Holland to allow ‘baby euthanasia’

Originally posted by torbjon
So, if I’m reading you correctly (snip) Allowing someone to die of ‘natural’ causes is okay… but assisting them in the death process is not okay, is that it?

Yes, that is (nearly) correct. That is MY opinion on things. That is how I feel right now, right here about my family-that causing death for one of my children is not an option for me, and shouldn't be for any parent. However assisting them as they die is still an option. What I mean is it doesn't mean they need suffer needlessly either.

What I mean is they should be made as comfortable as possible-even morphined into oblivion if necessary. Aided as they die, but not intentionally killed as a decision and action to immediately end their life.

Originally posted by torbjon
Again, what other people want/need to do with their lives and their families is up to them (as long as it doesn’t directly mess with me and mine) I don’t care what others do or think or believe… personally I’m Glad we are all different.

But when it comes to me and mine, well, I have Very strong feelings and opinions about the subject…

Death has always been an option in my philosophy… perhaps not the Best option, or the Wisest option, or the Brightest option, or the most moral, ethical or spiritual option…

But it is a very Real option.

That is where we agree and disagree. What other people do and do not do with their children family (aside from abuse obviously) is their business and what I do with my is mine.

Know this-I would never judge another person for their choices. It is NOT my place.

I do not believe abortion is the right choice either, for example, but I believe every woman has the right to make her own decisions and choices when it comes to her body and her unborn child's life, and so I would never judge a woman for making the choice to have an abortion. I might counsel her against it, I may help her explore her other choices, but not judge her for her decision.

I just do not think euthanasia should be an acceptable, or legal option. Not because I am inhumane and want many babies to suffer, but because I think abuse of the option of euthanasia would occur, and because I do believe it is wrong to take life.

However concerning the parents of this baby in Hollland, though I view it as a tradgedy and travisty, I do not judge them personally. Though, I do have spiritual/religious views where I do believe they will be judged for their decision/actions and they, like we all are, are accountable for all we do and say in this life.

Originally posted by torbjon
If my daughter were in agony, I was led to believe that her illness/injuries were fatal and that she would be dead soon, and some bozo told me that the Only option available to me was to allow her to die in agony of ‘natural’ causes, I would Have to say no, there Are other options, and take matters into my own hands (and face the consequences of my actions)

I think because of the great benefit of modern medicine we have many options for pain control so dying of 'natural' causes doesn't have to mean suffering and dying in pain.

Originally posted by torbjon
Does this mean I would opt for euthanasia for my daughter? *laughs* Doubtful. I hope I’m never put into that situation. What I would probably do is hold her hand through the whole agonizing process and pray to a god I don’t believe in for a miracle, is what I would probably do… but the Option of reaching out with my own hands and taking control of the situation IS available to me, no matter what society may think of that…

Of course it is an option for you to take control of the situation and end your child's life...that isn't contested. We all have free will in life, no one can take that away from us. So we all have the option of killing the person who molested us, or our children, or who got the position we wanted, or the object of our affection, or ran over our dog, or looked at us funny on the subway....

Just look at the people who snap or are just psycho and take things into their own hands all the time every day. We ALL have free will and the option to end sometone's life-but it doesn't mean it's right, acceptable or OK, or legal, just that the option is available to us.

Originally posted by torbjon
Then the question becomes one of consequences… what price must I pay for my choices, my actions, and my freedom? (what price must everybody pay, for that matter, you included)

I think indeed a price must be exacted. Both physically by the law of the land and spiritually by the laws of the universe. The balance on the scale of justice, even universal justice, says "live and let live" and even "live and let die" I simply do not think or believe it is set up to balance the philosophy of "live and kill another."

I believe there will have to be some type of recompense to be made by those who have tipped the scales by using their free will to end another's life-no matter what the method or motivation....be it mercy or vengence. Perhaps there are degrees, and mercy is a lesser degree, but still there is unbalance of the scales I believe.

