Muslim leader: It's the woman's fault who is raped. She's "uncovered meat"

Riley & Resistancia when you make comments that all women are at risk of rape, that is an emotionally charged statement and can only be directed towards men. Making such comments does nothing but makes a man feel insulted and I personaly find it offensive to be thought of as a potential rapist. All men are not rapists, statistics prove that but you are both tainting all for the actions of a few.

You both seem to have convinced yourselves that this Mufti has been behind the organised rape of women. If that is so why have the authorities not arrested him for same. The problem with people of such attitudes is that if you seek to shut them up that does not solve the problem, people of such extreme views do not go away. What is needed with such people is dialogue to find out why they think that way. One must seek to educate such people and to change their views, failure to do so does not remove the problem.

My interpretation of free speech is that if this man had not been allowed to say what he did then nobody would be aware of what he was doing. Its better to hear whats somebody is saying rather than having them plotting away unheard somewhere. You say you want to fight misogyny, how do you fight if you cannot hear.

I wonder if a Law suit could be launched against the Islamic Church in Australia, similar to Law suits against Christian Churches for sex crimes from there Priests etc in the past.

I mean like this Mufti's words praticly excuse rape against scantily dressed women, surely a rape that has taken place and the perpertrator had listened to his sermons or been part of his congregation could use his spirtual leaders words as his defence or excuse and ultimately the Islamic Church of Australia would bare resposibliity and be open to Damages ?

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Riley & Resistancia when you make comments that all women are at risk of rape, that is an emotionally charged statement and can only be directed towards men. Making such comments does nothing but makes a man feel insulted and I personaly find it offensive to be thought of as a potential rapist. All men are not rapists, statistics prove that but you are both tainting all for the actions of a few.

You both seem to have convinced yourselves that this Mufti has been behind the organised rape of women. If that is so why have the authorities not arrested him for same. The problem with people of such attitudes is that if you seek to shut them up that does not solve the problem, people of such extreme views do not go away. What is needed with such people is dialogue to find out why they think that way. One must seek to educate such people and to change their views, failure to do so does not remove the problem.

My interpretation of free speech is that if this man had not been allowed to say what he did then nobody would be aware of what he was doing. Its better to hear whats somebody is saying rather than having them plotting away unheard somewhere. You say you want to fight misogyny, how do you fight if you cannot hear.

There you go again assuming things again...like I/we are deaf !!!

You need to stop this personal vendetta you have against riley and myself.
We are exercising our right to FREE SPEECH. You can not make us change our view or shut us up. 10 points for trying. I do not think either of us will break.

The mods need to deal with you.



[edit on 31-10-2006 by resistancia]

I haven't read the mufti's statement, but I am familiar with his message and that is not to tempt fate. Men have hormones and some were never taught proper boundaries. Women should not go about in public as exposed as they do, first because of the dignity factor, but also because there are sick, perverted individuals out there who take such actions as an invitation to act on their desires.

I don't agree with women having to wear tents and veils and I don't agree with men who think they are justified in raping women, but there is validity in the mufti's statement, even if we don't like his wording.

Those who ignore the message and use the language as a basis for striking out at Islam are guilty of the same thing that Muslims were guilty of when the Pope called for dialog between Christians and Muslims by invoking the unfortunate language of a medieval Pope.

This discussion is quickly losing its rationality, if indeed there ever was any.

I say that if the participants' views are beyond mutability, then perhaps the discussion has outlived its usefulness.


[edit on 2006/11/1 by GradyPhilpott]

One participant seems intent on straying from the thread...

I have mentioned this twice already.

In Pace Always
resi

as evolved as we are as a species, it's things like this that throw it all back to the bronze age.
hoping "quickening" is a real thing...

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
I haven't read the mufti's statement, but I am familiar with his message and that is not to tempt fate. Men have hormones and some were never taught proper boundaries. Women should not go about in public as exposed as they do, first because of the dignity factor, but also because there are sick, perverted individuals out there who take such actions as an invitation to act on their desires.

