Stuart Middle School teacher burns U.S. flags in class

Originally posted by WestPoint23
displaying the flag IMO is not demeaning or disrespectful.

And burning the flag, IMO is not demeaning or disrespectful.

See how that works?

A Stuart Middle School teacher has been removed from the classroom after he burned two American flags in class during a lesson on freedom of speech, Jefferson County Public Schools officials said.

Well they worked their way into our colleges and high schools now, might as well start indoctrinating in the grade schools.

I personally am against flag burining and almost any ban against it. We are free but why take such overly suggestive measures on children? This is one of those issues that shows just how extreme you are.

[edit on 23-8-2006 by notbuynit]

[edit on 23-8-2006 by notbuynit]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
And burning the flag, IMO is not demeaning or disrespectful.

Fine if that's how you see it, but burning the flag in school like that as part of a curriculum was, and still is, inappropriate.

What if the teacher decided to burn a flag of Iran or another Islamic country or Israel or the UN? That would be an exercise in free speech as well correct? Would it be appropriate in a classroom of 7th graders? No it would not be appropriate and they might be charged with a hate crime in some places.

pavil - It's no different for any flag. It's all just a piece of cloth that is a symbol for something. It's not hurrting anyone.

Burning like it was part of the curricilum?

"Well class, today we're going to burn the american flag. jimmy, hand out the lighters."



Nah, he was trying to make a point. The topic was free speech, the ideawas to stimulate theyre minds, polarize them on one side of a topic or another. Is Flag burning free speech, is it too much? Is it disrespectful, is it not?

You cant bring that up without an example, and it was a beautiful example to present to them. To burn it infront of them, it makes them feel, one way or the other, because they were there to witness it.


He was doing his job, he was trying actually teach them. To stimulate theyre minds, to get theyre noses out of the bias textbooks and actually think about subjects themselves, and come to educated conclusions.

I applaud this teacher. Our school systems are filled up to the brim with nobody teachers who do nothing but drill quizes and standardize tests, making no effort to actually teach a child anything.

So burning any object in a classroom would be appropriate if it were to teach a lesson or elicit a response? Would a burning a cross or Koran or an effigy of someone be ok? Where is your line drawn in teaching middle school kids?

Oh no, West Point. I do see the difference. A flag pin or a patch on a cap is quite different from a model displaying the American flag in a disrespectful manner. First of all, she is being objectified, because she demonstrates that only "one type of person" could be patriotic (after all, I'd be hard pressed to see if you would have picked a Latina, Asian, Native American or a African-American woman to wear a bathing suit displaying the flag, would you? After all, blonde, blue-eyed women are not the only American citizens in this country you know).

The model reflects the fascist appropriation of the "homeland" that the POTUS lovingly talks about. After all, you can argue that there is an "American" ideal that is being displayed in your avatar. Comparing it to Germany under Hitler, he also had an "Aryan ideal" that he wanted to project. He too used blonde-haired, blue eyed women to display the notion of the perfect Nazi female. Do you not agree?

Are you not trying depict patriotism by using the "perfect" American female--especially by her wearing the insignia of the American flag?

Secondly, I truly do think that you are being disingenious to the argument by arguing against the rights of another American citizen to use the flag as he sees fit. After all, both he and you are both debasing the flag--depending on the different opinions of people in this thread.

Think about this way. Has Miss America (or Miss USA) ever wore a bathing suit with the American flag?

But to tell you the truth, it is seen in this light:

You are not teaching a civics lesson.

The teacher is teaching a civics lesson.

So, who is better? You, who is debasing women and displaying the flag in a degrading manner?

Or he? Actually teaching his students something about Free Speech?

Again, I ask, what exactly are they training our young officers to be? Women-haters who are supposed to be protecting the entire country, in truth they only want to protect the rights of nearly one-half of the population?

That's why things like Tailhook happen, by the way.

After all, your simple demonstration relates to the rest of us that you really are paying lip service to the rights of the Constitution. You are not being a staunch defender of it--not by word or deed if you have to pick and choose whose rights you have to defend.





[edit on 24-8-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by SIEGE
Rasobasi420 : Why don't YOU try this? You come up with something that's
comparable to burning flags in the classroom, okay? Everytime we give you an
example of something that could be taken to the extreme, as in this case of the
flag burning, you cry that it's "not the same"," it's not comparable". Well, why
don't you give us an example that is comparable?

Okay, If I stood in front of the class, and held a pen, and said that pen represented all joy and happiness in the world, then broke it in half, would that be too extreme?

Object... Pen=Flag
Symbolism...Freedom+America=Joy + Happiness
action... Break in half = Burn

result.... absolutely none in either case.

I think you people just like to complain because "you can".

Unless we do something that's against teh majority, then we'll be suspended and removed from our positions.

