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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Secondly, political cartoons are not "lies". They are not expected to be believed. That's like saying a novel is a lie. It didn't really happen, but it's generally known to be untrue. It's not portrayed as being true. And it isn't. Neither are political cartoons.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Well, like I've said before, good luck in court with that logic.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
A false claim by a corporation is generally expected to be true. Kind of like a biography.
A political cartoon is generally expected to be untrue. Like a novel.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
We may have been through this, but you haven't yet told me how people are harmed, except of course that they might be offended. I have said I don't believed they are harmed. You say they are. Tell me how. Their feelings are hurt? Welcome to life.
Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
I'm going to expand on this a bit, because I don't think BH has quite nailed this idea.
A political cartoon has a surface depicted fact which is absurd and which nobody is expected to believe, but it also has an underlying statement of fact and/or opinion that people are supposed to take seriously.
Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
For example, in the cartoon that shows Bush riding a missile, the surface depicted fact is that Bush joyrides on ICBMs. Well, that's absurd, of course he does nothing of the kind, and nobody is expected to believe that he does.
But the underlying statement of opinion (not fact in this case) is that Bush is a warmonger. People are expected to take that seriously.
Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
The cartoonist is saying, "George W. Bush is a warmonger," and the cartoon is his/her way of expressing that sentiment.
The statement "Bush joyrides on ICBMs" is a statement of fact, which is false.
Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
The statement "Bush is a warmonger" is a statement of opinion, which is neither true nor false.
Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
A cartoon might conceivably cross into the territory of libel if its underlying statement (not its surface statement) is one of fact, is malicious, and is incorrect.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I'm not at all sure I've agreed to that. The superficial (and not meant to be taken literally) picture isn't true, but I wouldn't call it a lie. It's a cartoon... Calling it a lie is much the same as calling Scoobie-Doo a lie because dogs don't really talk...
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Look at the heading of your source. Privacy Law. In other words, personal rights ARE privacy rights.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
And don't miss the quote from your source:
Points to remember:
1. There’s no privacy in public.
If you’re doing it in a public place, you can’t claim privacy.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
What Constitutional right(s) do politial cartoons infringe upon?
Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
Just another point of clarification:
I don't believe Saint4God is talking about constitutional rights, but rather about moral rights, rights that we recognize or should whether or not they are protected in current law. He is not even talking about rights that SHOULD be recognized in law, if I understand him correctly, but rather about rights that we, as individuals, should recognize in our own behavior. Didn't he specifically state early on that he did not believe cartoonists should be subject to legal censorship? That implies he's not talking about what is, or even should be, rights under the law, but must mean rights in another sense.
Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
As an example, my friends have a right to generous behavior on my part, not because the law or the Constitution says they do, but because I say they do.
Saint4God is, if I understand him correctly (always a chancy assumption), saying that satirical cartoonists should not do what they do, that it causes harm to people, and that we as consumers should boycott their products. He further says that people have a right not to have their feelings, or those of their families, hurt by satire. This is what we need to be discussing.
Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
I think it is a highly debatable assertion,
Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
but the set of rights defined and protected under the Constitution doesn't really have a bearing here.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Personally I feel the discussion has gone all over the place. But...
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
He is not even talking about rights that SHOULD be recognized in law, if I understand him correctly, but rather about rights that we, as individuals, should recognize in our own behavior.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Perhaps. I honestly thought he (is he a he? - I didn't know) was talking about Constitutional rights as he mentioned the rights to liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
For not wanting to discuss Constitutional rights, he certainly talks a lot about it.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
But I'll roll up my Constitution and go home if that's not what we're talking about.
Originally posted by saint4God
The difference is a novel does not portray real people saying and doing unreal things in order to add accusation and insult.
I see no disclaimers stating this.
Do you believe in personal integrity?
How about character?
How about being perceived properly by your friends, family, associates and others?
How about the invasions of the press to verify whether or not a cartoon has any "truth" behind it?
Constand phone calls, e-mails, and harrassments related thereof?
You're children being hounded where-ever they go because of it.
Again, it would really help to put on a different pair of shoes for a moment.
