A Growing Healthy Economy

I would give you a WATS, but I'm out...

So here

Best I can do for now.

I agree with you 100%. I just wonder if our nation can absorb a technological work force the size we are discussing. Even if the implementation were possible.

Semper

In reality, the problem is that there are too many people with degrees. The problem with the solution is time. It takes time for people to get degrees that are better then what we have. We need to start a new education system period is my suggestion.

Now I believe if the government is going to fund an education system it either do it all the way or not at all(Id prefer that for everything, but especially education). We need to start teaching harder stuff quicker. We can't slow down classes with kids who can't keep up. You need to personalize classes. First you teach the basics (reading, basic math, basic history so they understand there rights as people and such.) What we need to do is change the required classes. By middle school they should take a test. Based on that test (and their grades from the start), they will either be elligible to go into a special school (targets interests), or they will finish 8th grade at the regular school taking classes that will get them to survive in the world (how to spend money, how to cook, etc.). If they are in the special school for their special interests they take a test after graduating middle school going into highschool. This test basically says whether or not they have learned enough to go to the special highschool or they should switch to a skills highschool.
Now as for the people who stayed in the other school and learned basic skills. They go to a highschool that targets their interests (carpentry, mechanic, etc.) These highschool can combine to have like 4 different skills for that highschool. They go to that school and they take the classes needed to learn their profession.

The goal of this is to specialize and stop wasting time. I spent a year in algerbra 2 because i needed 3 years of math to graduate. I dont know if you remember algerbra 2, but I will never again use one bit of that being a carpenter. I will use geometry, but I will never EVER use algerbra 2 again. Nor will I use pretty much any of the bio and chem classes I was forced to take. I wasted two years taking science because I had to, A year of math I didn't need, a year of foriegn language I refuse to use anyway, a year taking a "fine and performing arts" to graduate". In other words, I wasted alot of time, and couldn't find a single class that I will seriously use specifically for my job. Granted I will use english and geometry and a business class I took to help me with my home life, I wasted alot of time on classes I will never need.

We need to get real specific because If we don't kids simply won't be quaified enough for their jobs? The better they are at what they do the more money they will make at it. What we are doing now is this. We balance everything out equally in attempts to get "a well rounded individual" but what we get is an average guy who isn't educated to specify anything to a great degree. Granted there are certian things people need to learn, it needs to be only the basics. We have to make an individual that can get by in some aspects, and be great in others rather then average in all aspects and great in none.

OH MAN!!!

Are you opening a can of worms and creating tons of work for the ACLU and their Nazi counterparts.

I don't specifically disagree with your premise, I do disagree with some of your educational presumptions though. Some of what you "take" in these classes gives rise to certain methodological approaches to thinking. They inspire the concept of investigation and research at an early age.

Can you imagine the parents standing in line because their child was "Profiled." WOW

Government has their hands in education too far as it is. That and everything else we do. I am basically opposed to any further intrusion by the government into any of our lives.

Semper

Maybe the individual states can take the lead with the federal funding for vocational education they receive and revamp curricula at vocational schools toward offering the skills needed for displaced workers to be useful and competitive in this changing job market.

Each state could assess job markets impacted within the state, as well as potential new markets created by the changing society, and direct resources to help displaced workers tranfer existing skills and develop the new skills needed to take advantage of the new opportunities created.

We will need areas of economic expansion outside of prisons, security, and the service industry in order to do this. There is little incentive for workers to re-train for new jobs that pay significantly less than their old jobs.

This, I believe, is where the federal government comes in, with investment in infrastructure and new technology that help develop new job markets for American workers.

Reading back over this, it seems like a pipe dream, but we are going to have to do something, and soon.

oops wrong thread.

[edit on 19-8-2006 by intrepid]

Originally posted by semperfortis
OH MAN!!!

Are you opening a can of worms and creating tons of work for the ACLU and their Nazi counterparts.

I don't specifically disagree with your premise, I do disagree with some of your educational presumptions though. Some of what you "take" in these classes gives rise to certain methodological approaches to thinking. They inspire the concept of investigation and research at an early age.

Can you imagine the parents standing in line because their child was "Profiled." WOW

Government has their hands in education too far as it is. That and everything else we do. I am basically opposed to any further intrusion by the government into any of our lives.

Semper

and what classes would those be. The only class I have had that has done that is two history teachers (not even the classes), an english teacher(again not the class) and the teach/elective called human conscience I took this past year. Other then that, I haven't had anything that gave me "investigate and research" I have probably learn more by the challanges of debate on this site then I ever have in school.

