Sins...

I am a bit confused here so I would like to ask the knowledgable ones for a clarification.
It is about the christian version of sin and forgivness of sins.
I have found on several christian sites several different explanations of whos sins are forgiven.
One site says that only those who accept Christ as their saviour (aka Christians) will be forgiven, their sins washed away. But on another site it says that Jesus is savior of all mankind, christians and non-christians. So, whats the truth?

There are as many different views on this, as there are sects of Christianity...

However, if you go to the source, i.e. the Bible, you'll see that only those who accept Christ as their savior will have their sins forgiven (according to the book, that is).

Some sects though, in order to try and further the "kind and loving God" idea...are a little more open-minded about it...

I have found on several christian sites several different explanations of whos sins are forgiven.
One site says that only those who accept Christ as their saviour (aka Christians) will be forgiven, their sins washed away. But on another site it says that Jesus is savior of all mankind, christians and non-christians. So, whats the truth?

Very good question, and what is sin, i mean, God said there are none Righteous and that if anyone says they have no sin they are liars, which is also a sin so h..e.. double hockey sticks if i know :bnghd: heh

I don't believe God condemns us for being mere mortals anyways, we're not perfect nor shall we ever be, it really is a mute point if you ask me. :bash:

How about those who accept Christ at a young age (about 13 - 17) then later learn about other religions and turn to one of them for spirituality sake? Are they saved by their earlier acceptance, or is that acceptance absolved????

As far as sin, according to the "good book" death is the penalty for sin. Since everyone dies, I would suggest that these high and mighty priests, pastors and other clergy are sinning as much as those of the faith, which begs the question who are they trying to kid??? If they are leading you in your faith, yet, they themselves are suffering the penalty for something they should not do, it is the blind leading the blind.

Originally posted by paperclip
I have found on several christian sites several different explanations of whos sins are forgiven.
One site says that only those who accept Christ as their saviour (aka Christians) will be forgiven, their sins washed away. But on another site it says that Jesus is savior of all mankind, christians and non-christians. So, whats the truth?

As a Christian....I believe that Jesus already died for my sins and all I have to do is be "TRUELY SORRY" for any sins I commit here on Earth and I get my own key to the pearly gates.

I believe that you must acknowledge your sin,

You must ask for forgiveness !!!

believe me, I have, and will continue to do it...

as I am only flesh and blood, not perfect, I am constantly needing forgiveness...

In the Mystery of Penance,
or rather of Absolution,
God the Holy Spirit forgives man his new sins done after Baptism.
Thereby the man becomes again clean before his God.
A sinner travels away from his God into a foreign land and becomes a companion of swine,
throwing his pearl - his soul - to the swine.
Sin being repented of,
confessed and forgiven,
man gets the liberty to enter again the house of his Father.
The parable of the Prodigal Son explains clearly the origin and nature of sin, of true repentance, of confession and absolution (Luke xv, 11ff).

The Lord Jesus ordered and instituted this Mystery through His words and actions (Luke vii, 47; Matt xviii, 18).
The Apostles understood their Master and followed faithfully His example and His commandment (I John i, 8-10; Acts iii, 19; xix, 18).

Originally posted by Venus

Originally posted by paperclip
I have found on several christian sites several different explanations of whos sins are forgiven.
One site says that only those who accept Christ as their saviour (aka Christians) will be forgiven, their sins washed away. But on another site it says that Jesus is savior of all mankind, christians and non-christians. So, whats the truth?

As a Christian....I believe that Jesus already died for my sins and all I have to do is be "TRUELY SORRY" for any sins I commit here on Earth and I get my own key to the pearly gates.

Ahhh...yes. You are one of those Christians. You follow that your believes get you into Heaven. You don't have to live a good life, you just have to believe that you should. As long as you believe Jesus died for your sins you can do whatever the hell else you want.

A scenario for you:

Two men, one is a Buddhist who lives in China. He medidates everyday, he regularily helps out the poor, he has never hurt anybody in his life. He is good to his family and friends. He doesn't lead a life based upon obtaining material wealth. He leads what most people would consider a good life.

The other man is a Christian who believes in Jesus. He lies and steals. He regularily cheats on his wife. He drinks too much and causes fights down at the bar. He is a racist and hates everybody but people just like him. He is what most people would call a horrible human being.

So which one gets in to heaven. Well most Christians would say that the second man does. Because he accepted Jesus and believes Jesus died for his sins. The first man turned a blind eye to Jesus and despite his good life will spend eternity burning in hell.

Yup...this is a religion I want no part of.

by St John Maximovich
SHORTLY AFTER THE DOCTRINE of Christ began to be propagated among the Gentiles, the followers of Christ in Antioch began to be called Christians (Acts XI:26).

