North Korea says talks or "a nuclear missile"

Mod should remove above 2 posts I think


That being said...I think we all just need to wait and see with respect to NK, maybe the Bush administration is actually doing one thing right this time, letting NK cry itself to sleep.

[edit on 11-10-2006 by alphabetaone]

ok, another question...

the north koreans keep saying that "oh if the US doesnt talk to us we're going to do (insert insane action of the day here)"

so, some of you propose that we simply let china and the other asian countries handle this on their own and the US and UN should just walk away.

how's that going to solve the problem if the NK's keep saying that without us talking to them directly that htey are gonna misbehave again?

hope china can get them to behave? uhhh didnt china tell them NOT to test a nuke?


yeah, we see how much influence bejing has on kimmy these days.

Let's say we do talk to them. What could possibly come from it. They will ask for stuff and promise to stop building nukes then renege like before. There is no negotiating with this guy. The one thing you don't want to do is give him what he wants. He knows full well what he needs to do to get back into the graces of the world community.

Originally posted by Damocles
ok, another question...

the north koreans keep saying that "oh if the US doesnt talk to us we're going to do (insert insane action of the day here)"

so, some of you propose that we simply let china and the other asian countries handle this on their own and the US and UN should just walk away.

how's that going to solve the problem if the NK's keep saying that without us talking to them directly that htey are gonna misbehave again?

hope china can get them to behave? uhhh didnt china tell them NOT to test a nuke?


yeah, we see how much influence bejing has on kimmy these days.

Let me answer your question with a question....And if we do nothing at all? But let China, the UN, South Korea, and Japan handle their part of the world?

So WHAT if North Korea misbehaves again? What does the US have to lose by doing nothing but waiting out the storm?...the answer is nothing. What does the US have to lose by going in with guns a blazin'? Everything

If North Korea pushes China too hard, China will NOT let them get away with it...North Korea will NOT obliterate Seoul or any part of South Korea...why? Because they dont want to have to clean up the aftermath, they DO want the valuable resources there and certainly wouldnt obtain them if they turn it to glass and make it uninhabitable, and they DONT want to be financially responsible for all of the remaining South Korean citizens.

Beijing knows what they're doing with their little brother, and knows how to handle them...we, clearly, do not.


This is all, just my opinion, of course.


AB1

posted by alpabetone
What does the US have to lose by doing nothing but waiting out the storm?...the answer is nothing.

The answer may be 'everything'. It only take's one EMP to wreck a huge part of our already stressed power grid. Followed by a domino effect of food, transportation, and energy collapse's that would cripple us for month's to year's. Russia, China, and North Korea know this!

Russia and China wouldn't do it for obvious reason's, that's why they keep a gun powder and cat eatin' pitbull in NK, for the nasty job's.

Originally posted by HimWhoHathAnEar

The answer may be 'everything'. It only take's one EMP to wreck a huge part of our already stressed power grid. Followed by a domino effect of food, transportation, and energy collapse's that would cripple us for month's to year's. Russia, China, and North Korea know this!

Russia and China wouldn't do it for obvious reason's, that's why they keep a gun powder and cat eatin' pitbull in NK, for the nasty job's.

The only problem with this, would be, for that to happen, that would mean SOMEONE (read: China or Russia) would have to provide North Korea with a delivery system to actually AFFECT an EMP over the most populated of areas, as WELL as the technology to detonate a device with enough yield to make a difference. I mean, lets face it... the T-Dong 2 and a 550 Ton nuke explosion in the atmosphere above Alaska MAY cause some static on my transistor radio for about 9 to 10 seconds, but Im quite sure I can live with that.


AB1

posted by alphabetone
I mean, lets face it... the T-Dong 2 and a 550 Ton nuke explosion in the atmosphere above Alaska MAY cause some static on my transistor radio for about 9 to 10 seconds, but Im quite sure I can live with that.

While we all wish that NK would remain locked in a technological time warp, where they never make anymore advancement's, it ain't gonna happen! That is precisely the point of what they've been doing, 'TESTING'!

By your methodology, I'll be sitting by my woodstove eating raccoon, saying to myself 'I sure wish that computer worked', so I could say 'I told ya so to AB1'! The time for action is BEFORE EMP become's a reality. The very point of the Report to Congress on EMP!

And China and/or Russia may very well give them the necessary equipment. I don't know though, that could be a Conspiracy Theory! Shhhhhh.....