Originally posted by saint4God
Is Scooby-Doo real?
Also, the article seems to contain all three....Those are two distince words in the dictionary, but again, no law degree where.
Already addressed.
Originally posted by saint4God
Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
OK, let me make sure I understand you here, because I'm still by no means certain. Are you suggesting that we each have a right to define ourselves for public consumption, and not be defined by others?
No.
Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
I'm not saying "don't be watchful" just not assume guilt & corruption.
Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
Being that most politicians do not have the time to go to court (they do have a job to do), then the assumption is that these cartoons are true?
The intern was also employed by us. Erego, fooling around with her supervisor on company time. Are you saying this isn't a problem either?
Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
All right. We're the politicians' boss. But since we're a huge collective boss, we must have discussions among ourselves, very public ones, about whether our employees are doing good jobs or not. I'm saying that political cartooning and other forms of satire are a necessary and valuable part of that discussion.
Why?
You can be watchful without being afraid of corruption.
Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
It is, I believe, your position that people have a right not to be offended. On this basis do you contend that people's rights are being infringed by political cartoons. If people do NOT have that right, then their rights are NOT being infringed. So this goes very much to the heart of the matter.
Already addressed.
Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
Oh, I do, believe me. In fact, that is the biggest reason why I am uneasy about conceding a "right not to be offended." I do not recognize a right not to be confronted, or even not to have one's children confronted (except in one's own home or church, of course), by MY religion and values.
But -- sauce for the goose, etc. I turned the example around, because the same principle really does apply the other way, too.
Sure, if they were parallel examples. But, they're not.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Do you understand what an analogy is?
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
If you insist that 'differences' between a concept and an analogy of that concept disprove the analogy, then I won't use them anymore. Pointing out a 'difference' is simply proving that we're talking about an analogy and not the original concept.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Naturally there are differences, but it's the commonalities between the original concept (political cartoon) and its analogy (novel) that make the point. Neither is expected to be true.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
What's the lie?
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
You need a disclaimer on a cartoon?
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Do you think Scoobie-Doo really talks?
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Do you think George Bush really rides missiles through the sky?
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Would you be content if there were a disclaimer on such political cartoons?
Caution: George Bush does not actually ride missiles through the air, but it is my opinion that he is a war monger.
...
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
So then, I've asked you a simple question (How are these people harmed) and you answered with several personal questions about how I feel about things. Is this supposed to answer my direct question to you? I don’t know if it will, but I will answer yours.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I absolutely do. I have a great sense of personal integrity. (I don’t insist others do, though. That’s up to them.)
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I'm going to assume you mean "moral excellence and firmness" as stated in m-w. And do I believe in it? Well, yes, I believe it's important for me to maintain moral excellence. And I do. (I don’t insist others do, though. Their moral standards are up to them.)
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I hope to be perceived as what I am. However, their perception is something they own and actually has very little to do with me. It's entirely up to them to believe or disregard anything they might see or hear about me.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
What? I'm not sure what the first part of that question means, but a cartoon isn't supposed to be "truth". It isn't expected to be "truth". A political cartoon is understood to be the opinion of the cartoonist or the periodical. It makes a statement. A statement of opinion. So, I guess no. It's not necessary to verify "truth" behind a cartoon. Is that your question?
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
If I were a public figure, no doubt I would understand that having accepted the power or fame that my position endows, I would expect (not love) a certain amount of harassment from the general public. That's why they have assistants, bodyguards, Mailwasher and telephone answering machines. I have the last 2 myself, as I hate to be hassled, even as a private citizen.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Public figures virtually give up their rights to privacy.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
If I didn't want my children involved, I would either not have taken the position or I would work very hard to keep them out of the limelight. Ultimately, though, I made a choice to become a public figure knowing that my family's privacy would no longer be secure.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Well, I can put on the shoes, but they don't fit. I am a VERY private person. I don't know if you've listened to any of my PODcasts but I am a singer. I don't do badly. I could have been a professional singer and I still could. But I won't. Because I don't want the life.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
The people who are making these phone calls, writing these emails and harassing public figures and their children are responsible for their actions, NOT the cartoonist nor the cartoon, nor the publication. If some jerk makes a threatening phone call or hassles a child, only HE is responsible for doing it.