[edit on 2006/10/31 by GradyPhilpott]

This same concept of yours could be applied to nearly anything, like do not walk the streets as there are terrorists in the world that may blow you up, Dont go to nightclubs as some sick puppy may spike your drink, Dont attend Mosques as you may get recruited for Jihad, Dont attend Church as the priest might molest you, Dont visit china you might become a Communist, Dont go swimming you may drown.

Women have the right in Western Society to wear as they wish, if people like this mufti dont like it , well they can pack things up and return to there sand castle.

Those are irrational interpretations of the intent of my post. It doesn't take much intelligence at all to twist meanings, but it takes considerable intelligence to distill a message down to its essence.

I suggest that you take a stab at the latter.

Regardless of your posts intent, you have given me little reason to doubt that you beleive that women who wear mini Skirts and Bikinis have no dignity, Like you have some tab on what makes another person feel dignified or undignified or any emotion for that matter.

But each to there own, birds of a feather, when in rome.


May peace be with you.

Actually i have a question to people in this thread who see validity in this Muftis statements .


Do you beleive if we wipped around the world to the Hundreds of nations, cultures, like pacific Islands, Afican tribes, Western nations where scantily dressed (or practically Nude) women are a frequently seen and covered all these women in Long Dresses or Burkas that the instance of sexual crimes would reduce dramatically ? I personally dont think so.

I personally think that alot of this stems from back grounds and up bringings of peoples, people like this Mufti where raised in a Nation where women dress from head to toe and dont expose an inch of flesh and when he CHOSE to move to a western nation he simply couldnt handle the fact that people are different, so much so that instead of trying to change himself he wants to change the people around him.

Perhaps older people say 70+ find it hard to deal with as well, seen as back in the 50s people dressed alot more modestly.

Originally posted by NumberCruncher
Regardless of your posts intent, you have given me little reason to doubt that you beleive that women who wear mini Skirts and Bikinis have no dignity, Like you have some tab on what makes another person feel dignified or undignified or any emotion for that matter.

It truly comes down to culture and society. In Mexico, women who wear tank tops are considered whores. (My neighbor told me this after she came back from Mexico.) The girls, from America, who wore tank tops couldn't understand why men were giving them dirty looks and cat-calling...

Is it necessarily right? No.
But, that is the way it is. Cultural Diversity... what'cha gonna do?
Can't quite tell them to change, because then you must provide a undeniably valid argument as to why your version is more correct than theirs.. and that's *very* hard to do when it comes to culture...

Your words of 'When in Rome...' suit this perfectly. Maybe the mufti's trying to change the western culture.. that might very well be a possibility. He went about it the entirely wrong way, and it's painfully apparent.

While I do not argue anyone's dignity, I do believe Grady has a point. (By the way, I am 25 years old.) Fashionable or not, some of the girls I see walking around... well...
Let them dress how they wish -- goodness knows I do!

However, I do hope that those girls are consciously aware of what, exactly, they are advertising...
I know darn well when I dress in tight pants and shirt, people are not looking at my face, nor looking for any sign of intelligence.


....I'm just saying.

[edit on 31-10-2006 by Diseria]

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Riley & Resistancia when you make comments that all women are at risk of rape, that is an emotionally charged statement and can only be directed towards men. Making such comments does nothing but makes a man feel insulted and I personaly find it offensive to be thought ...

Sidetracking at its finest

what we have here is a pattern of random rapes ( known as'sydney gang rapes'), who do you think was/is at risk? every woman who does not succumb to pressure and just leaves, every single one in the affected areas. IF this was about shoot-outs, wouldn't the state crack down on gun owners, because guns, they say are a threat to everyone. wait they already have, after several shady shootouts that smelled like false flag attacks, but that's OT in this thread. what isn't is of course the disturbing fact that governments and media desperately downplay everything these people do, thereby employing double standards, which are obviously (especially in the combination above) directed against the majority.


I have an idea for you, stop attacking the messenger, stop using contrived drama, it's too transparent, do you (you know who you are, skip the issue and accuse world&dog of being racist) take us all for fools?

Let me summarize:

It's a well known fact that Islamic societies in general have extremely restrictive and i dare say opressive rules and laws against women and many if not most immigrants to western countries are no exception.