A Major superpower like the US isnt going to be bullied into one on one talks with anyone. This nut has made his bed and he will die in it one way or another. I prefer to see the Chinese take over this situation inside the country while the US and its allies blockade NK from anything other than foodstuffs allowed to enter AND exit it. China is the key here guys. If they want to be a major player in the world then its time to step up and show the world they are capable of handling their own puppet state.
Lets not worry about the NK's delivering a nuclear weapon to American soil. Its cartoonish at best. Dont you think we know where everything is over there. We arent the most sophisticated military country in the world for nothing.
Capitulating to one on one talks is to agree that NK is our equal. They are NOT!

Originally posted by Damocles
ok, another question...

the north koreans keep saying that "oh if the US doesnt talk to us we're going to do (insert insane action of the day here)"

so, some of you propose that we simply let china and the other asian countries handle this on their own and the US and UN should just walk away.

how's that going to solve the problem if the NK's keep saying that without us talking to them directly that htey are gonna misbehave again?

hope china can get them to behave? uhhh didnt china tell them NOT to test a nuke?


yeah, we see how much influence bejing has on kimmy these days.

So what though? So what if he wants to turn his land into a nuke sess pool? Ultimately the only people it hurts are his neighbours, if they aren't willing to do anything about it(For whatever reason) how does that have anything to do with the west/UN?

In either case Kimmie becomes a threat to Russia and China long before he becomes a threat to the West....He is, and was, a nonissue. This is political crap(Not the test, just the focus) so we don't worry about Foley so much, which might have been a leak so we don't worry about Bush taking away America's freedom....

It is an illusion, to cover an illusion, to hide a truth.

AB1,

i can totally see your point of view, but if the us does nothing we do have something to risk. the north koreans are NOT threatening china...they are threatening us.

ok, so their current nuke technology has their bombs the size of small cars. ok, cant load it into a missile, a plane wouldnt make it to the US...ok load it on a sub...so a navy destroyer stops it on the surface...the wont make it to a harbor.

would losing a destroyer be any less an act of war than losing LA?

an out there scenario ill admit freely.

my only point is that they ARE pointing us out singly as the ones they feel the need to deal with so for us to ignore them may be a mistake. we shouldnt bury our heads in the sand and hope bejing can handle it for us.

we need to be part of the 6 party talks as much as anyone else in that group.


but so does north korea.

we've said all along we'll talk to NK, but we want the other countries there also. why is that such a challenge to NK? because its not what kimmy wants and kimmy feels that what he wants he should get.

well, sometimes you need to spank your toddler too so they dont grow up thinking thats how the world works, it isnt.

Originally posted by HimWhoHathAnEar
While we all wish that NK would remain locked in a technological time warp, where they never make anymore advancement's, it ain't gonna happen! That is precisely the point of what they've been doing, 'TESTING'!

By your methodology, I'll be sitting by my woodstove eating raccoon, saying to myself 'I sure wish that computer worked', so I could say 'I told ya so to AB1'! The time for action is BEFORE EMP become's a reality. The very point of the Report to Congress on EMP!

And China and/or Russia may very well give them the necessary equipment. I don't know though, that could be a Conspiracy Theory! Shhhhhh.....

- DO you not think this arguement is based in fear? What you are essentially saying is "If we don't act now, he may in some future time do something with something, someone may give him"?? That is nonsensical for everyone can do things in time - but we don't charge them based on what they may do at a later date, we charge them for what they did do - and what Kimmie did was legal and through the proper channels.

By the same reasoning, Russia and CHina both have full rights to blast the US right off the map because America has shown much more disregard for international law and human-rights(At least internationally recently) than possibly any other nation in history. America hasn't threaten either of them yet - but by your methodology since America might in the future, it must be killed today..Sounds resonable doesn't it?

To change the world, you must first change yourself. You must be the change you wish to see in the world. - Ghandi

Originally posted by Damocles

my only point is that they ARE pointing us out singly as the ones they feel the need to deal with so for us to ignore them may be a mistake. we shouldnt bury our heads in the sand and hope bejing can handle it for us.

we need to be part of the 6 party talks as much as anyone else in that group.


but so does north korea.

we've said all along we'll talk to NK, but we want the other countries there also. why is that such a challenge to NK? because its not what kimmy wants and kimmy feels that what he wants he should get.

well, sometimes you need to spank your toddler too so they dont grow up thinking thats how the world works, it isnt.

Actually I agree with this more than you think...I believe, though, the only point we may disagree on would be at what point it is that the "toddler" needs to be spanked..Im not certain yet that anything but "crying themself to sleep" is whats in order at THIS moment.