The word "Christian" indicated that those who bore this name belonged to Christ-belonged in the sense of devotion to Christ and his Doctrine.
From Antioch the name of Christian was spread everywhere.

The followers of Christ gladly called themselves by the name of their beloved Teacher and Lord;
and the enemies of Christ called His followers Christians by carrying over to them the ill-will and hatred which they breathed against Christ.

However, quite soon there appeared people who,
while calling themselves Christians,
were not of Christ in spirit.
Of them Christ had spoken earlier: Not everyone that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven (St. Matt. VII:5).
Christ prophesied also that many would pass themselves off for Christ Himself: Many shall come in my name, sayings I am Christ (Matt. XXIV:5).
The Apostles in their epistles indicated that false bearers of the name of Christ had appeared already in their time: as ye have heard that Antichrist shall come, even now there are many antichrists (I John II:19).

They indicated that those who stepped away from the doctrine of Christ should not be considered their own: They went out from us but were not of us (I John II:19)" Warning against quarrels and disagreements in minor matters (I Cor. I:10-14),
at the same time the Apostles strictly commanded their disciples to shun those who do not bring the true doctrine (II John I:10).
The Lord, through the Revelation given to the Apostle John the Theologian, sternly accused those who, calling themselves faithful, did not act in accordance with their name; for in such a case it would be false for them.

Of what use was it of old to call oneself a Jew, an Old Testament follower of the true faith, if one was not such in actuality?
Such the Holy Scripture calls the synagogue of Satan (Apocalypse II:9).

In the same way a Christian in the strict sense is he only who confesses the true doctrine of Christ and lives in accordance with it.
The designation of a Christian consists in glorifying the Heavenly Father by one's life.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven (St. Matt. V:16).
But true glorification of God is possible only if one rightly believes and expresses his right belief in words and deeds.

Here's something to think about, God Created Sin, so why the hell would he condemn us, Imperfect as we are, for something he created and knew full well we'd fail at?

duh

Originally posted by Sapphire
Here's something to think about, God Created Sin, so why the hell would he condemn us, Imperfect as we are, for something he created and knew full well we'd fail at?

duh

God never created sin. He created beings with free will. We could choose to obey or disobey God. We chose to do it our way, not Gods way. That is what sin is, rebellion, non-conformity to Gods ways. Sin wasn't created it was just a result of our free will. We can choose not to lie or steal, but we do it anyway, God didn't make us sin, we chose to.

Originally posted by StationsCreation

Originally posted by Sapphire
Here's something to think about, God Created Sin, so why the hell would he condemn us, Imperfect as we are, for something he created and knew full well we'd fail at?

duh

God never created sin. He created beings with free will. We could choose to obey or disobey God. We chose to do it our way, not Gods way. That is what sin is, rebellion, non-conformity to Gods ways. Sin wasn't created it was just a result of our free will. We can choose not to lie or steal, but we do it anyway, God didn't make us sin, we chose to.

God did create sin. He created us. He created the ability for us to sin. He also created up and down. Cool isn't it He created us knowing we would sin. Why would a Perfect God want to do that? Hmmm doesn't make sense does it, well not to those who really think about it rationally.

Did Sin Create Itself?

[Edited on 3-12-2003 by Sapphire]

Sins are temptations of flesh. All our sins have something to do with material world. We have a soul, which is supposed to be strenghtened through spirituality so it is easier for us to resist the temptations of flesh. Why did God create us that way? I doubt that anyone has an answer to that.

What I don't understand is that the forgiveness of sins in this world has little to do with acceptance of Christ, it has more to do with going to church, confess your sins, repent. 1,2 billion Muslims accept Christ but the Church is still after those people because they do not accept them, the Church, and the nicene creed, not because they do not accept Christ.

What happens to people who live a really righteous life but are not Christians? They do follow all the rules of faith, the example of Christ etc, etc, but do not belong to any man-made Church?

Helen posted:
"In the same way a Christian in the strict sense is he only who confesses the true doctrine of Christ and lives in accordance with it.
The designation of a Christian consists in glorifying the Heavenly Father by one's life.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven (St. Matt. V:16).
But true glorification of God is possible only if one rightly believes and expresses his right belief in words and deeds."

Basicaly it means do good deeds and believe in God, that is the path of Christ. If you do that, regardless to which denomination you belong, are your sins forgiven then?

Is forgivness about accepting Christ as a person, regardless of what you have done, or is it about accepting the doctrine of Christ, his Path (regardless of how we label this path) through which we become closer to him and our sins are forgiven?

hmmmm this post is very confusing, I know lol, so are all philosophical thoughts I guess...

This is from ATS and gives some of the definitions of words like "sin", Adam, etc. The whole post by Anunda is here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
The definitions and etymology (origin of the word) and the epistemology (origin of the philosophy) can be confirmed in any good Lexicon, Bible Commentary, and on line in many of the numerous dictionaries - including the official Catholic Encyclopaedia .. which, of course, is discouraged reading.