Like I said I’m not going to discuss the avatar or all the stuff being posted about it, U2U me and I’ll be more then happy to answer any questions you might have if you think my avatar is so interesting.

But I will say one thing Ceci, do you realize how much accusing you do? We’ve only crossed paths in the last month or so and you’ve already called me a racist and now woman hater? You should really watch what you say, especially to people you don’t know. :shk:

Originally posted by Ceci2006
You are not being a staunch defender of it--not by word or deed if you have to pick and choose whose rights you have to defend.

Huh? I implore you to read every post on this thread I made and tell me where I said the teacher didn’t have a right to burn the flag? I said it was inappropriate for him to burn it in the classroom, just like the other examples that I listed. You and others are purposely ignoring what I’m trying to say, there is a time and place for everything, some things are inappropriate to do under certain settings, it doesn’t mean you don’t have a right to do it, it just means that in some circumstances its inappropriate. Is that such a hard concept to understand?

[edit on 24-8-2006 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by WestPoint23
I said it was inappropriate for him to burn it in the classroom, just like the other examples that I listed. You and others are purposely ignoring what I’m trying to say, there is a time and place for everything, some things are inappropriate to do under certain settings, it doesn’t mean you don’t have a right to do it, it just means that in some circumstances its inappropriate. Is that such a hard concept to understand?

Inappropriate is a matter of opinion, though, do you disagree?

"Appropriate" is a judgement call. A subjective opinion.

In your opinion, (and some others') it was inappropriate for this teacher to burn the flag in the classroom. In my opinion (and some others') it was quite appropriate. It's a subjective situation. Just like certain music. In some people's opinion, rap is NOT music, but offensive statements by people who can't sing. Playing rap to 7th graders to get a point across or evoke emotion could be considered inappropriate. In others' opinions, it's the best music they've ever known. And they would consider it appropriate to play it in class as part of an assignnment.

Who's right?

Are you saying that burning the flag in this context is objectively inappropriate? In other words that we should ALL think it is inappropriate to burn a flag for 7th graders?

As regards your avatar, I'm not offended by it, just to be clear. And even if I were, I would strongly support your right to have it and I don't support those who are ragging on you for it.

But I'd really like your answer to my bolded question above. Thanks.



[edit on 24-8-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

WestPoint23

I wonder if those objecting to your avatar would object so loudly to someone wearing an America flag sewn onto the butt of their jeans, or as a bandana in a greasy head full of hair?

Somehow, I think the screams of "freedom of expression" would echo loudly in those cases.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
I think the safety argument is not only dishonest but cowardly. It's not a safety issue. I'd like to know how many chemistry teachers they've canned for demonstrating magnesium fires or something of that nature.

Poor argument. A chemistry instructor is experienced in conducting those demonstrations, and the chemistry lab is a more suitable place to hold them, safety wise. Can we assume the same for a social studies teacher and classroom? I doubt it.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Inappropriate is a matter of opinion, though, do you disagree?

No, however in this case the school, parents, and to an extent the students determine what aproprite conduct for the classroom is. But I also think that in some cases what inappropriate or what’s allowed is clear to see so I think at least for me this case just ties back to common sense. I fin it hard to believe this teacher honestly thought that it would be just peachy to burn the flag in class.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Are you saying that burning the flag in this context is objectively inappropriate? In other words that we should ALL think it is inappropriate to burn a flag for 7th graders?

I’m saying that a teacher should not burn the flag in class as part of a curriculum. It’s one of those standards of teaching that has to be kept, not everyone has to think its inappropriate but it should not be allowed in schools, at least public schools.

To be honest, it wasn't an accusation. It was an observation. And I think it is true. The act of burning a flag is very inappropriate (unless if follows the protocol of ettiquette) just as much as it is on your avatar.

Not only I have said so.

Unfortunately, you've called yourself a woman-hater and a racist. And if the shoe fits, don't let me stop you. I am not going to put words in your mouth because I didn't say such a thing.

I just questioned what in the world are they teaching our young officers at West Point? That is very valid if you can pick and choose whose Constitutional rights you defend.

And as I am exercising my Constitutional rights, I am saying that the avatar is debasing the flag and that the teacher was expressing himself by burning the flag. And since there is not a "flag burning amendment", he should not be penalized for teaching his students an important lesson.

I am also expressing myself by saying that the teacher was giving his students a very good civics lesson, as offensive as burning the flag is to some Americans.

And of course, I am saying (with my freedom of speech) you are not by having an avatar that flies in the face of patriotism because what it stands for. I further expressed my freedom of speech by saying that it objectifies women and gives the message that there is only one type of citizen in the United States. And it conveys that "others need not apply".

You may hate the things I say--especially when commenting on how that avatar is very degrading especially with the choice of model and bathing suit (not to mention how tacky it truly is).

