How long will America last

The other argument "How old is the American Empire" or whatever; which deals with this same issue; is full of stupidity and errors. So I refuse to post a well thought-out post in the same thread as such garbage.

The premiss is always "Empires fall; so how much longer does the American Empire have?"

But the real question is how much longer will America remain America?

Britain is Britain; it has been since unification in the 1600s, her Empire rose then and fell in the early 1900s with a finale in 1950s and 60s.

But Britain is still Britain (though much less).

Though the US is not an Empire; it is if you want to construe the definition.

If it is "defined as an Empire" then it is different from all other Empires in the world.

It is a "wealth generating Empire; not a wealth squandering Empire" as Robert Dujjaric(?) said.

The US creates wealth in all the nations it "touches". Even in Iraq; which is more wealthy now than it was during Saddam when it was isolated from the world economy...though the Media wouldn't let you realize this.

If that "Empire" fell do you really think that the US would be gone? Most likely not.

The Soviet Union is gone because it never began as its own nation; it inherited the Russian Empire and when it lost that Empire; a new caste of Russians took over the Empire and made the "CIS" from it.

The US survived as a nation before being "global" and so if it lost global power it will always still have the history of being a nation to survive.

The true end is when no one identifies with the nation any more...just as no one is "Roman" any more...what are your theories on how soon that time is approaching for America?

[edit on 13-3-2006 by Stratrf_Rus]

Originally posted by Stratrf_Rus
The other argument "How old is the American Empire" or whatever; which deals with this same issue; is full of stupidity and errors. So I refuse to post a well thought-out post in the same thread as such garbage.

I gotta tell you, your approach to getting members to add their thoughts needs a little work. Not to mention, you've managed to attract mod attention. :shk:

[edit on 13-3-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

The one difference between those other nations/empires and us is that our citizens can vote. Voting makes the difference! Every 4 years we have a bloodless revolution. If one doesn't like the way our nation is drifting, one can vote.
One can also say that our representatives for whom we've voted can impeach, if it is so deemed.
Democracy is not just some fanciful illusion to be manipulated, as Ronald Reagan's advisors succeeded in having us believe and Bush is currently wanting us to believe. Our forefathers fought for democracy, a reality to them, not an illusion.

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
I gotta tell you, your approach to getting members to add their thoughts needs a little work. Not to mention, you've managed to attract mod attention.

I have no interest in hearing people argue that the United States is an Empire comparable to Britain or even the Soviet Union; and I especially have no interest in dragging the dirt of ignorance involving US Soft power and hard power and US popularity in the rest of the world (it's much better than the medias would like to portray) into this thread.

So if my introduction keeps them out...most excellent.

Mod Edit: Quoting Etiquette – Please Review This Link.



[edit on 14-3-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

"The US survived as a nation before being "global" and so if it lost global power it will always still have the history of being a nation to survive.

The true end is when no one identifies with the nation any more...just as no one is "Roman" any more...what are your theories on how soon that time is approaching for America?"

Sorry for mangling the way the above quote looks. I think I know what I did wrong but don't know how to correct it. And I'm getting way too tired! Time to sign off!


What worries me is that there are people who believe that we will not survive if we lose our "global power". Is this why we are in Iraq? I love my country, but I find it hard to believe what good we have done by spending billions for Iraq. We are there supposedly to keep our way of life, which I finally heard someone on tv (a general I believe) say is oil. (Remember Bush senior had trouble telling Americans why we had to defend Kuwait--jobs, economy, oh hell oil.) This "way of life" is another use of illusion for manipulation--what does way of life mean? It means whatever each person says it means.

Apparently we can still have "global power", if that means that Uncle Sam has pimped Miss Liberty to the highest foreign bidder.

You know, we used to have World Fairs. Why do we no longer have them, because American business has gone international, and it is no longer fashionable to be an "American" company. So I guess we have met the enemy (of being American) and it is us.

Rome went out to conquer other peoples to be great. We, on the other hand, have had other people's want to come here to be great. People can always identify with being American; it's just what do we want to call ourselves or become. We have voting, we have freedom (less every day?)--this is what we must preserve.