This has always (for a long time) been a reason for increased tensions, distrust and outright fear among indigenous populations, because you don't need to be a prophet to understand that a lack of respect doesn't remain limited to their own society. We have seen 'honor killings' (often the killer is a minor, the boss goes free due to lack of evidence, very funny indeed), we've seen riots, we've seen gang rapes in Oz and we've seen attacks that seem to single out women (recent marseille bus attack). I'd say people have damn good reason to be alarmed, don't you think?

PS: who said that all me were rapists? i think a gang or two per town would suffice, but you know that already, of course. just for the record: It's called

H y p e r b o l e

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
I haven't read the mufti's statement, but I am familiar with his message and that is not to tempt fate.

Would you agree that adequate personal defense is a better solution than limiting women's freedom of movement? is walking down the streets really 'tempting fate'? we don't live in a war zone, no-one should have to endure permanent limitations like this.

btw, i seriously DOUBT that gang rape victims were all lightly dressed, or that it would have made any difference, for that matter, because if a dozen people attacks a lone woman, the last thing that matters is her outfit.

I have discussed this thread with my wife and daughter to gain their insight into this matter. They both said the Mufti was living in the dark ages and his views do nothing to help womem or men. They also said and I agree that some of his statements were technically correct that SOME women dress in such a way with the sole intention of drawing attention to themselves, attention from men. We all agreed that no matter how a women dresses it should never invite unwarented attention or rape. Why do some women walk around half naked and then complain that men look at them, well thats what men do they look at women its a normal and natural human trait. But who know's what the mindset of a rapist is, I dont know as I am not a rapist and therefore cannot comment.

Some here have implied that this man has connections to the gang rapists but no proofs have been offered but rather speculation of such. I'm sure that if such a connection existed then this man would of been behind bars some time ago, therefore I conclude that this is not the case. This is a very sensitive and contentious issue and it is easy for one to become emotionally involved rather than being objective to the topic.

The claim that his views will tell or convince men to rape women, is that true, has anyone bothered to find out. Are men so weak minded and easily controlled that they would do such a thing. Do normal law abiding citizens go out and commit acts of crime because of the thoughts of one person. Again the statement has been made but no proofs are offered to substanciate such accusations.

Many people have extreme views on just about any topic but if those views offend us our our beliefs what should we do. Do we shut them up, lock them up etc.
Would it be better to hear such views so one could challenge that person. Telling people what to say and think will not remove their thoughts. Any attempt to do so encourages such views and only brushes the problem under the carpet and stores problems for the future.
I would rather hear what someone has to say no matter how offensive it was to myself or others. I would want to know why a person would think that way, I would challenge that persons views and I would want to educate and enlighten that person.

I reviewed this entire post and could not locate where Riley or Resi made racist comments or stated this Mufti caused any rapes. They were merely voicing their opinions regarding the situation. We women may have gotten emotional as this is a concerning situation, but so did magic mushroom and half_minded (both men)as evidenced by their strong words and retorts, which IMO, are not a bad thing if done respectfully. Freedom of Speech is a wonderful thing. I agree that it is a good thing that the Mufti exercised his right to it. It showed everyone his true colors! Not only did he tick a lot of Western women off, he embarrassed and angered many in his own religion. Maybe this will teach him a lesson to keep his extremist views to himself.

[edit on 11/1/2006 by angelofmercy]

Hello Angel, Resistancia said, quote; the Mufti should be charged with inciting rape, Riley said, quote; he is directly telling Muslim men to rape women. I found nothing in the Cleric's statement that said either. His words were archaic, ill chosen and ignorant but a long way off from telling Muslim men to commit rape. One could argue that the way Western women dress has some merit from his religeous point of view in the Muslim world but a view that is totally at odds with the Western way of life.

If one draws attention to a persons, colour, race etc. it can be construded as being racial in its intent. Example; a woman rang for an ambulance elicits nothing to the persons identity other than being female. If the statement was a black woman rang for an ambulance that implies a racial overtone.