Originally posted by torbjon
IF I find myself in the above-mentioned horrible scenario and I should happen to choose the Death option for my daughter, what should happen to me and why? Should I be allowed to walk away Scott free? Should I be strung up by my thumbs and slowly tortured to death? Both consequences are perfectly acceptable to me, but it’s the ‘and why?’ part that I am most interested in…

Interesting question. I think if you break a law you are subject to have to answer that law. I also would have to take into consideration, say if I were on a jury given the task to judge your actions and aid in sentancing you, the method and motive.

For instance, if you smothered your ill child with a pillow because you couldn't afford their care vs you allowed enough morphine to be given to cause respiratory depression because you couldn't stand to watch your child suffer another moment...then I'd say I'd allow more leniency for the latter-though many would argue murder is murder, I do see shades of gray.

Remember, I would not judege a person for their actions unless I, by law, was called to serve to do so-then I would judge according to the law AND the dictates of my own conscience.

Let God and the universe dole out their own justice, and let man dole out justice according to the law of the land. If you are tried and found guilty you would have to take your punishment. Likewise, you will have to answer more existential laws in MHO.

Originally posted by torbjon
The money thing is also a very real issue and deserves to be discussed realistically. Economics is not a very spiritual subject, but it is a reality that has an impact on all of us no matter what society we live in.

When my kid was four weeks old she spiked a high fever. I called her pediatrician and she said take her to the emergency room right away. (snip) Long story short, she had a bladder infection (snip) one of the better hospitals in New York City, not some Podunk hospital, not some clinic, but a state of the art facility with alla the groovy gadgets that go Bing.

Cost of one very mundane very normal very average bladder infection? $30,000. ( and worth every penny of that to me)

Thirty grand and a Lot of hospital personnel tied up for a pretty normal non-fatal condition. That’s a very real cost and that cost is a very real issue.

Sorry, thats a non-issue for me and I honestly don't see how it's an issue for anyone-any parent. Cost? I would not prematurely end my child's life because of the monetary cost of aiding them to have a pain free, or decreased demise or trying to keep them alive (if it was viable to do so)

Originally posted by torbjon
And this raises yet another very real issue. Suppose my kid had been terminal, no chance of surviving more than a week or two, and I opted to have her plugged into alla those machines, and have all of that hospital staff waiting on her hand and foot for the entire two weeks so she could die a ‘natural’ death, (which is my right as a parent, right?) and now You come in, and your kid has a very normal, very mundane bladder infection and is Not terminal but Really Needs those machines and those personnel in order to survive, but you can’t have them because I got there first with my kid. You go to the next hospital, but the same thing is going on there, so you go to the next one, and the next one, and so on… and now your kid dies from lack of medical equipment and personnel, and shortly thereafter my kid dies from the terminal whatever…

Who’s the bad guy in That scenario?

No one is the bad guy in that scenereo though it is tragic isn't it?

I'd say the bad guy in that situation would be if there is a person that believes or insists or tries to tell the parent(s) of the ailing child who is dying that they do NOT have the right to aid their child in their demise by making them comfortable and pain free while awaiting what enevitably must happen, but should deny their child that comfort and those efforts since their child is going to die anyway, thus shouldn't have the same right to proper medical care as more healthy, non-terminal children, but should instead just be put immediately to death.

Or be denied medical care, forced to die an excruitiatingly painful death, so that another child, who is more likely to live, can get proper care in their place. :shk: no. It is a tragic scenereo indeed, but it does not make a case for euthanasia to me.

Originally posted by torbjon
Wouldn’t it have perhaps been ‘better’ if I had just said ‘ya know what? pull the plug, we tried, it ain’t workin’, give those people a chance, they need this stuff more than we do…’??

Depends on the scenereo and the equipment needed. If it is a case where someone is already braindead, kept alive by machines, etc that is much different as I have said, to allow them to die naturally-unplug them as it were- much different than taking a conscious, living baby or child and killing them-euthanizing them due to cost , convenience, or any other reason such as life expectancy or quality of life as estimated by others.

