Jew and Christians. What gives?

I am curious to understand the temperment of Christians and their relationship to Jews and Israel. There is no hidden meaning here, I just need help understanding both perspectives. Here are my questions.

1). Christians and Jews prophecies are similiar, yet they differ, where exactly? And how does this difference ultimately affect the relationship?

2). Do Jews think that christians will have a seat in their kingdom? What are the gentiles truly to the jews?

3). Is Armeggedon their ultimate goal?

All interests are appreciated, Thanks,

AAC

[edit on 12-8-2006 by AnAbsoluteCreation]

Not really sure about the first two questions but the third is scary. It seems to me that some Zionist are actully hoping for Armegeddon, prompting the return of Christ. This is very dangerous and irresponsible in my opinion. We have placed ourselves in this situation through very careless foreshadowing(development of nuclear weapons) and other abuses toward the earth. I see the earth simply cleansing itself of the parasites (humanity) by natural disaster way before I see Christ returning to Rapture up the believers to let the rest of us perish. It is my opinion that this is the type of thinking that got us here in the first place. The mindset that "it doesn't matter if we destroy the earth through war and pollution, God will save us". I guess time will tell, but somehow I think that "I told you so" won't really matter when food can't be grown due to heat and famine and fresh water becomes scarce. And I won't be surprised when we attribute all of this to God's wrath. More like human error. Just my opinion.

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
1). Christians and Jews prophecies are similiar, yet they differ, where exactly? And how does this difference ultimately affect the relationship?

Jews: The Messiah is comming.
Christians: He came, he saw, he conquerored.
Relationship: The whole sacrificial lamb thing in the old testament was to be done until the Messiah came, to roll over sins, not to cleanse them. Sin would be taken care of by him that would come, so while your sins were not full yon your shoulder, they wern't taken by anoyne else and could easily still slip back on yous.
The Law was temporary. Messiah would reset those laws...and Christians believe he did to make it the heart not the actual letter of the law being the most important.
Not all straight cut. There are some sects of Judiasm that clearly say that the messiah came and the Jews missed him...and some Christians call Christ's visit to earth more symbolic than real.

2). Do Jews think that christians will have a seat in their kingdom? What are the gentiles truly to the jews?

Again, which jews? Some Jews expect to see anyone who is actively seeking God, whether or not he found Him, to be there. Main Stream Jews? Most of them are more an ethnic gathering and many doubt the actual existance of God, since the Messiah still hasn't come, some 6000 years since the first promise? The same can be asked of Christians.

3). Is Armeggedon their ultimate goal?

Armageddon, in both cases, is generally the inevitable, sort of like a black hole that all are sucked to. From dust you came, to dust you'll return. Not that they are longed for...though most do have this wistful feeling of "when will this all end, I want to be with my Daddy?" Got to remember, some Jewish sects during Christ's time didn't beleive in an afterlife. The end just ends... Actually , many on both sides believe that Armageddon/the end of times will be a lot less...advertised...than the traditional blockbuster movie.


Questions are too broad. That would be like going up to some of the Musslims that sell jewlryat my local mall and asking them why they would blow up the Twin Towers...and some would see the above Q:s that offensively. I had enough of a time trying to figure out how to talk about pork to them without comming across as patronizing.

[edit on 12-8-2006 by jlc163]

Christianity emerged from Judaism.

1). Christians and Jews prophecies are similiar, yet they differ, where exactly? And how does this difference ultimately affect the relationship?

These are some differences:

1. Judaism believes everyone has salvation and do not require to convert to Judaism
   
2. In Judaism there is no Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) but just God
   
3. In Judaism Jesus was not the Son of God but just a normal human and he did not rise from the dead. They are stiil looking for the Messiah to come
   
4. For Christians, Jesus replaced the Jewish law but traditional jews still require them
   
5. Judaism does not accept the idea of original sin and does not believe Jesus took away this sin
   
6. For Christians Jesus is the only was to get to heaven. For Jews there is not a distinctive heaven and Hell but after death you at a lesser or greater distance from God.
   

2). Do Jews think that christians will have a seat in their kingdom? What are the gentiles truly to the jews?

Yes, they think everyone goes to the kingdom. See point 6 above. The Jews do not regard themselves as better than other people, but believe they are held special in God's eyes.

3). Is Armeggedon their ultimate goal?

Im not sure. But they certainly believe in it.

Originally posted by LancerJ1
Christianity emerged from Judaism.

1). Christians and Jews prophecies are similiar, yet they differ, where exactly? And how does this difference ultimately affect the relationship?

These are some differences:

1. Judaism believes everyone has salvation and do not require to convert to Judaism
   
2. In Judaism there is no Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) but just God
   
3. In Judaism Jesus was not the Son of God but just a normal human and he did not rise from the dead. They are stiil looking for the Messiah to come
   
4. For Christians, Jesus replaced the Jewish law but traditional jews still require them
   
5. Judaism does not accept the idea of original sin and does not believe Jesus took away this sin
   
6. For Christians Jesus is the only was to get to heaven. For Jews there is not a distinctive heaven and Hell but after death you at a lesser or greater distance from God.
   

