Two ways to fix the U.S's problems (imo)

Ok. Now I'm going to catch a lot of flack for this, but this is my opinion of how we should solve a lot of America's problems. Is it "Politically Incorrect"? Yes. Will it fix some problems? Yes.


First, we need to reduce our national debt. We need to stop forgiving other country's debts! They pretty much just borrow from us what they want, and never pay us back, and we forgive their debts! We need to stop taking on the world's debt and making it our own.

Next we need to build a wall at the border with Mexico to stop Illegal Immigrants. For one, terrorists can get in there, for two, Illegal Immigrants use up a lot of money. We pay for thir kid's schooling, welfare for their kids, etc. I'm sorry but they shouldn't be in the country. They can get in the legal way if they want.

There's other stuff to do, but I feel that these are two big ones.

Originally posted by supergeo
Ok. Now I'm going to catch a lot of flack for this, but this is my opinion of how we should solve a lot of America's problems. Is it "Politically Incorrect"? Yes. Will it fix some problems? Yes.
way if they want.

Yep, you are going to catch a lot of flack for this; so put on your thinking cap and respond in a mature manner, not personal attacks.

Most of all listen with an open mind.

Good luck!!

Super: I hear you, but the problems seem to be less associated with current debt than with future debt and the aid we give.

Here's my ideas.

1) Refuse to provide aid to any country for any reason on a reoccurring basis. Provide matching contributions to the private contributions for specific events. A good example would be the Tsunami.

2) Do not sell our debt anymore and do not lend to other countries.

3) Remove government subsidies for any business that can't turn a buck. Do not bail out companies that can not pay pensions.

There must be a better way.

4) Remove the Federal Social Safety net. If the states want them, let them legislate, control, tax, and operate their own. Provide oversight for the taxpayers.

5) Eliminate Federal Income tax over time. Do not replace with anything, including the "FairTax". Bla.

6) Remove the minimum wage.


Just a small taste.

Originally posted by supergeo
Next we need to build a wall at the border with Mexico to stop Illegal Immigrants. For one, terrorists can get in there,

Let's be honest, that line is so laughable. Firstly, any domestic terrorists it can't stop. Secondly, if they desire to get into the United State's they do so legally and do not run the risk. If you remember September the 11th, many of them used fake IDs, etc...

Can you find one occassion when a terrorist in the U.S. snuck in through the border between them and Mexico?

Originally posted by Odium

Can you find one occassion when a terrorist in the U.S. snuck in through the border between them and Mexico?

If memory serves (it doesn't always, at this age) the only person of a terroristic nature that they have caught coming across one of our borders, was that guy with the explosives who tried to come in through Canada.

Imho, you simply cannot make a country "secure" enough to stop a truly determined adversary from penetrating our security. That certainly doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make ourselves as secure as we can; however...how many civil liberties are you willing to surrender to do it? Even if you turned this into a lockdown state, somebody will still find a way through. And who wants to live in a "security state"?

I know this isn't exactly the question you asked but, the idea that we can equate solutions to the illegal immigration from the south with a threat from foreign terrorism...it just isn't the same thing.

Illegal immigration is a problem, but the ones who are here illegally, and yet, still working on payroll, are paying taxes. They are going to make the emergency room of the local hospital their primary source of care, just like most uninsured legal folk do.

It is the folks who are here illegally and being paid "under the table" which are not contributing through taxes, but there are a lot of American's who do that, to greater or lesser degrees, also. I say go after the whole underground economy, that's gotta' be worth billions in revenue.

As far as things like southern fences go...I almost think you would have to hand border control over to the military. I served in an Armored Cav unit (3/2 ACR) patrolling a sector of the old Czech/West German border, back in the day. It would be hard to beat the Soviets for border security, from what I saw. Minefields, double fences, dogs, machinegun towers. People still got through, but rarely. On a purely economic basis, it would be expensive. Plus, it looks bad...

I say go after the good ol' legal folks who hire illegal immigrants. They wouldn't come here if they couldn't find work...

