Ideal Calibers?

The heck with caliber!!! Stick with a 5.56x45mm, but use Blended Metal! (Not a legal NATO round)

www.armedforcesjournal.com...

The harder the target, the harder the bullet, the softer the target, the more it fragments.

This contractor in Iraq that had been issued some of these to test in a possible live fire situation. Well, it was only a matter of time before he and some buddies came under fire from some insurgents and returned fire. One of the insurgents was hit in the lower buttocks. Hit with nearly any other type of round he would have been fine, or at the very worst lived. Well, this blended metal bullet literally exploded into thousands of fragments turning everything within 6-8” of so of the point of entry into mush including the guys lower abdomen. The guy died in moments. From a 5.56 wound in the butt!

My opinion?

Screw NATO, issue these in the 5.56 (smaller, lighter) and not worry about caliber.

I am always mildly amused by Americans argueing to "Screw NATO!"... dont forget, that whole institution is YOUR brainchild, as well as most of rules and the STANAGs

Anyway, who cares about that ONE widely circulated story of the blended metal bullet? Is this any proof of a generally better characteristic? Nope, its an isolated event (though its a good campfire story).

Kaiser Franz Ferdinand and his wife Sophie were each killed by a single 7.65mm pistol bullet. The reliable "One shot kill" of this and that Wunderweapon/bullet has ALWAYS been a myth. Some people were killed by one 9mm in the right place, others lived despite being hit by a 7.62mm NATO or .50 BMG.

The 5.56mm is PROVEN to be able to kill a man without much effort. Everyone who says that a weapon has to kill reliably with the first hit forgets how incredibly sturdy nature has made us mammals, and they also forget operational necessities. We´re still talking about an ARMY here, and not a police force. By all means, yes there should be a designated marksman with a higher powered rifle in a squad. But no, there is no reason to convert the whole infantry into a proto-SWAT just because they have to deal with a fanatised and reckless enemy right now.

The discussion about a caliber change can only be discussed on the basis of increased operational flexibility and - capability (which indeed make a strong case for the 6.5mm Grendel or 6.8mm SPC), not the fear of an enemy that might live a few moments longer. Too many other important variables have to be sacrificed to achieve a PROBABLE elimination of these few seconds.



[edit on 20/4/2006 by Lonestar24]

If the LM 5.56 is that impressive I would love to see a 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC LM round because I bet it would be all that much more phenomenal

Originally posted by warpboost
If the LM 5.56 is that impressive I would love to see a 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC LM round because I bet it would be all that much more phenomenal

Of course, but if the effect is enough either way, id rather carry the smaller bullet.

Imagine taking your target out of the fight with one shot regardless where hit them? This guy Thomas has first hand experience and flat out states that even a shot to the arm could easily keep somebody from being able to continue fighting. Heck, what else does one need?

And its safe for home defense as well, sheet rock can stop the round reducing the chance of hitting others in your home.

Originally posted by skippytjc
Imagine taking your target out of the fight with one shot regardless where hit them? This guy Thomas has first hand experience and flat out states that even a shot to the arm could easily keep somebody from being able to continue fighting. Heck, what else does one need?

RBCD ammunition is truly revolutionary when it comes to warfare, but Geneva conventions and “ULTRA” lethality (made up term I know) limit it’s future application, even if they could be fully implemented into our military their use should be limited to Spec ops, sniper/designated marksmen and mission specific on case by case, friendly fire with this ammunition is going to be a whole different story which is why I would be cautious of widespread military use much more than antiquated treaties and such, but that’s just my opinion.

as far as ideal caliber, 6.5 is the way to go, superior to 5.56 in short range and superior or comparable to 6.8 and 7.62 at long ranges, pretty much a no brainer if u ask me (logistically, militarily, economically) but taking care of certain defense contractors and their interest, well we know how that goes.....

Originally posted by skippytjc
...
Imagine taking your target out of the fight with one shot regardless where hit them? This guy Thomas has first hand experience and flat out states that even a shot to the arm could easily keep somebody from being able to continue fighting. Heck, what else does one need?...

Maybe the results of a trial done by experts and not the opinion of some random hired gun? I dont doubt that the man you quote knows his stuff about how to fight. But everyone who knows how the organism works can say that you CANNOT make such a statement.