Thinking classes/teachers is the main thing we lack in school. None of them challange you to question and investigate or spark debates. The teachers simply go "this is the lesson plan" and if you have a question "I don't know, look in your book" is the most common response, even if its not in the book at all.

yet Grim, the evaluation, memorization and understanding of those formulas caused your brain to develop certain pathways and helped you form the ability to think along certain lines.

Doctor Spock at work my friend

Semper

actually me in particular it did nothing because i fell asleep through have of the year during chem and drawed pictures and slept during algerbra 2. By highschool I had learned what I needed as far as basics go, then my grades dropped because i was taking stuff I couldn't use so I didn't pay any attention
(when am I going to use 2x-3/5^6xpie=1/2 of the distance between two points on an xyz axis? yea probably never, but I sure would be disappointed if I was on who wants to be a millionaire and saw that)

[edit on 19-8-2006 by grimreaper797]

Actually I don't think the government have their hand in our educational system as you make think.

To many interest groups trying to create a perfect moral society are the ones that dictated most of what is teach in schools. Specially in small communities.

Going back to the issue of the economy I am going to bring one more fact about the health of it.

Even when the government is claiming that the economy is doing well we must understand that is other factors like many before me has said in this thread.

We have a War in Iraq could cost up to $9 billion monthly, says CBO, this was in 2005.

Estimated Costs of the Iraq War
usgovinfo.about.com...

In order to finance this war the government has to cut in many areas mostly the ones that have to do with the people needs.

Now no only we have lower pay jobs but also less incentives and help to alleviate the need of people that their jobs pay is no enough to support their families.

38.2 million Americans-including 13.8 million children-are food insecure. With an increase of more than 2 million people reported food insecure in 2004 compared to 2003.

releases.usnewswire.com...

Then in October 2005 the food stamp program was to be cut by $844 million for this year.

I can go on and on with other programs that are to service the communities and they are in danger.

Now how can a healthy economy can balance itself if people’s are getting cuts on other areas that will affect their lives?

Like somebody said before me everything looks good in paper.

References articles

US Agriculture Report Shows More Americans Struggling to Eat,
politics.abovetopsecret.com...

7 million more hungry people in the US, and the Gov't wants to let them starve?
politics.abovetopsecret.com...












[edit on 19-8-2006 by marg6043]

Wrong analogy for me Marg.

Welfare, foodstamps etc, are an unnecessary drain on the resources of our nation and should be discontinued completely, with the exception of those unable physically to work.

Everyone else needs to get a job or go hungry.

I really don't care if they cut social programs, or any other MASSIVELY abused government experiments gone completely out of control.

Semper

I think that before we can cut those we need to have a median. We cant just discontinue when they have become dependent on it. We have to give them a dead line. We need to force them off of it, but give some time to do so. We also need to reform the education system before we do this so we have people that can find the job that suits them so they dont need to.

I think unions should be formed, government should take out ALL business regulations and the unions can handle the businesses (thats how it was SUPPOSE TO BE). I think that once the educational system is reformed, people coming out of even highschool may be good enough at the job they have choosen where they are skilled enough to have a union for that job, and regulate that business with the unions to get decent pay to survive.

You cant demand pay to survive if your bad at your job. thats why the educational system needs to create specific education so that they can be very good at their jobs. This way they can demand better pay. Whoever has the best service will be the surviving business. If the workers out of the educational system are specified for that job, they will be the best at it. They create the unions, thus they control the field of business.

Originally posted by semperfortis
Wrong analogy for me Marg.

Perhaps for you but not for hard working Americans that get their middle class jobs outsourced and then had not other choice but to work at their local wal-mart.

Yes is some that will abuse the system just like governments abuse their citizens also when they cater to another agendas.

But still is that group in our nation that are still hard workers while their checks get smaller and smaller.

But is OK the Government said that they are helping with the health of the economy.

Is all good and dandy. One thing is what the government claim in their datas and another to go into the streets and see what is going on with the ever shrinking middle class in our nation.

Then I ask who is lobbying for middle class american.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
You cant demand pay to survive if your bad at your job. thats why the educational system needs to create specific education so that they can be very good at their jobs.

I remember that it used to be call vocational education but now is call higher education.

Before was given free in high schools now you have to pay for it.

And BTW the schools tuition are to go up very soon more than many poor families can afford.

Lower pay jobs, cuts on benefits and now higher cost of education. . . yes that makes the economy looks real healthy.

Public universities raise tuition, fees — and ire

www.usatoday.com...

Public university students nationwide are likely to face larger classes, longer lines and fewer course options when they return to campus in a few weeks.