But, I think at some moment (that invariably always comes) the spanking will be necessary...my posture on that would be, if after they've cried themself to sleep, and awake wanting to escalate their cause, THEN spank them... ie, let THEM be the bad guys, let THEM make the first move...it's just time for the USA to stop looking like the world police and the bad guy, we've done enough of that...instead let's look like "the victim" if you will, seduced into a position where we had no other choice by a TRULY radical regime.


AB1

By the same reasoning, Russia and CHina both have full rights to blast the US right off the map because America has shown much more disregard for international law and human-rights(At least internationally recently) than possibly any other nation in history.

And what history book were you reading? lol

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor

By the same reasoning, Russia and CHina both have full rights to blast the US right off the map because America has shown much more disregard for international law and human-rights(At least internationally recently) than possibly any other nation in history.

And what history book were you reading? lol

How many people in those illegal prisons are there now? Do you know? Does anyone? How many people have had their rights taken away from them? How many innocent lives have been lost over known lies?

I guess that best thing to answer is - which history have you been ignoring in the last 4 years?

well ab1 i think we may agree more than we realize but we're both kinda getting hooked by analogies. maybe me using the term "spanked" was inappropriate for the point i was trying to make.

so, ill summarize my views

i think NK with a nuke is bad. bad for everyone. i think the US has to be part of the 6 party talks as we have allies that could be threatened by NK getting silly, but i dont think we need to take the lead role in ANY talks with NK. im not so sure it should be the US drafting resolutions at the security council.

at what point should they be spanked...again depends on the interpretation of the analogy. by spanked i guess i meant either reigned in by china or things like sanctions/blockade.

theres a difference, HUGE difference between a spanking and a beating and that applies to toddlers and countries alike.

i mean a denouncment of their actions is a slap on the wrist. sanctions, harsh ones, are a spanking.

if the silly sob pulls the trigger on any country, then its time for a beat down. but again, if they dont attack the US directly, then i think we should be in a support role with a multinational force. if they attack japan or SK, let them take the lead and we'll get thier backs. if they attack us directly, then im not sure anyone would disagree with throwing them a beating.

i was in the army 12 years, i wanna see this go to a hot war less than anyone. my wife is still in the army and her job would guarantee her involvment in anything hot over there. so i have a vested interest in this being worked out at the table rather than the battlefield.

rofl or we could just let kimmy and W duke it out in a UFC style octagon

Originally posted by Damocles

rofl or we could just let kimmy and W duke it out in a UFC style octagon

HA HA HA.. I just had the greatest flashback. We could get Frankie envolved.

First bout - Reagen - Yeltsin(?)
Bout 1 - Video from youtube

Bout two ? ? ?

Originally posted by Waiting2awake
How many people in those illegal prisons are there now? Do you know? Does anyone? How many people have had their rights taken away from them? How many innocent lives have been lost over known lies?

I guess that best thing to answer is - which history have you been ignoring in the last 4 years?

So how many of those above questions apply to North Korea? How many apply to the rest of the world? And which history have you ignored for the last 40 years? 400 years?

If this is the logic you use to condone war with a country, you should be calling for the eradication of the planet.

Politicians are dirty, and they use their position to play dirty games, nobody's debating that, W2A. But you seem to think that bringing up dirt from the past somehow makes a difference here.

All the history in the world doesn't change the fact that Kim is either crazy, or a megalomaniac, or both, and has nuclear materials with nuclear ambitions, and is beating the little red button with his face.

Originally posted by Astygia

Politicians are dirty, and they use their position to play dirty games, nobody's debating that, W2A. But you seem to think that bringing up dirt from the past somehow makes a difference here.

which brings me to an off topic question so ill apologize now, if this comment creates too many off topic comments ill gladly start a new thread but i think its more food for thought then fodder for discussion.

why do we keep electing politicians? what happened to govt of the people BY[/B] the people? lets start electing bob from down the street or jenny who works at the deli. politicians arent people btw rofl

Agreed, Damocles. Politicians may begin their career being "for the people", but there comes a point when they need "favors" from influential individuals and/or organizations, at which time they've fallen into the trap.

There's too much money in politics; big business will never let the "riff-raff", that's you, me, all the normal people that aren't independantly wealthy, become influential in politics.

yeah i know but i can dream.

yoru statements do lend some unintentional credibility to another thread im considering starting on why the coming "police state" likely will never happen.

to summarize though, an economy in a police state is bad as workers are less motivated to work. this means that the "powerful" are less powerful as money sadly does=power. dont believe me? name a very poor and VERY powerful person in the last 50 years. longer?

anyway back on topic, north korea with nukes is bad. ice cream however...is good