Of course we are talking about a Muslim cleric and a person that may have some influence on others but one cannot assume that he will influence others. There is a big difference between what a person says and the actions of others. And to be perfectly honest although I am not an expert on these matters I would have thought that men who rape women would not need the encouragement of others to commit their crimes as they are all ready damaged goods if I may put it that way.

It's simple, people with such narrow minded and pure excuses for being human need to be rounded up and shot. Plain and simple, kill him. Whether it's an assassination, poison or other.........who cares? Do you? No, I didnt think you did.

These are the people who insight racial hatred and give people the excuse to go and hurt those that have done nothing. It's not every Muslims fault, especially not the women who feel they must have to cover that bit of ankle just incase Mr Ahmed gets a hard on! Imagine feeling that if you show a bit of flesh some guy form your own faith can't help but try and get his leg over. Get real. It's an excuse that will be used time and time again unless we all stand up and say, "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH", shoot him.

I'll say it again, SHOOT HIM.

Remirah.

Originally posted by Diseria
I've a humble question for Half_Minded -- you are one of few Muslims that I 'know', and therefore a great resource to this thread, as well as 'everyone else' (if you will). Do you know of a reasonably good translation of the Qu'ran? I've found this, and since it's an .edu site, I'm willing to count it as a source... but, as always with translations, I'm worried about finding thee best possible translation. I know that I'd have to learn Arabic in order to get the full beauty of the text -- but, this is where your insight might come in handy.

My attempt is to understand where the mufti *could have* gotten his train of thought. Obviously, he is an extremist, and every religion seems to have one, or three. However, it's the 'literal understanding of the text' that oftentimes leads to such extreme actions, as well as the extreme reactions. And 'tis that that I'm trying to understand -- beyond the popular 'knowledge' of the Qu'ran..

Glad to know you are making effort to better understand things. I would suggest you get a english quran from the bookstore. I have seen numerous Qurans which have english translations to every sentence just below the arabic one. And some of them also have a side explanation on the pages. These explanations provide an overview of the material on that particular page. These Qurans are very common and easy to obtain. Its a good place to start with rather than internet.

According to Islam, hijab is necessary. Hijab for women means, covering the entire body except face, hands, feet. For men, below waist and till the knee should be covered. Hijab for women is not necessary when you are with blood relatives or immediate family. It is required only when you go out the house or are among strangers (not blood related). Just like alcohol and pig are prohibited from consumption. Hijab is a must in Islamic religion.

Mufti is an extremist (not the same as terrorist). I have seen lot of extremists muslim who wud never even hurt a fly. They dont beat their wives, etc.
Today, lot of people equate islamic extremists with terrorists. Or they are just simply considered bad or evil. It really depends on the individual.

From what I understand and from what the mufti's spokeman said, the mufti was not insulting women. He was trying to say that a hijab covered women would be less prone to rape then an uncovered woman. He infact insulted men, by saying that they have no control when they see 'uncovered meat'. So from what I see, the mufti actually insulted men and said that men have no control. Which we all know is not true.

I belive his words were misinterpreted. As I said, he would risk his support and high position by insulting women blatantly. He has a lot of support from muslim families which include women. Not every muslim woman wear hijab either. So he would be stupid to insult them and lose their support. So obviously, his intention was not that. He probably made a bad analogy and when he realized that it was misinterpreted wrongly, he publicly apologized. So when the man is publicly apologizing, and he gave the true interpretation of the statement he made, then why are people adamant on proving an alternate interpretation?

Does everyone know better than the mufti about what he meant even after he specificly told everyone what he actually meant?
Obviously any interpretation or translation cannot explain the man's words better than the man himself. So why are people still bent on believing the other interpretation while ignoring the mufti's apology and his actual translation.

On top of that, people are claiming he advocates rape by muslim men on white women. Also, they are saying that he wants the gang rapists to be free or their sentence reduced.

Mufti was talking about the 'different' treatment given to muslims these days because of all the anti-muslim propoganda going on. He was merely asking that muslim criminals be given the same sentence as non-muslims. Not more or less.

