impulse that is inherently wrong, he or she can at the very least know that going to heaven wont be an issue.

The same thing applies the next time it happens, poor impulse control being part of Gods plan has a myriad of advantages would you not agree?


Any thoughts?

As a matter of fact, Toltec, I do have thoughts.

My first thought is that you have some kind of fixation probblem with a religion you don't seem to believe. This belief and this belief only. How utterly borish, I must say.

Now, let me assure you, no man will survive after his heart has stopped beating for such a time that the blood seperates from the water. Remember, the soldier sticking in the side with the spear? The water coming out?

Evidence outside of the Bible? The Gospels are a collection of writings from different people and their seperate perceptions of Christ's life and death. Three is a witness. Believe or not, your God-given choice.

Another flash bulletin for those who choose not to listen, if He didn't die and pay the price for our shortcomings as the perfect sacrifice, then we will go to Hell.

The word Pascha is the Hebrew word which means Passover.
As Orthodox Christians we uses Pascha instead Easter. Pascha is used because it describes what Christ did for us.
Just as the blood of the sacrificed lamb kept the angel of death away from the Hebrews (Ex. 12: 3-49)
so it is Christ's sacrifice as the New Passover Lamb (1 Cor. 5:7) and His blood allows us to "pass from death to life." (John 5: 24)

The Scriptures record, "...every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God" (I John 4:3).
"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).

Our sins separate us from God (Isaiah 59:1, 2),
leaving us spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1). To save us, the Son of God assumed our humanity, and being without sin "He condemned sin in the flesh" (Romans 8:3).
In His mercy, God forgives our sins when we confess them and turn from them, giving us strength to overcome sin in our lives.
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (I John 1:9).

The Apostle Paul teaches in Romans 6: 1-6 that in baptism we experience Christ's death and resurrection.

Jesus said, "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).
From its beginning, the Church has taught that the "water" is the baptismal water and the "Spirit" is the Holy Spirit.
The new birth occurs in baptism where we die with Christ, are buried with Him, and are raised with Him in the newness of His resurrection, being joined into union with Him in His glorified humanity (Acts 2:38; Romans 6:3, 4).

Jesus said of the bread and wine at the Last Supper, "This is my body", "This is my blood", and "Do this in remembrance of Me" (Luke 22: 19,20), His followers believe -- and do -- nothing less.
In the Eucharist, we partake mystically of Christ's Body and Blood, which impart His life and strength to us. The celebration of the Eucharist was a regular part of the Church's life from its beginning.
Early Christians began calling the Eucharist "the medicine of immortality" because they recognized the great grace of God that was received in it.

, St. Paul quotes a creed to remind Timothy, "God...was revealed in the flesh..." (I Timothy 3:16). The creeds were approved by Church councils, usually to give a concise statement of the truth in the face of the invasion of heresy.
"How can you escape the condemnation of hell?" (Matthew 23:33).
His answer is, "God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved" (John 3:17).
There is a day of judgement coming, and there is a place of punishment for those who have hardened their hearts against God. It does make a difference how we will live this life. Those who of their own free will reject the grace and mercy of God must forever bear the consequences of that choice.

www.ocf.org...


Saint Paul, Apostle to the Gentiles, who experienced the life-creating power of the Risen Christ countless times in his astounding life, says,
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable (I Cor. 15:14),
for as he himself explains,
if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain (I Cor. 15:19).
The Apostle Paul, to whom Christ appeared many times, though he was not a disciple during His earthly life, testifies with conviction: But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept (I Cor. 15:20), for as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive (I Cor. 15:22).

the holy Apostle Paul asks, Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life...
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him... Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord (Rom. 6:3-4; 9; 11)

Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death (I Cor. 15:24-26


www.stvladimirs.ca...

Simply stated TC my issues are with all religions (that made clear the day I arrived) as far as fixations take a good look in the mirror.

Originally posted by Toltec
My impression is Jezebel, that in us there is something inherently divine, in other words, in all things. Mankind is so preoccupied with what the means to him, they are not concerned with what that could mean to God.

It would entail seeing issues from all points of view.

Any thoughts?

I agree that we all contain elements of the divine, as in, "relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god." If God is infinite then everything in existence must be a part of God.

I guess the question would be, can a Human mind be endowed with the comprehension required to understand an Infinite God in the same sense as God understands itself? Wouldn't it be too much information to be constrained by the human mind? If so, then, I think that it would be more likely for God to masquerade as a human, than for a human (while they are in a living body) to share the same knowledge as God .