But remember this: I did not ask you to remove the avatar. And I do not like it that the teacher is being raked over the coals for his decision to burn the flag.

You must agree that I have been very fair in upholding First Amendment rights for everyone. Even you.

Have you truly done the same? If not, I don't think you are truly worthy of your station to protect and uphold the Constitution. And you are letting your biases override the very fact that there are basic rights and tenets that should be protected for all of us. Not some of us.




[edit on 24-8-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
Unfortunately, you've called yourself a woman-hater and a racist. And if the shoe fits, don't let me stop you. I am not going to put words in your mouth because I didn't say such a thing.

Wow, you really think that will fly with me and other members who you have done the same too? I don’t want to go off topic but that is just simply amazing Ceci. Especially when one considers how little it takes for you to start drawing conclusions about others.

Originally posted by ceci2006
And as I am exercising my Constitutional rights, I am saying that the avatar is debasing the flag and that the teacher was expressing himself by burning the flag. And since there is not a "flag burning amendment", he should not be penalized for teaching his students an important lesson.

No there isn’t a flag burning amendment, nor have I said that him burning the flag, in class or wherever for that amtter was illegal, neither has the school, all they, and I have said is that it was inappropriate for that teacher to burn the flag in class. Something being inappropriate in a certain setting and being illegal altogether are two different things entirely. As such he can be penalized, if the school decides that his actions were improper teacher conduct in school. What they, or the state cannot do is say what he did was illegal and proceed to try him for it. See the difference?

[edit on 24-8-2006 by WestPoint23]

I see alot of misdirection taking place. And I'm responsible for some of it.

Rasobasi420 : I don't understand your example at all.

BH : Is everything extreme okay with you? Is it the "impact" you like?

Forestlady says : "They haven't been traumatized in "any" way and just because
they watched it being burned doesn't mean they are going to rush out and do the
same." Really, how do you KNOW that they weren't traumatized?
What if little Johnny liked it so much that he went home and lit the curtains on fire,
(just because he could) ? What if little Sally liked it so much that she went home
and began to burn all of the books in the house, ( just because it was her right to
freedom of expression, and she could) ?
As a former teacher, wouldn't that alarm you? Maybe not if you're into extreme
classroom lessons such as flag burning. So, if the trend continues with other
teachers, where does it stop? Do we bring in a bull and show the entire neutering
procedure in another class? ( don't tell me there won't be any traumatizing then).

Come on, is it a good idea to burn flags in the classroom? Of course not!
Not the place for it. Common sense dictates that you have to take into consideration the fact that something may go wrong. What if something
unfortunate had happened because of the fire?

Well, yes. You've spelled it out. But not once did you say that you would defend everyone's right to freedom of speech. That would be more relevant than this simple exercise of burning the teacher at the stake for what he has done in his classroom.

Well, Goody WestPoint, do you feel better now for making yourself clear?

Originally posted by WestPoint23
No, however in this case the school, parents, and to an extent the students determine what aproprite conduct for the classroom is.

Have the parents and students agreed that this was inappropriate? Not just some, but ALL?

Originally posted by WestPoint23
I’m saying that a teacher should not burn the flag in class as part of a curriculum.

Have you seen the curriculum? Do you know that it expressly forbids this?

It’s one of those standards of teaching that has to be kept, not everyone has to think its inappropriate but it should not be allowed in schools, at least public schools.

This is your opinion. When you use words like "should" and "inappropriate", those are judgement calls. Opinions.

I've not seen any indication that what this teacher did was illegal OR against school policy.

All I'm trying to get from you is the acknowledgement that this is your opinion and not based on any sort of law or rule. And that other people's opinions are just as valid as yours. Do the opinions of these people who are directly involved matter at all? Or are they just wrong?

From the original Source:

Ginny Adwell, Kelsey's mother and the school's PTA president, said some parents who called for Holden to be fired were "going a little bit overboard" and should remember that the teacher was trying to provoke thought.

Brent McKim, president of the Jefferson County Teachers Association, said Holden has "been teaching for many years, and has by all accounts a good teaching record. It was not a political statement and was meant to illustrate a controversial issue. To fire someone because of that would be inappropriate," he said. "It wasn't like he was taking one side or another."

Originally posted by SIEGE
BH : Is everything extreme okay with you? Is it the "impact" you like?

Not necessarily. Whether something is "extreme" or not isn't the measure I use to guage whether it's ok. I use law, the Constitution, logic.


[edit on 24-8-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

[edit on 24-8-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

Oh yeah, and by the way, I don't especially like BH's avatar, but I recognize BH's
right to freedom of expression. Does WESTPOINT23 have a right to freedom of
expression?

But now let's take it a little farther. Let's say that WESTPOINT23 wants to revise
their existing avatar, make it even more racy and sensual, okay? Where do we
draw the line? It's getting a little extreme isn't it? Like burning flags in a classroom?