It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by devilwasp
I am but on drop of bias in this sea of it...I do provide "bias" or an "opinion" but I do so in counter action to others...that way keeping a balance..
Well thank you for that assesment but frankly I dont really give a damm what you think.
Yet again you believe your more knowledgeable in ALL areas where we both know this is not true,
I may not have your experience but I have had training and have learnt things you have not.
You are trying to raise yourself above me and claim my "disagreements" as "youthful ignorance" , a simple yet regular tactic of yours.
Now whos insulting who, I asked you to clarify your position but since you havent I will take it the way its laid : As an insult to soldiers.
"Common people" ? Do you work for the BBC political division?
The common people where not as informed as you or I nowadays and it was beause of one parties unwillingness to act that caused this.
IF you think he was in lie with the enemy then go ahead....I'll know what paraniod delusions to believe.
"Your" leaders might have , "MY" leaders did nothing. ABOSOLUTELY NOTHING. They where used as a puppet until britain could be ready to go to war, a buffer between germany and russia.
You mean the fluke of the original plans falling into allied hands, no the plan drafted by General Erich von Manstein was no fluke.
They did believe it would be WW1 again because they believed the germans would outflank the magionet line via brussels again like in the schlieffen plan, hence why best units of the french army where sent along with the BEF to brussels border.
Oh is it? Your now an expert in the matters of her majesties parliment?
The entire establishment doesnt recieve all the information like the PM and the members of his cabinet, he alone makes the decsion on what to do.
He was no figure head, he was in command of the british government just because he was the leader of a party does not make him a figurehead.
I am not discussing america, I'm talking about europe and frankly thats not a pleasant government to live under and frankly I am not making them the only crazy group but they where one of the worst.
Yeah and how many of britain where willing to sacrifice stability and security, oh and asl yourself how many of those high living people in germany 1939 where jews?
Hitler was a complete maniac, he killed his entire family and had his best general shot for crying out loud.
Oh and the rest of your drivel you can quite frankly forget about....its not worth commenting on...if you think I'm arogant go ahead...ha the nazis would have accepted jews in the 30's...sure they would have!
They(chamberlin) thought germanyt was no threat so therefore took no action.
Coming from a man who thinks sharpnel can sink a nuclear aicraft carrier carrier....I will take your words with a hold full of salt.
Mabye you should do the same and not be hypocritical in this regard.
I know this subject if you think its overconfident then fair enough thats your opinion but in reality your being entirely hypocritical in critisising me.
Also another thing, you may have hid your mistakes in your youth by not writing them down so that it doesnt serve "as testament to your youthful ignorance" but I am diffrent, if I make a mistake in writing or in speech then I will accept that mistake.
I might drivel on for years and then find out I was wrong all along,
I will happily change my position once I find out its wrong but frankly if I believe otherwise I will know I stuck by my guns and done what I thought was right.
No matter what I look like in the end because after all, learn by your mistakes....dont sweep them under the rug.
Originally posted by StellarX
Repeating stuff right from text books
Well you should care what people think!
I am quite happy being specific and stating that i believe i know more than you on this general topic.
Do you understand that they aim to cram as much lies and deception into you in the shortest possible time thus making sure that 95% gets past without proper reflection in, at least the short and probably, the long term?
It's a regular tactic only when dealing with know-it-all 17 year old's who think that us old foolish people learnt absultely nothing 'new' or 'correct' in all that extra time we spent on the subject.
I clarified my statement beneath but i guess you never bothered figuring out my original statement well enough to make use of the clarification.
I read things called ' books' and they have these 'references' to their source material if their any good. In this case i am going with Len Deigthon's views( "Blood,tears and folly") on how Britons felt as that is also the impression i got from other reading.
Well they knew that war was probably unavoidable and prepared accordingly ( resignation in the case of Britons) while the policitions kept saying that they could arrange peace. Who got it right despite all the lies they were told and how much of an accident was that?
Well we can only go by the fact that he had a great deal of support in his delusion and that they all turned out to be completely wrong in thinking that Hitler was going to be stopped unless stopped by them.
Britain was far readier to win a war in 1936 ( Rhineland) than it was in 1939 ( Poland, when it just to reign in French actions in the Saar 'campaign') when it declare war with France to save a country that they could have better protected by Britain allying themselves with Russia ( however inconvenient and impractical that would have been). They were not serious about preventing war and thus a war happened.