I wonder if even the most intelligent human, could conceive fully of what infinity actually entails. We can kind of understand the principles involved, but, I don't think the human brain has the capacity to comprehend what an "infinite God" really means. That's why so many human personality traits get assigned to God.

If God really is infinite, then there are no limits that can be assigned. If God wanted to appear as a human or an alien or a Muppet, there would be no reason why it wouldn't be possible.

You are also right that people are so busy tailoring the teachings they "study", to fit their ideals, that they miss whatever message it is that God may be trying to send them.

BTW, for those who believe in condemning others to an eternity of torment and pain,
An infinite God would have no need to judge mankind or send them to "hell", since hell would be contained within the infinite as well. Those being punished or tormented, in fire and brimstone, would still exist and be a part of the whole, or God. If it were possible for hell to exist outside of God, then that would mean God is limited and that there is the potential for something else to be greater than God.

Just a thought.

A response I can agree with jezebel, relevant to the issues of religion is to keep an open mind. Given what is known today, in respect to the size of the Universe and what in all probability exist beyond (such as parallel universe's), we also seem interconnected. To the reality of any conclusions, we have much to learn.


What is important is that we generate new ideas and for the sake of all concerned and not engage in ego trips over things, we still do not fully understand.

By the way, I wish to apologize for any misunderstanding that occurred yesterday, in respect to my modifying a post. Personally I meant no malice and the reality is, while I could have posted the content in question in a new post I simply wanted to make clear my initial response was made jokingly.

Any thoughts?

[Edited on 15-11-2003 by Toltec]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Another flash bulletin for those who choose not to listen, if He didn't die and pay the price for our shortcomings as the perfect sacrifice, then we will go to Hell.

Take the blue pill, Neo.

Query: If Jesus did escape crufiction one way or another and havea family, then what would happen if a vampire (they do exist... if they didn't, then not every single culture on the planet would have its own variety) were to drain the blood of one of his descendents?

Originally posted by Toltec
Simply stated TC my issues are with all religions (that made clear the day I arrived) as far as fixations take a good look in the mirror.

Take a look in the mirror? What, are in in kindergarten now? Would you like for me to tally the "Let me help you see Christianity my twisted way" Threads you've started since you've showed up? Your issue is with all religion? Gee, I guess you think all religion is one, so you attack it through one.

It is people like you that caused me to leave the religio-sewer system forum.

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Another flash bulletin for those who choose not to listen, if He didn't die and pay the price for our shortcomings as the perfect sacrifice, then we will go to Hell.

Take the blue pill, Neo.

Color me slow, but what are you saying, Lev?

Originally posted by Toltec


By the way, I wish to apologize for any misunderstanding that occurred yesterday, in respect to my modifying a post. Personally I meant no malice and the reality is, while I could have posted the content in question in a new post I simply wanted to make clear my initial response was made jokingly.

Any thoughts?

[Edited on 15-11-2003 by Toltec]

Yes, I have a thought. You should have known better.

Originally posted by Toltec
Jagd what about the verses in Acts we discussed in the past, which clearly present that Jesus did not die on cross?

Your misunderstanding of the words and your intense desire to discredit the teachings of Christianity does not make it so. No words in Acts make it clear that Christ did not die on the cross in Calvary.

So, how about those ignorant, backward Toltecs, huh?

Another interesting "what if..." scenario is, what if he just died. No resurrection. Just a simple death as much as another man would die if nailed to a cross and stuck with a spear in his side.
The Body, 2001
It's a great movie. It shows what people would do to protect their belief system.
Sorry if it's a bit OT.

Sorry, didn't catch the movie, but I can give the answer to the question. Christianity is all for nothing, the price has not been paid and Hell will have a toasty corner for me.

Jesus lived a long life, he went to Afganistan/India, got married, had kids, died at old age and was burried in Kashmir

Tomb of Jesus in Kashmir:
www.tombofjesus.com...

Various documents that mention Jesus:

www.tombofjesus.com...

klick on images to view them in detail and to read english translation.

Also, Muslims dont believe the crucifixion story either.

Wasnt it Jesus who said something like the greatest act of love is sacrificing yor life for others? Well, maybe he knew somebody else is about to die on the cross for him, so thats why he said it....