[edit on 4/10/2006 by apocalypticon]

Originally posted by supergeo
Ok. Now I'm going to catch a lot of flack for this, but this is my opinion of how we should solve a lot of America's problems. Is it "Politically Incorrect"? Yes. Will it fix some problems? Yes.


First, we need to reduce our national debt. [...]Next we need to build a wall at the border with Mexico

You want to reduce the debt, and have a huge spending project?

And, a wall? People will dig underit, climb over it, and......go around it.

For one, terrorists can get in there

Terrorists can also and have also crossed the American-Canadian Border, why no wall there?

Besides, most terrorists can just....enter the country any other way, likesay....all of the 911 hijackers.

Illegal Immigrants use up a lot of money.

On the other hand they also generate money by accepting low wages for jobs, and also permit people to have small businesses, like landscaping companies, and that sort of scale of business is an important part of the economy.

There's other stuff to do, but I feel that these are two big ones.

Those are the most important and urgent problems facing the US today??

1) Foreigners owning America’s debt is a good thing. As long as America offers a favorable risk/return ratio she will attract investors here and abroad.
2) America should throw out the existing tax code and adopt a simpler flat tax. This will never happen sadly, because there are too many interest vested in the existing tax code and they can marshal almost an unlimited amount political power.
3) America’s boarder must be made secure. Once this is done, we can establish a guest worker program. The Republicans are really playing with fire on this issue. Should America suffer another terrorist attack from people who gained entry in the America illegally via the Mexican boarder they will be out of power for a generation.

The republicans will just make it the fault of the democrats, which, in a sense, it woudl be because the democrats are backing the backlash against the immigration reform bills, and certainly aren't the ones suporting groups like the Minutemen, or calling for beefed up border security.

But in general I agree with your ideas, except that, once there is a sensible amount of security on both borders, we should just lift the immigration quotas. I mean, whats the sense of a quota? If a good background check can be done on a person, let em in no? Especially if, like irish and english immigrants, they speak english.

Originally posted by Nygdan

You want to reduce the debt, and have a huge spending project?

Well, from what I've read, every dollar we spend on reducing or stopping illegal immigration saves us $8. Reducing or stopping illegal immigration will ease costs of police, welfare, public schooling, etc.

Originally posted by Nygdan

And, a wall? People will dig underit, climb over it, and......go around it.

Not if we have some more border patrol agents.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Terrorists can also and have also crossed the American-Canadian Border, why no wall there?

Because, as you said, a wall is expensive. We have more people coming in through the southern border than the northern border, therefore the southern border needs a wall more. Like I said, these are only the two most important things to do, so they need done first.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Besides, most terrorists can just....enter the country any other way, likesay....all of the 911 hijackers.

Yes, they can, but stopping illegal immigration from Mexico would limit the ways terrorists can get in. Also, on the Mexican border, a terrorist could just walk over with a bomb. Other ways have more careful screening measures.

Originally posted by Nygdan

On the other hand they also generate money by accepting low wages for jobs, and also permit people to have small businesses, like landscaping companies, and that sort of scale of business is an important part of the economy.

But then most of them send some of their money back to Mexico, and that money is no longer in our economy. If they want to work here they can come here legally.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Those are the most important and urgent problems facing the US today??

Well, the illegal immigration one costs a lot of other problems. Lots of illegal immigrants could mean problems:

Overcrowding in schools
Welfare and medical costs soaring
Hospitals shutting down (hospitals are required to give free 'emergency' health care to any person coming in from Mexico. They are never re-imbursed, and eventually some of them can't afford to stay open)
Crime

And yes, the National Deficit is one of the most important problems. You can't run a country with no money!

Originally posted by supergeo

Originally posted by NygdanTerrorists can also and have also crossed the American-Canadian Border, why no wall there?

Because, as you said, a wall is expensive. We have more people coming in through the southern border than the northern border, therefore the southern border needs a wall more. Like I said, these are only the two most important things to do, so they need done first.

I'll get back to this thread after my daughter does her homework, but for now:

There are about a thousand places on the US/Canadian border where terrorists could just drive across, as long as they don't mind taking country backroads. The anti-terrorism issue can't be used to support a barrier along the "southern" border only.
And, let's face it, drug smugglers have been bringing stuff in by small craft along the Pacific Northwest coast for a long time. We know because sometimes they get busted. Terrorists can (and perhaps already have, who knows?) use this route also, if so inclined.