The fact that it was used and that a earlier invasion of the low countries did not take place was what i was referring to.
The BEF they sent to France was completely mechanized and Britain built a bomber fleet ( however pathetic it turned out to be; another weird fact) with which to attack the enemy while holding a small sector in the Allied line and otherwise starving them by naval blockade. Britain was not planning on fighting the same war as that would result in casualties they knew they could not again take. In the end they took plenty due to other mistakes but it was not the intent imo.
I need to be to understand that Chamberlain was still more warmly welcomed the day after Churchill took office ( day after he resigned ; on the 12th of May) than Churchill was? All Chamberlain ever managed was to bring Britain closer to disaster and he still managed to be more popular among the mp's.
The people figured it out just reading the press so one has to start wondering how far better informed people could be deceived if they did not want to be.
Being leader of a party means that you have the support of your party at least to the extent that enough of them supported you over the next guy in line to the party crown. Facts is facts and he represented the majority as the voting will indicate if you cared to check.
Hitler was the most popular leader Germany had ever known and Germans had in in the years before the war the highest living standards in Europe.
If you kept your mouth shut, on the few subjects you had to, you would have done well as people living in such countries could tell you if you asked.
Germans on average were far happier people than Britons and that's just the facts of the matter whatever cruelties taking place in Germany.
Britons were sacrificing before the war even broke out and they continue to do so till this day.
He killed his entire family?
Had his best general shot?
How could they get out? The nazi's controlled the routes in and out, they stopped any jews getting out..
And if that was only true i could call him a complete moron but since he never thought that i give him credit for far more logical assumptions.
Oh he did not think that germany was a big enough threat to send the worlds largest navy to stop the germans?
You can spice it with whatever you like as long as your willing to include the facts/references/sources/opinions that have you thinking what you do. What have you in fact read beside school text books that has a certain requirement towards you getting points? Is that indoctrination or learning?
The facts refrences, sources and opinions that you have yet to provide about the sunburn sinking a nimitz carrier but hey just keep going on about rogue waves and mabye we'll belive you.
I have listened and learned an additional 8 years more than you have so you do not get to point fingers at me; that luxury is reserved for people who have the advantage of time over me.
So because your older you get to treat me as inferior, ok sure I'm ok with the whole "superiority" complex you seem to have but hey. Age means nothing when you waste it.
Do you really believe that at 17 you have had time for anything other than learning?
Do you not understand that time brings time for reflection that mere 'cramming' of facts can not result in?
I wouldnt call learning by hand "cramming" nor traveling the world "cramming".
I believe you are and i will criticise you for thinking yourself well enough informed to engage me so directly assuming that i never saw the text books you did.
Unless you went to the marine college at south tyneside I believe you have not.
Your assumption is basically that i skipped basic history education and just moved on to crazy conspiracy material.
No you didnt miss basic history, you just chose parts of it.
If you so wish i can recite all that propaganda you are so familiar with and tell you not only why i disagree with those 'facts' but what the likely motives are for each deception is.
Lol pot calling kettle when it comes to propaganda, who is right and who is wrong...thats not for us to decide..
Well i have pride and i do not like looking the ignorant fool so i set out to prepare myself before i engage in discussion.
Obviosly this is not so in the sunburn thread.
The same can simply not be said for you and you will have to suffer the consequences ( as you surely must have already) of your actions if you persist.
Persist to believe that I am right and not believe you...no sorry I will not lower myself to the standards you provide me. I set my standards and I live by them, pride is imeterial when learning...pride comes from doing...not from typing.
You will will go on as now
As now like proving that its impossible for a small missile to sink a massive warship?
How can you know what is 'right' at 17 when i am so unsure about so many things(specifically history) at 26?
Because I define what is right and wrong in my mind , if you are unsure what is right and wrong then I suggest you clarify your position before you engage in discussion.
Well learning is done by silently reading and occasionally asking for clarification and that is not what you are doing here imo .
Then you learned by watching, not doing.
In the end you do not know what my mistakes where but i will have yours on record to destroy your credibility at my leisure if i in the future chose to be vindictive or angry in general.