[edit on 14-3-2006 by desert]

mod edit, fixed it, you needed [quote] at the beginning

[edit on 14-3-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

Uh, the US is the greatest empire in the whole world and in its history although it may not be the longest lasting nor the most imperical. Nonetheless, the US has a presence in every land and principality in the world that is either: political, economic and or military based.

Excepting the rather imperialistic nature of Egypt, or Greece, or Rome or even Britain (Spain and so many more...), no country has ever been as powerful in any of those areas let alone all of them.

I sometimes think that the greatest problem with the US is that as you suggest it is a 'soft power' which allows so much dissention and criticism from everyone else. In the end they say that democracy and freedom leads to totalitarianism, I hope this is not so but sadly I see few in the wings that would adopt the style of the US.

The only place that has that potential is Japan since I do not see the unity in Europe to become a superpower despite all the PR claiming they are the new heirs to the title.

The other argument "How old is the American Empire" or whatever; which deals with this same issue; is full of stupidity and errors. So I refuse to post a well thought-out post in the same thread as such garbage.

You didn't post one here, either.

The premiss is always "Empires fall; so how much longer does the American Empire have?"

But the real question is how much longer will America remain America?

I'll get to that in a minute.

Though the US is not an Empire; it is if you want to construe the definition.

If it is "defined as an Empire" then it is different from all other Empires in the world.

It is a "wealth generating Empire; not a wealth squandering Empire" as Robert Dujjaric(?) said.

The US creates wealth in all the nations it "touches".

First: that is not true.

Second: the U.S. is not the only empire that has created net wealth in SOME (not "all") of its dominated territories; in fact, all empires do.

Third: the creation of wealth in dominated territories is a consequence of most of those territories being primitive compared to the dominant power. By developing resources that the dominated territory had not managed to develop for themselves, certainly wealth is created. However, the lion's share of the wealth produced is seized by the ruling elite of the dominant power. Normally, a small kickback is afforded to a ruling elite in the dominated territory, and from time to time a small crust of bread may be thrown to the common people of the dominant power to prevent them becoming too restive. The fact remains that the common people of both the dominated territory and the dominant power end up poorer than they would have been if the dominated country had developed its resources itself.

Even in Iraq; which is more wealthy now than it was during Saddam when it was isolated from the world economy...though the Media wouldn't let you realize this.

This is false. The Iraqi economy has not yet recovered from the destruction of the war. More Iraqis today are without electricity and running water than they were before the invasion. The unemployment rate is worse now than it was before. The level of public safety is far, far worse.

However, this is not (yet) due to American plundering. It's due to the fact that Iraq is a recently-conquered province in a state of unrest. If American dominance of Iraq continues, which at the moment seems unlikely, then perhaps Iraq will begin to suffer from American plundering rather than from the war itself.

The US survived as a nation before being "global" and so if it lost global power it will always still have the history of being a nation to survive.

The true end is when no one identifies with the nation any more...just as no one is "Roman" any more...what are your theories on how soon that time is approaching for America?

Good question. Perhaps a better one, though, is when we will reach a point when America no longer is America, even if some nation exists which still bears the name. I'm reminded of a passage from Robert Graves' I, Claudius, in which Claudius, asking about the future of Rome, receives the following prophecy:

Who groans beneath the Punic curse
And strangles in the strings of purse
Before she mends must sicken worse.
Her living mouth shall breed blue flies,
And maggots creep about her eyes.
No man shall mark the day she dies.

The reference here is to the end of the Republic, without which Rome was no longer Rome. Much more so than Rome, America is a nation founded upon an ideal, an ideal of freedom, of government in service to the people. It seems to me that we came the closest to achieving that ideal in the 1970s, and have retreated from it since. Whether we will retreat all the way remains to be seen, but I do not believe that our democracy is compatible with our status as a superpower. Currently we are in crisis, and a decision must be made. One of the two will be abandoned. If we abandon our democracy rather than our superpower status, then America will have ceased to exist, even though no man may mark the day she dies.

I have no interest in hearing people argue that the United States is an Empire comparable to Britain or even the Soviet Union; and I especially have no interest in dragging the dirt of ignorance involving US Soft power and hard power and US popularity in the rest of the world (it's much better than the medias would like to portray) into this thread.

So if my introduction keeps them out...most excellent.

Dream on.