We All Dread the Day

We all dread the day when we face a serious illness and our doctor knows a few statistics but not the complete story. The medical researcher "knows" the illness but his phone is disconnected in a chemistry lab. The doctor knows that to keep his $200,000 to $10,000,000 a year income that his visit with you must last between 10 seconds and 1 minute. Our very life is in danger, but we feel disconnected from the whole medical system.

My policy is to integrate mathematicians into medical research and to integrate medical research into physicians.

I'm not sure I understand where the conspiracy, evidence, or source is in your post...also, I'd love to meet the doctor that makes ten million dollars.

~MFP

A conspiracy might be from the "intelligent" stealing from the "less intelligent."

As a Heart Disease, Cancer, and Stroke researcher, I cannot even imagine working for a penny.

$200,000 to 10,000,000

Where did you get those figures?

Let me give you a quick reality check. Being a MD is no loger the ticket for $$$$$. In many ways that is good. It means that most do It because its something they want to do. Forget the fact that the average MD puts thier life on hold for 8-12 years depending on speciality and if they do a fellowship, and forget the fact that many are saddled with 200,000 + in student loans by the time they are finished here is how it generaly breaks down (Please note, this is for a major university based teaching hospital and are rough but close:

Residents may make 25-35,000 a year (US) and remeber that new laws are in effect that LIMIT thier hours to a max of like 80 a week

Fellows make 35-45,000 depending on speciality.

A pediatrician may make between 140-150,000 a year (but some clinics like the one my son goes to offer profit sharing)

A faculty level attending MD / Professor makes125-200000 a year and head of department may make 50K over that.

For comparison when Stanford hired Frank Handley who is the #1 Pediatric cardiac surgeon in the world (no I am not kidding) and his #2 man (who is also #2 in the world) in 1999 from the University of California medical system they were at the time the two higest payed employees in the state of California system making 1.25 million and 750,000 respectivly. They make the same at Stanford, and these guys are the equvilent of say a Wayne Gretzky or Micheal Jordan in thier fields.

By comparison at the same hospital a Registered Nurse just out of school working nights makes 100,000 a year. Someone who is a staff nurse IV and has been there say 10 years can cruise the 140K range with no problem

So a top world class surgeon may cruise in the 1 million range, but the reality is its much much less.

[edit on 5/7/06 by FredT]

Thanks for the statistics FredT. Frequently, I believe the world is money-driven. I think of the non-world Heaven too soon.

Fred: those numbers for doctor pay are similar to what I've seen for doctors around here, but I'm pretty sure nurses here don't make anywhere near that much money. (maybe they do and I am wrong?) I thought I remembered nurses here telling me they made thirty-some dollars an hour, which is something like $60k/yr or so.

Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
(maybe they do and I am wrong?) I thought I remembered nurses here telling me they made thirty-some dollars an hour, which is something like $60k/yr or so.

The SF Bay Area has the higest nursing related salaries in the US and really in the world. But also factor in that a 1150 sq foot 3br 2 ba house built in 1954 in palo Alto will run you about 1.2-1.5 million or so.

For a new grad nurse at my facility (the one mentined above) By the end of your probation period (6 months) You are looking at a base rate (minus all adjustments) of 39.54 to 43.13 depending on staff nurse level. An experience nurse that is say a Staff Nurse IV Step 8 is at 54.66 an hour. Add to that the differentials 10% more for evenings (3-11) and 18% more for nights (that can be anywhere from 7-10 dollars an hour more. Plus 5% more on weekends and 7.5 percent more when in charge you could have a nurse making over 30% above thier base any given night.

That would give that Staff Nurse IV Step 8 a base rate of 71.31 cents an hour (I would know as I was part of the group that negotiated this contract)

The pay scale details can be found here
Pay Scales

DragonsDemesne the pay you quoted is consistent with most nursing wages these days in other areas.

[edit on 5/7/06 by FredT]

I'm not sure I understand where the conspiracy, evidence, or source is in your post

Med student...the name of this forum is "Medical Issues and Conspiracies"....so there doesn't need to be a conspiracy in this forum. This forum is also for "medical issues".....

And I bet you would like to meet the doctors that make $10,000,000!!

Excitable, please refer to the T&C

2) Behavior: You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack anyone.