Making mistakes does not destroy your credibility, esspeciallyif you are able to accept them. Be vindictive and be be angry, I cant stop them and frankly it will show us more about you than I.
To sum up: Why not just learn from my mistakes instead of your own? Stick around but leave the picking sides( on at least this topic) for later.
Because I wont learn from your mistakes, I will learn from mine.
You made YOUR mistakes, only YOU will truely learn from them...but I will learn from mine more.
Seems like every week in the news a insurgent blows himself up in a crowd of people of innocent arabic people, but i have yet to see any of the anti-war crowd call them baby killers. Or Saddam gassing the kurds, I am sure some kids were killed during that also.
Yes, I realize that an apology has been rendered by Rich but the fact remains I donot appreciate my brother, myself, my sisters, father and uncles being called baby killers.
Originally posted by sbob
My question is this. Why are not countries in the Arab area asking the US if they can replace the US forces as a Peace keeping security force to help the Iraqis???? This would get the foreign fighters that don’t like US fighters home. The people that think the US want to own Iraq to think otherwise. Get the American troops home. This could bring some stability so reconstruction can begin, so Iraq can get out of this stalemate of death.
Originally posted by sbob
But my point was if everyone one wants the USA out Iraq, then why isn't the world stepping up to the plate with any ideas?
On top of that, does the US want a resurgence of fundamentalist islamic unity with clearly anty-US motives? Huh?
After the big battle of Fallujah. Many houses were destroyed. Most of them by the US forces. But some I bet by the other side. But the US gets all the blame. The US government will pay you back for the damage done.
oh, and if we're quoting the bible...try this one "judge not lest ye be judged"
Alot of the language in this post reminds me of segregation from the 50s. go back and substute "blacks" for "soldeirs" and see how some of you sound.
Or if you are afraid that you might have to murder civilians why dont you go to your nearest VFW and get to know a soldier personnally before you condem us.
yes...we ALL know that if we fire a round, it may miss its target and hit someone else. but to say we may HAVE to take an innocents life is plain ignorance and inflamatory.
if some kid comes running down the street at me unarmed and its obvious hes not wearing a bomb vest or some such...theres nothing that says i have to kill him. if he comes running at me with an ak47 adn wont put it down when warned to, he's not innocent.
i have to wonder if some of you have ANY idea what it is to be a soldier,
i mean really. find me ONE serviceman who's orders were to kill unarmed civillians and is willing to testify to it and maybe then ill give you some respect for your credibility. until then in my book some of you are just paranoid. ill stop short of using the term "whack jobs" because i dotn feel the need to start name calling.
"It's almost impossible to fight a war in which engagements occur in urban areas [and] to avoid civilian casualties," Sewall, whose center is a branch of Harvard's Kennedy School of Government that focuses on issues such as genocide, failed states and military intervention, said in a telephone interview.
"In a conflict like Iraq, where civilian perceptions are as important as the number of weapons caches destroyed, assessing the civilian harm must become a part of the battle damage assessment process if you're going to fight a smart war," she said.
"I wholeheartedly believe the vast majority of civilians are killed by the insurgency," particularly by improvised bombs, said Col. Michael Denning, the top air officer for the 2nd Marine Division, which is leading the fight against insurgents in Anbar province.
"We were told there were no friendly forces," said [Army Private Matt] Guckenheimer, an assistant gunner with the 10th Mountain Division at Fort Drum. "If there was anybody there, they were the enemy. We were told specifically that if there were women and children to kill them."
Here is a quote from a British security contractor in Iraq about his American counterparts: "I hate those bastards more than the scumbag insurgents." A British colonel recently returned from a tour in the country said that, in our next war, he would sooner fight alongside the Russians than the US.
This is another quote from a British security contractor: "The American way is not my way. I don't mind a scrap but I draw the line at mooning the enemy and inviting him to shoot at my backside, and that's virtually what the Yanks are doing. I'm also convinced that many Americans hate the Iraqis, not just the insurgents but all Iraqis… What a mess."
Those last lines are taken from a rather good new book about the experience of Iraq today, Highway To Hell, written by an ex-SAS man who signs himself John Geddes. My point in all the above, is to show that Ben Griffin, the former SAS soldier who vents his dismay about what is happening to Iraq in today's Sunday Telegraph, is not a lone voice.