[edit on 19-8-2006 by marg6043]

Originally posted by marg6043

Originally posted by grimreaper797
You cant demand pay to survive if your bad at your job. thats why the educational system needs to create specific education so that they can be very good at their jobs.

I remember that it used to be call vocational education but now is call higher education.

Before was given free in high schools now you have to pay for it.

And BTW the schools tuition are to go up very soon more than many poor families can afford.

Lower pay jobs, cuts on benefits and now higher cost of education. . . yes that makes the economy looks real healthy.

what I mean is we need to have highschool that have certian job types specified and that can provide a higher education at a younger age. By wasting all this time with education that isn't essential for them, youre making it harder for them. What you think is helping them is hurting them. If they want to learn something non basic or non job related, thats what a library is for. The internet is a tool for them as well.

There is no reason we should force education that isn't needed.

Why is it that everyone automatically assumes I'm pro-welfare?

I hate welfare!

I've heard that we're transitioning into a technological economy, but I haven't seen much evidence of that fact 'in the flesh' so to speak. I've seen lots of write-ups and reports that say X technology jobs were created, and so forth, but when it comes right down to it, the only jobs I see available for the majority of people are in service (in other words, slavery).

A lot of towns are trying to re-invent themselves into tourist destinations, since all the manufacturing jobs fled. The sense of that escapes me, because it's not a productive sector, it doesn't make anything.

Tech jobs are fine, but most people can't afford the training, or simply lack the intelligence necessary to compete in that market. How many people are joining the military in an effort to get some specialized training that will help them get a job when they get out?

Maybe a mandatory term of service is the answer. That way, you could integrate training into the requirement, and give all these people something to do after they've put their time in.

Still, this country needs a solution to deal with the 50% or whatever who are too dumb for any kind of demanding employment. They can't all work at McDonalds... With the death of the factories, and the mills, these people are very limited in the sort of work they can do. They can't even be subsistence farmers because of the outrageous real-estate costs and associated taxes!

Oh, on a side-note - the comments made earlier in this thread about the declining standards at colleges were right on the money. It's amazing to me that more than half of graduates are functionally illiterate, they can't read critically or analyze the information they take in. If you've got a college degree, you had damn well be able to read a food label, or compare two pieces of writing, or apply for a credit card - but these people can't!

What that means is, the 'value' of a degree has declined sharply. That especially sucks, at a time when tuitions are shooting up through the roof.

Originally posted by grimreaper797

By wasting all this time with education that isn't essential for them, youre making it harder for them. What you think is helping them is hurting them. If they want to learn something non basic or non job related, thats what a library is for. The internet is a tool for them as well.

I tell you what higher education in the first two years of a 4 year degree is wasted in classes that could be taken in high school.

Is a waste of money and time. Then the following two years are the classes that goes into the degree . . . after that the post graduate is nothing more than a combination of practice and experiences.

I know I have a child in college and I have spend more money on useless classes than the classes that goes for the degree itself.

But that is how money is make sometimes leaving the student spending more than needed and when the money is gone there goes the student loans.

Higher education is becoming harder to achieved for regular students.

What I am trying to say is education is the key to our problems right now. As education as dropped over the years, so has our nations quality and leadership. Education is the key to a nations survival. We need an immediate education reform so we have time to figure out what to do next.

I explained it before. If you educate the people toward certian jobs, you will get the people as a whole to benefit more. Some one who is more educated about their profession will work more efficiently. A person who works more efficiently, will make more money, regardless of the field. You have a large group of people who are very skilled, and form a union. This group is the best at it. Whoever this group works for, will have the best grade product. The best grade product is the best product for business. Th best business makes the most profit. That profit is good for business. Everyone goes home happy. The union can keep the business in check.

You know what would solver all our problems in the U.S.? Abolish the Federal Reserve. They're what's destroying the economy, plain and simple. As someone said before, these "numbers" are a huge smoke and mirrors charade. Gold is still at a high rate, oil barrel cost is still increasing, the national debt is almost 10 trillion (think about how big that number is for a second), funding is decreasing every year for educational purposes...it's a nightmare of untangled webs. The group behind all of this is the Federal Reserve. As Thomas Jefferson once said:

I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies . . . If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] . . . will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered . . . The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.
Letter to the Secretary of the Treasury Albert Gallatin (1802) ; later published in The Debate Over The Recharter Of The Bank Bill (1809)

This entire quote explains exactly what we are going through.


[edit on 19-8-2006 by Amschel Rothschild]

Semper, I love it when the thread author hangs around and comments.
But, I just gotta wonder. Michigan's economy is a joke. No way, no how can the residents of this state feel all warm and fuzzy with articles such as yours.