2). Do Jews think that christians will have a seat in their kingdom? What are the gentiles truly to the jews?

Yes, they think everyone goes to the kingdom. See point 6 above. The Jews do not regard themselves as better than other people, but believe they are held special in God's eyes.

3). Is Armeggedon their ultimate goal?

Im not sure. But they certainly believe in it.

Thank you, very helpful.

Why do they think they are special in God's eyes? Because the covenant with Abraham? Do they not believe that another religion could have their own covenant with God, which also makes them special in God's eyes?

Go look up Moses' father in law. He was a high priset of God, and he wasn't a Jew.
Ruth was a Moabite, but she was King David's grannie.

Also, think about how some parents treat their favorite. They expect more out of them and punish them more. Being the fovored of God doesn't always mean you have ntohing but sunshine. The jews were aware of this, too.

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
Thank you, very helpful.

Why do they think they are special in God's eyes? Because the covenant with Abraham? Do they not believe that another religion could have their own covenant with God, which also makes them special in God's eyes?

Glad to help mate

Yes. They are God's chosen people by covenant. God told Abraham that he will make of him a great nation and he will bless those who bless them and curse those that curse them.

Im not sure about the second part of your question, as to my knowledge there were no other covenants made to other peoples. Here's a site that tells a little about what the Jews say here

[edit on 12-8-2006 by LancerJ1]

[edit on 12-8-2006 by LancerJ1]

[edit on 12-8-2006 by LancerJ1]

Lancer, thanks for the link.

I noticed one of the their laws is not to shed blood. How is this justified? AAC

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
I am curious to understand the temperment of Christians and their relationship to Jews and Israel. ......

Christians consider Jewish believers in Yahweh to be their "elder brothers" in the faith and are consistent in their support of Israel and her right to be a sovereign nation in the land covenanted to them by God for that reason. Christians will be rejoicing when the "day of the Gentiles" is complete and all Israel is saved.

Christians recognize the debt they owe the Jewish believers for carrying on the Torah and the knowledge of God for many years before Christ was made manifest as Yahshua/Jesus the Christ, and for holding to the precepts of God so that Christans can learn of them.

We long for the day when the Israelites are surrounded by peace and comfort in their homeland. We pray for the peace of Jerusalem, and that all Jewish people will become believers in their Messiah, Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

Maranatha!

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
Lancer, thanks for the link.

I noticed one of the their laws is not to shed blood. How is this justified? AAC

Apparently by Jewish law you can kill in self defence or in the defence of another when in a moment of unavoidable urgency, when life is in immediate danger.

Jewish law generally does not permit one to save oneself or others by killing other innocents.

As far as war goes, Jews detest it. Before starting war there must be a genuine attempt to make peace and avoid the conflict. Only combatants are allowed to be killed intentionally in war. Civilian should be given a good chance to leave the combat area before the battle starts.

What is AAC?

Is Armegedeon the final goal?

Interesting you state it that way.

The evangelical Christians are pushing for Armegedeon and dont realize it.
They are pushing hate, war, etc. blinded by the end that Jesus will return and all the evil is from prophesy.

What is really happening is they are creating their own reality.
They think war and suffering have to happen, and the ironic thing is, they make it happen.

So in a sense, Evangelicals are a large reason for the continuation of a lot of the war happening now. The leaders of the evangelicals are far from being Christians (know leaders first hand), but the sheeple that follow cant ask and answer questions themselves.

Evangelical Christianity is Zionism, period. If your a Jew and a zionist, then you are the same as an Evangelical Christian.

On the other hand, the mystics such as Thomas Merton, Theresa Avil, (CAtholic) - Rav Abulafia (Jew), have more in common and are on the same wave length then what one would suppose.

Its the sheeple in the middle that look at things as divided black and white, no shades of grey.
Im here to tell you, the shades get you from one end to another, there is not clear black and white...only when the extremes contrast to one another.

In this world, as it is it is full of duality to make things move.

Doesnt have to be that way necessarily.

But most people dont want change, period.

Im not here to convince anyone, cause you either will get it...or not. And Im just here confirming what you know.

Peace

dalen

Originally posted by LancerJ1


What is AAC?

Simply An Absolute Creation... Thanks for the insight. I beleive most people don't understand this. AAC

I had a question - do Jews view Jesus as sort of a prophet as Muslims do?

Secondly, doesn't Christianity also portray Jews as God's "chosen" people.

See... I've been to Catholic school and Protestant school my WHOLE life but there are 2 things that have always extremely bothered me:

I've always thought about Christianity and I've always turned my back on it because I just can't come to accept that God has actually chosen a certain group of people over another.

I also can't accept that my grandparents, parents, family members... who AREN'T Christians, but lived a life so pure and good-heartedness would go to hell for not accepting the "only savior."