God roots in the Sanskrit and Aramaic meaning "to sacrifice or to be a sacrifice to" - Saxon Gott from 1380 ..

Adam from Hb "adamah" literally meaning "clay"

Sin from the Aramaic feminine principle and Moon Goddess, as a noun it is used to refer to "female" or Woman"

Original Sin born of Woman (or from the feminine)

Virgin a reference to the astrological constellation of Virgo, used by the ancients as a definition of "Spring" or "new beginnings" or "fertility".

In many cultures, the beginning of their calendar year Christ from the Greek "Christos" - or King of Heaven .. a latter term used to describe the sun ..

Baptism the original process used by the ancient midwives to wash the detritus of the placenta and after-birth products from the new-born infant - a practice found in the same records that describe the birth process from "woman"

As a few here have stated, sin is the result of ''quote//paperclip..Sins are temptations of flesh. All our sins have something to do with material world. We have a soul, which is supposed to be strenghtened through spirituality so it is easier for us to resist the temptations of flesh.

And so "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman... Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing" (John 15:1, 4-5).

And, in accordance with the words of the Savior, "joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance" (Luke 15:7).

Our world is like a battlefield, and maybe it is in the center of the struggle in which God and Satan fight for each and every human soul.
Indeed, the front line of this war goes far beyond the boundaries of our universe, and the Heavenly Church takes very vigorous action in the struggle with the dragon and its servants. We are able to watch only a minor portion of this arduous, tense spiritual war.

In order to see this battle in a wider scale, it should be looked at through the eyes of the Holy Visionary, the Apostle John the Theologian, the writer of the Book of Revelation.

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places" (Ephesians 6:12).

The devil hates the good and persecutes those trying to set themselves free of his power.
God permits devil to tempt people for their own benefit, as struggle with temptations helps man improve and strengthen spiritually. An ancient thinker was right, saying, "Without the devil and temptations, there would have been no saints."

Although the devil out of malice often sets off physical persecution of the faithful, it needs to be clearly understood and remembered that he can seize and ruin a man only through sin!
Mean and experienced psychologist, the devil artfully adjusts his tactics of temptation to individual weaknesses of the man he wants to incline to sin.
So he tempts lascivious people primarily with fleshly sins; people attached to material goods - with love of money; vainglorious people - with pride; pusillanimous and cowardly - with fear of persecutions, and so on. When the devil succeeds to incline a man to sin, then the devil wins; when a man repulses the temptation, then the man is the winner.
Our entire life is woven out of episodic wins and losses. The summary will be made at the end of a man's life.

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev. 12:1-17).

The Woman clothed with the Sun is the Church. The moon, stars and the sun that decorate Her are to symbolize Her spiritual beauty and glory. Travails and pains of childbirth represent the austerities of Christians in the way of their spiritual rebirth.
The red dragon is the devil with his servants. Of course, a few details of this description are unclear to us, but the sense and the result of spiritual warfare are obvious.
The dragon proved to be powerless to hurt the Woman and destroy her children. The Woman's two wings can be perceived as fasting and prayer, which spiritually enrich a man and take one nearer to God.
The flood that the dragon cast out after the Woman can be viewed as temptations. The dragon's allurements were swallowed up by the earth, which some Church Fathers understand as humbleness because no temptation can attract a humble man, committed and fully obedient to God.
It is noteworthy that the faithful suffered no harm from the dragon and even overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, by receiving the Body and Blood of Christ.
The flight into the wilderness can be understood both literally and figuratively � when the faithful voluntarily and completely separate themselves from the sinful society and its vanity, in order to submerge entirely in spiritual life.
Mentioning of Archangel Michael and other heavenly hosts that overthrew the dragon is obviously related to the time preceding the creation of our tangible universe, when the angels, who were faithful to God, expelled Lucifer's rebellious angels from the Paradise (it was the first revolution).

So it is doubtless that the vision of the Woman is a combination of events from different epochs. It also contains elements from the life of the Holy Virgin: birth of Christ (the Firstborn of the Church), and the flight to Egypt, � and persecution of Christians in various periods.

In other apocalyptic visions, the Holy Apostle John reiterates the description of persecutions of the faithful but from a different perspective that will be discussed later. In Chapters 19 and 20 of Revelation, the Apostle John depicted the conclusive defeat of antichrist, false prophet and the ancient dragon, which would be thrown into the lake of fire � the place of their never-ending torture..
more from here....
www.orthodoxphotos.com...

Originally posted by elevatedone
I believe that you must acknowledge your sin,

You must ask for forgiveness !!!

believe me, I have, and will continue to do it...

as I am only flesh and blood, not perfect, I am constantly needing forgiveness...