...And its safe for home defense as well, sheet rock can stop the round reducing the chance of hitting others in your home.

Then that would be a big problem in a military context, because more than often you NEED the capability to punch through as much cover as possible. And thats why FMJ bullets are a good compromise.

There is also a 4.7 mm caseless round that was used in the H&K G11 assault rifle. The thing with this is that the round is longer because it is actually surrounded by the propellant. Therefore a rather powerful round.
Also there are no nasty empty cartridges left over.



[edit on 20-4-2006 by funny_pom]

my ideal combination is the new springfield m1a socom rifle, plus any one of taurus or colt's .357 mag revolvers. you can use the springfield for either cqb, or thousand yard ranges. plenty of power and accuracy in .308 winchester.

I have not read the articles of convention enacted at Geneva.

All I can tell you is I have always heard that and also heard that Snipers were against the articles as well.

The facts are, Marine Scout Snipers, (STA Plt) are currently one of the smallest, yet most effective units in the military and are issued Hollow Points.

In fact that was the only bullet allowed to pass through the barrel of the M40a1 when I was in.

Of course that was 21 years ago, heck they may carry lasers now.

Originally posted by skippytjc
The heck with caliber!!! Stick with a 5.56x45mm, but use Blended Metal! (Not a legal NATO round)

www.armedforcesjournal.com...

The harder the target, the harder the bullet, the softer the target, the more it fragments.

This contractor in Iraq that had been issued some of these to test in a possible live fire situation. Well, it was only a matter of time before he and some buddies came under fire from some insurgents and returned fire. One of the insurgents was hit in the lower buttocks. Hit with nearly any other type of round he would have been fine, or at the very worst lived. Well, this blended metal bullet literally exploded into thousands of fragments turning everything within 6-8” of so of the point of entry into mush including the guys lower abdomen. The guy died in moments. From a 5.56 wound in the butt!

My opinion?

Screw NATO, issue these in the 5.56 (smaller, lighter) and not worry about caliber.

I agree with this, those bullets seem to be more effective, so just use em I say. Besides, most countries disregard the Geneva Convention during times of war anyways, even the U.S. does, so I say, screw it, use the Blended metal rounds, they will save our troops, and thats all I care about.

Does anyone know how these Blended metal rounds actually work? Or do you have any info on materials used? or even just who makes them?

The .338LM rounds fired by the British L115A1 are not expanding. The weapon is used to fire ball, AP, API and tracer in the military role.

Expanding ammunition is against the Geneva convention as it is deemed to cause unnecessary suffering or damage to achieve its' aims. This is why there was a bit of an outcry in the early 80s about the 5.45 round fired by the AK74, as it was believed to be DESIGNED to tumble and break up on impact.

Originally posted by northwolf
Does anyone know how these Blended metal rounds actually work? Or do you have any info on materials used? or even just who makes them?

www.defensereview.com...

here's a link about blended metal (RBCD) ammunition with videos and background infomation.

I strongly dislike all of the rules of combat. If your going to kill a man use what ever means necessecary. Even if that means using a .40 bullet filled with cynaide. I wonder if thats even possible, Probally not.

Originally posted by Ford Farmer
SCREW THE RULES

I strongly dislike all of the rules of combat. If your going to kill a man use what ever means necessecary. Even if that means using a .40 bullet filled with cynaide. I wonder if thats even possible, Probally not.

Fine, screw the rules. But then be ready to accept:

- Genocide
- Torture
- Arbitrary executions
- no restrictions in harming civilians
- No restrictions on the use of NBC weaponry
- POVs suffering and dying in labor- and concentration camps
- complete destruction of whole nations
- weapons that create as much suffering as possible to demoralize the enemy
- "invisible" enemies because they dont wear uniforms

Do you still want to "screw the rules"?



[edit on 21/4/2006 by Lonestar24]

.40 cal syanide bullet shouludn be hard since KGB had 5.45mm poison pistol round...

as for the screw rules: that would be the end of your crusade for democrasy, since you would loose any of the respect and justification for your operations...

BMBs seem to be too good to be true, at least to a metallurg like myself, since i can't figure out the way it works...