OK, kid wants computer so gotta' go...


[edit on 4/11/2006 by apocalypticon]

Originally posted by supergeo

Originally posted by Nygdan


Besides, most terrorists can just....enter the country any other way, likesay....all of the 911 hijackers.

Yes, they can, but stopping illegal immigration from Mexico would limit the ways terrorists can get in. Also, on the Mexican border, a terrorist could just walk over with a bomb. Other ways have more careful screening measures.

AAAAAAuuuugggghhhhh....the cry of the computer illiterate!!!

The above quotes are the ones I meant to address in my above post...sorry...

Originally posted by supergeo
Reducing or stopping illegal immigration will ease costs of police, welfare, public schooling, etc.

And it will cost the economy in terms of having to pay much higher wages for all the jobs that immigrants do, let alone a difficult to calculate cost of what effect that higher wage will have on business in general. Maybe peopel who can afford to pay illegals little can't stay in business if they have to pay a decent wage.
And, also, keep in mind, there is the cost of stopping new illegal immigration, and then the cost of removing the current illegals.

Also, if cost is a huge issue, why not just give amnesty out then? That'd make them legal, and put them on the tax roll.

We have more people coming in through the southern border than the northern border, therefore the southern border needs a wall more.

But we have far more terrorists coming in over the northern border. And, regardless of which one becomes the more secure border, its the other one that will be used. These terrorists aren't native to canada or mexico, they come in from other countries, and then enter the US. If the mexican border is secure, they'll use canada.
And, again, the border that has permited terrorists to cross over is the canadian one, not the mexican one, so it shoudl receive the priority.

Yes, they can, but stopping illegal immigration from Mexico would limit the ways terrorists can get in. Also, on the Mexican border, a terrorist could just walk over with a bomb.

Again, the same applies to the Canadian border, not to mention the canadian-alaskan border.

Essentially, we can't have a border that is secure against terrorists coming into the country. BUT, I agree, we can have a more secure border, in the south and the north, and we need it, and it will make things more difficult for terrorism.

In the south, the need for illegal immigration creates criminal syndicates that smuggle people across the border for a fee. These organizations will allways be able to throw more money at any border crossing operation than the US can throw at securing any particular patch of the border, and will, overall, allways be successful. The existence of these organizations thus represents a security threat, especially because of terrorism, they make it even easier for terrorists to get in. And because they are also criminal operations, that engage in other illicit activities, like drug running, and are powerful because of their human smuggling operations. These organizations, along with terrorism in general, are the real security threat, and they only exist because of illegal immigration. Illegal immigration exists because its difficult to enter the US, for a perfectly legitimate mexican citizen without a criminal background and with good and useful job skills, its difficult to become a US citizen. This creates illegal immigration, which creates organized crime on the border, and which also creates a drain on the US economy in terms of them not paying taxes, but using public services.
So if we want that to stop, the most efficient way to stop it is to have a much more open immigration policy, and make it easier for these people to become US citizens.

The northern border is a different situation, and it requires a different solution. There, we have smuggling through native american tribes, who's reservations straddle the border, and who are able to slip back and forth with ease. They are organizing into larger criminal operations, and, insidiously, hooking up with mexican gangs that are already engaged in south border drug and human smuggling. So for the northern border, there is actually a need for greater law enforcement, while more lax immigration policies for the populations crossing the south border will also make the north border stronger by weakining these outside gangs that the indian tribes are working with.

But then most of them send some of their money back to Mexico, and that money is no longer in our economy.

That has nothing to do with being an illegal immigrant.

And yes, the National Deficit is one of the most important problems.

Then a looser immigration policy will allow the market to be stronger, because with less interference and less hinderances on movements of people, prices and wages should adjust to their proper levels.

[edit on 12-4-2006 by Nygdan]

Serious terrorists would never be deterred by a wall. Not as long as there are boats and small planes.

Originally posted by supergeo

Well, from what I've read, every dollar we spend on reducing or stopping illegal immigration saves us $8. Reducing or stopping illegal immigration will ease costs of police, welfare, public schooling, etc.