Well, that is quite true!

You cant just assume that just because you are a Christian you can go on sinning and all will be forgiven!
You have to ask for forgiveness!

"For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake" (Philippians 1:29)

The Holy Scripture interprets the life's tests and sufferings as an opportunity of taking effort to achieve the supreme reward in Heaven. For example, in the Epistle of the Apostle Peter we read, "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12).

www.orthodoxphotos.com...

"Hmmm doesn't make sense does it, well not to those who really think about it rationally."

Sapphire I hope you weren't referring to me

God could have forced perfect behaviour upon the human race in the Garden of Eden, but to do so would have been to create robots. God's desire was to see love magnified in His creation, and love would be impossible for us without the freedom of choice.

When you said God created sin, it just sounded like you meant God intended for sin to be apart of His creation. So your right when you say the potential was there, but I guess God would have preferred us to serve and love Him than to choose sin and serve self. But that was the choice he gave us.

I can see where you�re coming from though.

Exactly!
What stations said....quote///God could have forced perfect behaviour upon the human race in the Garden of Eden, but to do so would have been to create robots. God's desire was to see love magnified in His creation, and love would be impossible for us without the freedom of choice.
yes, God then would have made A.I (Artificial Intelligence) out of us and that would defy His .....made in the image of God....
I would rather serve God, then serve Satan.........and that is how it will end....
You choose what you want in this life!
In the end...it's your choice based on your own free will ....Freedom of choice as many say!
helen......

Originally posted by StationsCreation
"Hmmm doesn't make sense does it, well not to those who really think about it rationally."

Sapphire I hope you weren't referring to me

~ No i wasn't referring to you in particular, but in general terms

God could have forced perfect behaviour upon the human race in the Garden of Eden, but to do so would have been to create robots. God's desire was to see love magnified in His creation, and love would be impossible for us without the freedom of choice.

I don't mean to minimize your words, so please bear with me. This is how i believe it to be. It began with a story, a story about Creation. Whether or not it actually occured that way i'll never know. There is a fine line between freedom of choice. If God is giving us the choice for example, to choose him over hell, what kind of choice is that? Im sorry but it sounds more like black mail than Unconditional Love to me. Love has no Conditions.
When you said God created sin, it just sounded like you meant God intended for sin to be apart of His creation. So your right when you say the potential was there, but I guess God would have preferred us to serve and love Him than to choose sin and serve self. But that was the choice he gave us.
God created all things, even sin. Cause and Effect. I believe God loves us all, and sin is merely a biproduct of our Humaness. Without flaws we could not learn and grow and experience life to it's fullest. If we were 'robots' and always perfect, we would be most miserable. I'm happy i went thru a lot of rough times in my life because i can help others who are going thru that now in theirs. Wisdom and Knowlege come from Experience.

I can see where you�re coming from though.
And i you, to an extent of course

[Edited on 4-12-2003 by Sapphire]

Sapphire I found this explanation, I thought it was quite good.

***
21. How can a loving God condemn people to eternal torment in hell for refusing to submit to His authority? That God would punish to such an incredible degree seems utterly contrary to our notion of love.

First, we need to understand that God does not force Himself on anyone. Those individuals who end up in hell are those who clearly and deliberately pushed aside the influence of God's Spirit during their lifetime. Sartre wrote that the gates of hell are locked from the inside. In accord with their persistent choice, God withdrew His Spirit.

The prophet Jeremiah warns us that without the restraint of God's Spirit, the human heart will express unimaginable evil. Therefore, to keep the inhabitants of hell from making things even worse there, God imposes torment.

John, in Revelation, points out that for those who have done much evil on earth and are capable of wreaking more atrocity upon their fellows in hell, God imposes more torment. Upon those who have lived a seemingly decent life, God imposes less torment. God expresses His love to those in hell by giving each one just enough torment to keep hell from becoming a worse place than it must be already, without the presence of Him in whom all goodness and love reside.
[Taken from Sword & Spirit .com]
***

" If God is giving us the choice for example, to choose him over hell, what kind of choice is that? Im sorry but it sounds more like black mail than Unconditional Love to me. Love has no Conditions." - Sapphire

Say these parents have a rebellous son who constantly disobeys them and is into drugs and crime. The parents love him unconditionaly, and it pains them terribly to see him like this. They love him so much even though he shows them no respect. After many attempts by the parents to steer this young lad in the right direction with love, the young man rejects their guidance and decides to leave home and move in with his criminal friends.
Now this young mans parents tried to give him guidance into life, but he chose to go his way.
If the parents had locked him up in their house so he couldn't go with his criminal friends, they would not be showing love because they are keeping him against his will, even though they know this is better for him.
They loved him unconditionally, so they gave him what he wanted.

This analogy is kind of how I see it, in relation to God.