Grazie mille =)

~Mariella

[edit on 5/7/2006 by bsl4doc]

God bless mathematicians, medical researchers, and physicians.

I believe that mathematicians should also become medical researchers, and physicians, that medical researchers should also become mathematicians, and physicians, and that physicians should also become mathematicians, and medical researchers.

I don't know if my medical insecurity will ever go away.

Originally posted by GreatTech
God bless mathematicians, medical researchers, and physicians.

I believe that mathematicians should also become medical researchers, and physicians, that medical researchers should also become mathematicians, and physicians, and that physicians should also become mathematicians, and medical researchers.

I don't know if my medical insecurity will ever go away.

Well, let's see...following your logic:

-A physician earning a combined M.D./Ph.D goes to 7-9 years of post-graduate school.
-This is followed by an average of 4 years of residency
-This is followed by an average 1-2 years of fellowship
-They would then have to go to another 4 years of post-graduate to become a mathematician

That would mean the average 23 year old entering medical student would have to expect another 16-18 years of education in order to meet your criteria, meaning the average entering doctor would be 39-41 years old, all the while not making enough money to support a family as they have been in school the entire time. Sounds kind of silly, if you ask me. Now, wouldn't it just make more sense to choose your doctors wisely or not make blanket discriminatory statements based on one or even a couple bad personal experiences?

~Mariella

Let me clarify. Not actually attend formal schooling in most cases, but for each profession each person can keenly think "inside" and "outside" the three professions so as to do his or her job better. Spare time research and thinking would suffice in most cases. A physician or medical researcher with high mathematical skills would perform better than one with moderate or low skills...

Originally posted by GreatTech
Let me clarify. Not actually attend formal schooling in most cases, but for each profession each person can keenly think "inside" and "outside" the three professions so as to do his or her job better. Spare time research and thinking would suffice in most cases. A physician or medical researcher with high mathematical skills would perform better than one with moderate or low skills...

Wel, considering all physicians are required to take at least calculus in undergrad, a semester of epidemiology stats in med school, and a semester of research biostatistics in med school, I would venture a guess and say that they are better mathematicians than 75% of the population. What specific mathematics are you referring to?

~Mariella

bsl4doc, check out

www.ams.org...

for the classification of all mathematics fields. Ideally, a physician or medical researcher should use every mathematics field that he or she can handle. I recommend a thorough combinatorics regimen in each medical school. I use it for each problem I try to solve.

Mod Edit: Fixed Link.

[edit on 7/5/2006 by Mirthful Me]

Your source doesn't explain what the fields are, per se, just what constitutes them. Can you explain this field of mathematics you feel I need?

~Mariella

Wel, considering all physicians are required to take at least calculus in undergrad, a semester of epidemiology stats in med school, and a semester of research biostatistics in med school, I would venture a guess and say that they are better mathematicians than 75% of the population. What specific mathematics are you referring to?

I'm confused. How does a semester of calculus and 2 semesters of statistics make physicians better mathematicians than 75% of the population? Do you have any sources to back up your claim? Thank you!!

A simple example of combinatorics is the following: a patient might need brain, heart, and/or liver treatment. Eight decisions need to be made: do we treat the brain, heart, and liver, or just the brain and heart, or just the brain and liver, or just the heart and liver, or just the brain, or just the heart, or just the liver, or none of the three? The number of possible decisions is created by the formula: 2^n. For two or more organ treatments, the formula is: (2^n) - n - 1. The order of treatment of three organs is created by the factorial formula of n!: there are 3 x 2 x 1 =6 orders of treatment.

Combinatorics can embody what we treat, what we treat with, the success of treatment, the nonsuccess of treatment, the risks of treatment...

This is only a very simple combinatorics example applied to medicine.

I understand combinations and permutations, GreatTech. I just don't see how those apply to medicine. In your example, in which a patient needs treatment for their brain, heart, and liver, why not just treat all three? Obviously, you treat conditions from most critical to less critical. I don't understand why you think combinatrics has anything to do with medical treatment. Can you explain a little better please?

Without combinatorics in some form, there would be no medical science or any other science. The science of combinatorics sets limits and ranges on the meanings of all words, letters, numbers, drawings, and diagrams we use. Unless we have an Infinite Mind, we can only partially comprehend the finite. Combinatorics is a finite science that tries to build to the Infinite.