[edit on 13-8-2006 by k4rupt]

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
Christians and Jews prophecies are similiar, yet they differ, where exactly?

The biggest difference is an interpretation of the messiah. When the jews were down trodden, they beleived that there'd be a messiah, the word mean 'annointed'. Kings are annointed when they come to power, and there is also a certain hint of being 'selected by god' in the meaing of it, I think. The jewish messiah, then, was supposed to be someone that would come about, overthrow the occupiers of israel, and re-install the kingship of King David's dynasty.
Then jesus came along and said that all of that was metaphor, the 'new king' would be the son of god, king of kings, the new kingdom or new jerusalem would be those who are faithful to him as the son of god and god himself.

And how does this difference ultimately affect the relationship?

Its all in the interpretation. Most christians at the begining were wildly anti-jewish, they saw the jews as holding on to a fallen religion, refusing to accept the 'completion' that jesus had brought about. Nowadays, some beleive that, and others beleive that, because the old testament speaks so highly of Israel and hte jews (for obvious reasons), and since god wrote the bible, taht therefore, its ok that jews aren't christers, they get some sort of special waiver or something.

Do Jews think that christians will have a seat in their kingdom? What are the gentiles truly to the jews?

I've never really understood what precisely the point of the jewish religion is. It doesn't seem to be explicit that you will 'go to heaven', or that there even is a heaven. Rather, it seems like they are saying 'God is the creator, he is the master, we must simply obey him, be slaves to him, and thus, keep his laws and dietary requirements and clothing requirements, etc, simply because he is right because he is the supreme god'.

Is Armeggedon their ultimate goal?

?
Goal? As in somethign they are working for?
The jews don't necessarily beleive in an 'end of days', as the christians and muslims (and I think zoroasterians) do. Rather, their concern is, God is supreme, righteous, and all good. By subjecting ourselves to his commands, however bizzare they are (ie no cheeseburgers), we are in effect doing what is right and proper for a being created by him, irrespective of whether we die and get to spend eterninty playing harps on clouds, jumping around with 72 virgins, or whathaveyou.

But, of course, a jew could answer that better. And, of course, one has to keep in mind, there are many traditions within the religion, indeed, christianity grew out of judaism, so there has to be some basis within it. Consider, for example, that a subsection of the lubavitch hasidic jews beleive that their previous "grande rebbe", their leader who died a few years ago and was buried, will rise up out of the grave and be the messiah who restores Israel!

kleverone
It seems to me that some Zionist are actully hoping for Armegeddon, prompting the return of Christ.

...
I am really curious as to why you would think that. TO the jews, jesus was, at best, a nice but utterly misguided doode. They don't expect him to return to life, they don't beleive he is the son of god, and they don't, as far as I know, beleive that there will be an 'end of the world', and certainly don't beleive that it will have anything to do with that dead jesus guy from 2,000 years ago.

Originally posted by k4rupt
I had a question - do Jews view Jesus as sort of a prophet as Muslims do?

Secondly, doesn't Christianity also portray Jews as God's "chosen" people.

See... I've been to Catholic school and Protestant school my WHOLE life but there are 2 things that have always extremely bothered me:

I've always thought about Christianity and I've always turned my back on it because I just can't come to accept that God has actually chosen a certain group of people over another.

I also can't accept that my grandparents, parents, family members... who AREN'T Christians, but lived a life so pure and good-heartedness would go to hell for not accepting the "only savior."

[edit on 13-8-2006 by k4rupt]

The Jews see Jesus as an ordinary human. Some thought of him as an ethical teacher, others saw him as someone who challenged the religious authorities for their practices.

God isnt upholding the Jews over everyone else. We are all seen as special in his eyes, and he favours no one over another. But the Jews are God's 'chosen' people through God's covenant with Abraham. The Jews are Abraham's descendents. He will bless those who bless them and curse those who curse them. This was more distinct in the bible times as any nation that attacked them were eventually destroyed. I suppose i modern day example is the Holocaust. The Nazis where destroyed. But God has extended this grace to any believer.

I understand Hell seems a harsh punishment for those who live ethically and by the law. But if you dont want to be a Christian you are saying you dont want to know God and so God is giving you what you want, separation from him.

Originally posted by dAlen
Is Armegedeon the final goal?

Interesting you state it that way.

The evangelical Christians are pushing for Armegedeon and dont realize it.
They are pushing hate, war, etc. blinded by the end that Jesus will return and all the evil is from prophesy.

What is really happening is they are creating their own reality.
They think war and suffering have to happen, and the ironic thing is, they make it happen.

So in a sense, Evangelicals are a large reason for the continuation of a lot of the war happening now. The leaders of the evangelicals are far from being Christians (know leaders first hand), but the sheeple that follow cant ask and answer questions themselves.

Evangelical Christianity is Zionism, period. If your a Jew and a zionist, then you are the same as an Evangelical Christian.
dalen

How come you say this? Why do you think Evangelical Christians are pushing war?