Originally posted by saint4God
Because it isn't spelled out in the Constitution in the same way it is spelled out in the Declaration of Independence? I'm unsure why our founding fathers should have to repeat themselves every time there's an amendment. Okay, game on. If we can agree that the Constitution does not negate, nullify, take away from and only adds to the Declaration of Independence then I'm good to go to move on.
We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do.
Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
there is no legal force to any language in the Declaration of Independence except the words severing our allegiance to the British Crown. (And even that provoked some serious disagreement at the time.) That a right is spelled out in the Declaration gives it no legal protection at all.
Originally posted by saint4God
See "coffee" parallel in response to Benevolent Heretic's post.
Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
For example, in the cartoon that shows Bush riding a missile, the surface depicted fact is that Bush joyrides on ICBMs. Well, that's absurd, of course he does nothing of the kind, and nobody is expected to believe that he does.
But the underlying statement of opinion (not fact in this case) is that Bush is a warmonger. People are expected to take that seriously.
Why? Looks like a way to skirt ethical journalism.
Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
The statement "Bush joyrides on ICBMs" is a statement of fact, which is false.
So you agree the picture is untrue. False depiction, lie.
Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
The statement "Bush is a warmonger" is a statement of opinion, which is neither true nor false.
The statement "Bush is a warmonger" is a baseless accusation when left without any supporting evidence. There is a truth, this cartoon is presenting the opinion as if it were true. This is a problem.
Originally posted by saint4God
There is no legal force to stop me from traveling well over the speedlimit on the interstate, even though it's a law.
Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
The $200 I paid this month for a speeding ticket says you're wrong.
Originally posted by saint4God
What point do the "commonalities" establish?
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Do you think George Bush really rides missiles through the sky?
No, erego the falsehood.
Originally posted by saint4God
The author should simply write, "it is my opinion that he is a war monger" rather than try to prove this point by a slanderous falsehood.
What if I were to broadcast constant false statements about you.
But the people want to know if there's any truth behind a cartoon...even though it's just an opinion
Interesting, your solution to harrassment is to have someone handle your mail and phone calls for you. I understand this and "screen" myself, but should I have to?
I believe your rights are being violated then. You should be able to pursue that happiness without revoking the protections we inherently have as citizens. Do you agree?
Originally posted by saint4God
Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
The $200 I paid this month for a speeding ticket says you're wrong.
You drove over the speedlimit on the interstate I'm talking about? That's odd, I did that for over a decade and never got a ticket.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Neither is expected to be true.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
So you're upset about the surface picture of the cartoon and not the opinion of the cartoonist beneath (that Bush is a warmonger)?
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
And you think people are harassing him and his family about him riding a missile?
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
That is what he's saying. Only he's saying it with a picture. We're allowed to do that. He's not trying to prove anything.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Slanderous falsehood???
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Hon, that just has no basis in reality. A cartoon is not a slanderous falsehood. It's a cartoon! It's a statement of opinion, satire or humor.
Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
The point is, the legal force behind any law only applies if you get caught. That's understood. If you murder someone and nobody finds out you did it, there will be no legal consequences, but murder is still against the law.
Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
In that sense, the Constitution is the law of the land, while the Declaration of Independence, except for the clause severing America from British rule, is not.
Originally posted by saint4God
I'm curious, why would the Declaration of Independence be valid for the writers and not every citizen for which it was written? I don't remember reading in the Constitution that "the Declaration of Independence is nullified...except..."
Originally posted by saint4God
I think there is the expectation that there's an "underlying truth" in a poli/personal cartoon. Do you agree?
The underlying accusation cause additional harm.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Slanderous falsehood???
*nods*
Okay. I'm going by definitions and principles, not particular articles of state laws. I don't know them nor understand why that would be a problem.
Negative, asking you to place yourself in that position for a moment to see what it looks like.
Your choices are conforming to your environment, instead of your environment being accepting your choices. Do you see the difference?
Originally posted by saint4God
my question is, when does "free speech" become slander?