I have no doubt that those who work "under the table" place a dangerous strain on the social system..Anyone who works on payroll pays taxes...
It would be good to see a link to your statistics.

Also, coming here legally versus illegally won't make any difference in how much money they send home, especially if we are talking about payroll workers. Their interest, one way or another, is still often aimed at supporting something back in Mexico; whether it's family, building a house, whatever.

For those who want to become permanent citizens I suppose it might be different.
But, we seem to want their labor, while not wanting to allow their citizenship.

I do believe in secure borders, and I realize we are dealing with a massive, unregulated influx of people at a difficult time in our history, what with the security issues of the War on Terror, as well as the pressures descending on our social systems by the retiring Boomer Generation.

But there is something about this whole argument in the broader sense that has an aire of good ol' American Nativism that disturbs me. Nativism isn't anything new to our country (or others) but it is often associated with some pretty undesireable results.

Seems like we need to be very careful to accurately define what the issues are, and be sure wer're not confusing or conflating them with other issues which are matters for a different national discussion.

Texas may have a solution for there border problem, something about installing ALOT of cameras, read up on it for yourself! enjoy! www.governor.state.tx.us...

if the link doesnt work ill look for it on cnn again, thats where i found it in the first place

EDIT: oh might i add, the cameras will be hooked up in such a way that we can watch them at home on our own computers

[edit on 5-6-2006 by SIOFundialed]

Cameras will not help. A big wall will not help. Troops on the border will not help.

As long as you can still legally enter the United State's from another Nation, you can just pay for it and then vanish. You legally enter, you just never leave. :O

My good friend Ida, from New Brunswick, but now working in Korea (the south part) on an Exxon oil well drilling rig - she doesn’t know where it is bound for - sent me the following solution.

Dig a moat along the American-Mexican border. Send the dirt to New Orleans to remake the levees. Fill the moat with alligators from Florida.

posted by ElTiante
2) America should throw out the existing tax code and adopt a simpler flat tax. This will never happen because vested interests can marshal almost unlimited political power.
3) America’s border must be made secure. [Edited by Don W]

On the flat tax.
Once the number “17" was bandied about. But even the cruelest conservatives acknowledged that would be too much for the common man or woman to pay. So, usually they stuck in an exemption often of $25,000 income before the tax would apply. On an income of $50,000, that would have the effect of lowering the tax rate to 8.5%. Oops, you have at least two “brackets.” The flat tax is not so flat after all?

The first Reagan tax cut provided a two tier tax bracket. The highest was 28%. I do not recall the lower rate. This tax cut suffered the same fate the current tax cuts will suffer when people driven by reason and not by ideology prevail, they will be repealed. The country needs more revenue, to put it in plain English. It is not wise to borrow all the more when you do not need to borrow.

It is no accident that the “graduated” income tax brackets have worked not only so well - review the 1945-1980 period - but also just “seem” to be fair in that asking the better off to pay more is “just” in some sort of remote way. The more you make (or have) the more you pay. Democracy in action!


On the secure border.
I am poor. I do not hire illegal workers. Only rich people hire illegal workers. The R&Fs - rich and famous - control America. This seems to be a non-issue to me. If those in power and control won’t stop this practice, then how can us who neither hire illegals nor make the laws do anything about it. Is this just a sham put on us for some ulterior motive? Like I mean, to distract us from poor health care? Or a failed policy in Iraq? Or the botching of Katrina? Hmm? As one very famous character used to ask, “What’s up doc?”

First, though, let me respond to SuperEgo

posted by supergeo

(1)We need to stop forgiving other country's debts! They pretty much just borrow from us what they want, and never pay us back, and we forgive their debts! We need to stop taking on the world's debt and making it our own. (2) Next we need to build a wall at the border with Mexico to stop Illegal Immigrants. They can get in the legal way if they want. [Edited by Don W]

(1) First, S/E, you tell me, where does that urban legend get started? I admit I haven’t Googled that issue for years. I hate to be blunt about it, S/E, but America is a cheap ass country that gives nothing away. When I was a kid, it was the legend that only Finland repaid its WW1 debt. Part true, part not. Finland did indeed repay its WW1 debt, smallish and early. But so did the other countries until WW2 began. It is my understanding that all countries have repaid their debts to the US, except the Soviet Union. That was discussed a lot in the 1950s, but the Ruskies said “jam it.” Diplomatically, of course.