If nothing else, look at the remnants of GM and Ford. And, now our "Governor" thinks the Federal Government should step in and bail out the auto industry. Yeah, that will do wonders for the economy.

This may be a bit off topic but I think we need to be reminded that all is not as rosy as it's often reported.
Not all the Michigan cars heading out of Michigan are going on vacation.

www.umich.edu...
www.mackinac.org...
www.cbpp.org...

There are certain economic indicators that can tell how our economy is doing. In the US of A, a house purchase, for instance, is seen as an "investment". Well ... That's not actually true. It's worth snot until you find someone who will give you what you may perceive as it's real value.

Having said that, it would seem that not only on the "Left Coast" are we beginning to suffer Real Estate Constipation, but here in the lovely Midwest (hereafter, referred to as God's Country ) ...

I live in a relatively rural area. Used to be country up until about 3 years ago. Now all them damned city slickers are moving out here and trying to turn it into the city.

Big problem starting this year. The 1,200 house subdivision at the end of my "country road" is now standing still. No construction going on, at all. I spoke with a fellow who has a lot of his money tied up iin a tract of demo houses and with lots more lots to fill up. He says that the whole real estate gig is really hurting. Nothing is moving. The Holy War in the East and our hallucination that we are going to rebuild the Middle East in our image has driven the cost of all construction material through the roof. The rising cost of gasoline has put the Kaybash on people who want to live in a rural fashion and commute to the city (none of this bothers me in the least... Stay where you are you danged city slickers!

Jobs are drying up as industry goes away out here, and that does bother me. There are people out here who own property, or are in the process of buying property. These people, some anyway, worked at the manufacturing plants anywhere from 10 - 20 years plus. Suddenly, those jobs are gone. These folks are stuck in a no win situation. And all you can tell them is to get a job. There are, unfortunately, only so many service jobs available here (Wal-Mart, Burger King, Hardy's) and most of those are filled by school kids, or folks who are retired and don't want to live at home.
These folks can't afford to sell property that isn't selling. They can't afford to move. They lose their property. They lose their livelyhood. They lose their cars. They lose their unemployment after 6 months in Missouri. They are slowly, but surely, becoming desperate. And you want them to find a job? Hmmmm.... Methinks you are working on taking us into another great depression with such an outstanding economy. And this observation is only what is happening within 10 miles of my little country cottage.

Oh me? Well, let's see. At one point in my life, I was earning six figures as a highly touted computer wienie. Over the years, first, someone moved my cheese, and I didn't notice. So, consequently, due in large part to circumstance beyond my control, and due to some of my lack of foresight, I had two jobs shot out from under me. One went to Canada, wherein I had to train my Arab replacement, or lose my job immediately. The next one came with a hefty pay cut, but still barely useful. IN the end, despite loyalty and a clean work effort, I tearfully waved good bye as the job left for the friendly lands of India. But I came back with another hefty pay cut. Finally, that last job went away, fortunately, to Minneapolis, so some American will benefit from it.

Could I have followed the job? Nope. I was simply a contractor working for a big company and was given no consideration in that regard. What did I do?

Went to work for the County Sheriff, working as a Detention Enforcement Officer (read jailer) for the magnificent sum of 10 bucks an hour. No other job was availabel due to age (another topic for another time), and cost of transporta vs distance.

That job went away due to political considerations. There was a fight well above my station in life. However, due to being perceived to being a member of the losing side ... Well... Out the window.

Next job. Really highly qualified for it. After spending many years in an office environment, I began hanging siding here in Missouri about 3 weeks ago when we had thos 115+ heat index days. Wife asked me to quit, she was afraid that I am a bit long in the tooth to be out there trying to do a young man's job in that environment.

I have been looking for employment since then... Zilch... Nada... Don't call us .. We'll call you.

I finaly filed for unemployment. The state has two investigations ongoing in my behalf, as it were... Trying to deny me something that I have been paying into for a great many years. Easy to make someone with a high work ethic and desire to be self supporting, feel guilty for asking for $270/week stipend.

Lesseee.... What can I do next? Well ... There's Ebay! I have a used pair of cowboy boots very like the pair a friend of mine sold out there for one hundred fifty bucks.

Nah... You can sit there and be comfortable and tell me how amazingly well the economy is doing. I usually like what you write, but this time I'm throwing the Bulldada card.

I don't have any answers.. That's for sure, other than I wish I had been born rich instead of so good looking.

And Semp'... Please feel free to disregard anything I've said. Nothing personal was intended. Just felt like ranting about a tough situation, getting tougher. And there are a vast number of people out here, who have it ever so much worse than I do.

Edited for a couple of rant-like clarifications.

[edit on 19-8-2006 by sigung86]