Originally posted by torbjonBoth my mother and step-mother were nurses, and, later in their careers, hospital administrators. NOTHING ticked them off more than having to turn away patients they could save because the hospital didn’t have the staff, equipment, or bed space to take care of them because said stuff was tied up with terminals that the hospital Couldn’t save (but couldn’t pull the plug on because that is ‘wrong’)

That is likely where you get your personal bias from and I understand. Agan, unplugging someone, and allowing them to die, or choosing not to resuscitate or take invasive measures to save is VERY differrent in MHO than killing someone, taking life intentionally from them, euthaniasia.

Originally posted by torbjonIt’s a very frustrating situation. I Don’t have the answers for what you or anybody else ‘should’ do in this frustrating situation… basically hope and pray we’re never in it *shrugs* it’s not a lot but it’s something, ya know?

Hope and pray to that God you don't believe in?

No, I hear you, and I agree wholeheartedly.

I honestly hope and pray I will never have to make life and death decisions about my child and this is on my mind alot right now as I will soon be facing my 2 1/2 yr old son going under general anesthesia for surgery. HIs preoperative appointment is next week.

This scares me mostly because I actually knew someone who's son had 'routine surgery' at 2 years old and the surgery went perfectly, but the sweet boy just never awoke. After about 2 weeks the parents made the decision to take him off life support and he died, naturally, in his mother's arms...the description of him, wrapped in his blue blanket drawing his last breath and the heartache his parents knew stays with me vividly, especially now as I face my son going under general anesthesia as well. I am petrified to be honest. It at this point is my worst nightmare.

Originally posted by torbjonI sincerely doubt there’s a ‘right’ course of action that everybody can agree upon… I tend to lean towards ‘to each his own’, ‘you do it your way, I’ll do it my way’ kinda thing… personally I think that philosophy should work for everybody… but it doesn’t. Some folks seem to think they just know better, ya know?

It's true, when it comes down to it, that is my philosophy basically too-to each their own. However, as is the case with abortion etc as well, I still have an opinion and feel I would be remiss if I didn't share it, help people realize there are options, and there are consequences to our actions. Not pushing my spiritual beliefs, but sharing them, not judgeing others, but hoping to expand their thinking/feeling, wanting to make people aware it's not all about religious or non religious POV's that there are universal truths and also mental, psychological truths people should be aware of when making decisions of a moral nature-it can come back to bite one in the bum is all, and people should know that.

oh and on a side note-re:

Originally posted by torbjon(I gotta say right here, that I greatly appreciated that pediatrician, I asked, she Advised, and that was the end of that, no thought police, church police, gov’ment police, hospital police came and broke down my door and took my kid away from me, the Choice to take her to the emergency room was Mine and Mine alone… I Really Appreciated that)

I can't imagine why you'd think it would be any other way? What else could your pediatrition say? No you can't go to the ER? Or that you'd have to get a note from your doctor in the morning? I'm not making fun of you-it was scarey I am sure, but I guess I just can't imagine fearing wondering expecting anything else. I can call a pediatritian any time 24/7 and take their advice or not, and same with going to the ER.

Boy, no one better try to tell me what I could and could not do with my child! When my son was 2weeks old he was so jaundiced they wanted to hospitalize him right then and there...I refused and they said it was a must, and that it was proper protocol for the situation to admit him immediately... and I was like our newborn baby in the sick wing of a hospital where he could be exposed to something else? Not going to happen people!!

So, they made a few calls and got people out on a Saturday to deliever equipment to my home where he could be wrapped in lights 24/7. He was fine-AT HOME though we had to take him into the lab every morning for blood work-that was fine with me-doing it my way. What a great staff to aid me in that-come to find out-they agreed and as parents wouldn't want to hospitilaize their tiny baby either.

Thanks for the discussion.


[edit on 24-4-2006 by think2much]

[edit on 24-4-2006 by think2much]