There is some current talk of “forgiving” some African debt that should not have been incurred in the first place. Debt as used by the IMF and WB is more a control mechanism than a loan. The money should have been grants, not loans. But, what no one wants to discuss is the loans were made with full knowledge the rulers of those countries would pocket the money, but also, for their part of the ungodly bargain, the rulers would permit the West to continue whatever nefarious doings they were already engaged in or about to begin. Just how insidious can you be, to give a bribe to the rich and then to assess the poor to re-pay? And have the gall to call it “monetary policy?” Sweet Jesus, if you ever do come back, I hope you assign those devils to the 7th level of Hell. But as in the Soviet Union above, this too is another issue that deserves it own post. Or thread.

(2) Wall building is a public admission of failed policies. I do not want to live in a country surrounded by walls. Yes, I was alive and well when the Berlin Wall was constructed. I was not alive and well when China's Great Wall was constructed, though. So I regard myself - along with millions of others - as having some relevant observations to offer on walls. First, they don’t work. Second, they keep people in as well as out. Third, if we do build a wall, why not go all the way and hire old retired East German Vopos to man the wall and add a “free fire” zone?


Now to the Flat Tax.
Any tax worthy of the name should raise enough revenue to run the country in the style in which the tax assessors think is necessary or appropriate. Not the tax payers, but the tax levy-ers. The current US budget is $2.75 T. Not counting Afghan and Iraq. The current tax scheme brings in about $2.25 T. We happily borrow the rest from a willing world. The largest lender is China. Followed by Japan. How long this can go on is anybody’s guess. China may become miffed enough over Taiwan to stop buying US paper. It is not clear who can pick up the slack. But hey, our own prez worries not about the fine details. He is a risk taker. Just ask him.

America’s wage base is taxed 15.3%, up to about $80,000 per wage earner. That tax is still producing a surplus over payout. To match the baby-boomers needs may require upping the $80K to $120K and bumping the tax rate to 18.4% over time.

Of the US budget, only about $900 billion is found in the “discretionary” spending category. I am not sure if debt service is included in the $900 B. It may not be considered “discretionary” and therefore not be included, but it is not otherwise funded as opposed to the SS and Medicare trusts which fund those entitlements. Whatever size the flat tax is, it should be large enough to cover that much ($900 B) and maybe, as you suggested, we should start some long term plan to pay down the national debt. Those are my thoughts on a flat tax.

Keep in mind the last time the flat tax was brought out for public scrutiny, it was admitted by its advocates a sizeable exemption would have to be allowed to lower income persons. The number quoted was the first $25,000 would be exempted. Although not discussed, this has the effect of creating its own bracket system. A $50,000 income would make the tax effectively 8.5%. A $75,000 income would raise the effective tax to 11.3%. The $100.000 wage earner would pay an effective tax of 12.8 and so on as you approach the semi-sacred 17%. An infinite number of brackets in a tax offered a as a single bracket tax. Hmm? Did we really change the system or is this just another (disguised) tax cut for the rich and famous?


Post Script.
If you look at the numbers, you can see the 15.3% is producing twice the revenue of the current system. This is because every one who has income pays this tax. The current top bracket - 34% - produces very little revenue. It is only possible to continue the already “flat tax” at the 15.3% rate because employers are assessed 50% of the tax. Ask any struggling small business person why he cheats on his taxes and he’ll point to the SE form. I have experience in this area and I can tell you 99.44% of SE filers cheat. It’s the only way.


[edit on 6/6/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite

My good friend Ida, from New Brunswick, but now working in Korea (the south part) on an Exxon oil well drilling rig - she doesn’t know where it is bound for - sent me the following solution.

Dig a moat along the American-Mexican border. Send the dirt to New Orleans to remake the levees. Fill the moat with alligators from Florida.

I like the way you think my friend.