Some women are still feeling so offended. Even though the man gave his true translation and apologized. And if you wondering, then yeah, I would believe HIS translation of HIS words rather than someone else's translation.
If I say something, then obviously I understand better than anyone what I mean and what I am trying to say. Makes sense, doesnt it?

That does not mean im getting emotional or im a woman hater or that i condone rape. It simply means that I am trying to enlighten the emotional about the truth of the situation. Mufti did not insult women, he did not condone rape, he did not support the muslim rapists. He was misinterpreted......so get over it and move on. No harm done.

To answer you Diseria. Taking everything literally leads to lot of troubles. If you read Quran or any other religious text, they are filled with analogies or metaphors. Obviouosly they should not be taken literally. They should be understood.

If someone has a question about any text in the Quran that disturbs them or gives them doubts, I would be happy to discuss it with them.

Originally posted by Remirah
It's simple, people with such narrow minded and pure excuses for being human need to be rounded up and shot. Plain and simple, kill him. ..

Wait, if that was what we wanted we could just let the extremists of the world go ahead on schedule.

what do you think would be solved by killing the guy? other than (then quite justified) outrage, i don't see where this would lead, this issue is on track for escalation already, there is imho, no need to pour oil into the fire.

I could understand killing the rapists, though.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Riley & Resistancia when you make comments that all women are at risk of rape,

Thats strange.. I don't seem to recall either of us making such statements. Perhaps you should read what we actually say instead of using your imagination.

that is an emotionally charged statement and can only be directed towards men.

1. Some women can and do rape and some men can rape other men.
2. Emotionally charged.. opposed to the mufti's comments..? Even if I did say it.. I notice you completely exuse the muft's comments as 'free speach' yet accuse ours of being 'emotionally charged." Seems a little inconsistant to me.

Making such comments does nothing but makes a man feel insulted

Opposed to the mufti's comments which you defend?

and I personaly find it offensive to be thought of as a potential rapist.

1. I never said you were a potential rapist.. I said I suspected you share the mufti's views. I have not accused him of being a rapist.. only justifying it from other men.
2. I got offended when you called me a racist.. what can I say? I don't really care.

All men are not rapists,

I know.. where did I say this again? :shk:

statistics prove that

They also prove that 1 in 4 women get raped in their lifetimes.. if you want to worry about all men being portrayed as potential rapists.. perhaps you should take that up with the mufti who actually made such claims instead of using us as his scapegoats.

You both seem to have convinced yourselves that this Mufti has been behind the organised rape of women.

In fact I'm not sure where Resistancia stands on that theory.. but I haven't convinced myself of that.. the evidence did. Perhaps you should look at it instead of blatently ignoring it.
Why is it you haven't even mentioned the pack rapists and their connections to the mufti and Sheikh? Seems you are avoiding it like the plague.

If that is so why have the authorities not arrested him for same.

Perhaps they only became aware he was making such speaches recently.. for all I know they may be looking into it. The sheik.. I believe he's actually done some time but I'm not sure what for.

The problem with people of such attitudes is that if you seek to shut them up

Incorrect. He should have respect for how customs and ideals and shut himself up.. and it seems, after copping so much flack he finnally found some[even if just pretend].. though he still compared women to pearls and other decoratable objects so it's not exactly a complete backflip.

that does not solve the problem, people of such extreme views do not go away.

They do if enough pressure is put on them. doubt the US still has pro slavery sermons in churches anymore. Societies change.

What is needed with such people is dialogue to find out why they think that way.

Good idea.. but as yet no muslims here have offered a reason why they have such views.. except to say 'thats not true Islam.'

One must seek to educate such people and to change their views, failure to do so does not remove the problem.

He's being educated.

My interpretation of free speech is that if this man had not been allowed to say what he did then nobody would be aware of what he was doing.

Yet when I express my right to speak you called me names and have now said I'm 'emotionally charged' as though I'm suppose to curb it..

Its better to hear whats somebody is saying rather than having them plotting away unheard somewhere.

I agree.. and he was heared. People now officially know that such attitudes are not welcome in our county.

You say you want to fight misogyny, how do you fight if you cannot hear.

Heared him loud and clear.