Freemasonry=Road paved with good intentions going to hell! :)

Ok.. time for me to focus on this thread since I guess I'm the one who started it.

First, let me start with this.. Magestica, you most eloquently said this:

If I am a young/old man who believes in Jesus Christ and I follow the word of our Lord the best I can in this day and age(as I know it isn't always easy) then WHY..why would I allow or even desire myself to be initiated into a group that on one hand uses parts of my belief system to have me as part of their group and on another denies claims that they are a religious sect/group. It doesn't make sense and it doesn't add up.

Spot on.

Masonic Light responded:

Here I would have to agree with African inasmuch as you wouldn't be expected to fully understand the fraternity because you would have had no personal experience with it. To begin with, Freemasonry was founded by Christians, so of course, its Christian past can easily be seen in many of its symbols and rituals. On the other hand, during the Enlightenment, some of the guys in the fraternity got the crazy idea that it was wrong to discriminate against people because of their religious beliefs, and for the first time, non-Christians were allowed. This continues to be the basis of some Christians' criticism of Masonry. However, if Masonry decided tomorrow to admit only Christians, forbidding Jews and others because of their religious beliefs, I would resign immediately, and gladly wash my hands of such a bigoted institution.

Ok.. Messy..

Fist, let me throw some scripture at you:

Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there IS NO GOD ELSE BESIDE ME; a JUST God and a SAVIOUR; there is NONE BESIDE me.

With that in mind:

Source: www.trosch.org...

The Bible of the Christian is merely one of the "holy books" of man, no better than the Koran, the Hindu scriptures or the books of the Chinese and Greek philosophers.

Source: www.gl-mi.org...

Faith:
When they find good in every faith that helps any man to lay hold of divine things and sees majestic meanings in life, WHATEVER THE NAME OF THAT FAITH MAY BE.

If you are a true Christian you can 'see' what's really going on here. In Freemasonry, you can have any ol' holy book sitting on the 'altar'.. (Wait a minute, I thought Freemasonry was NOT a religion)

Further breaking down what MS said:


What true Christian in their right mind would want to have a 'personal experience' with Freemasonry after 'seeing' the many satanic signatures that are readily visible on the surface from the git' go?
Furthermore, just because 'christians' founded Freemasonry does NOT mean that it's a Christian organization to this day.. (As it DEFFINITELY is NOT)
SOO.. A *few* guys got the WILD idea to allow 'non-Christians' because 'descrimination' was rampant. You are sooo wrong here on so many levels and this is where the rubber hits the road. TRUE Christianity is not about descrimination. In my Church we have Black, Jews, Indians, Muslims, etc.. etc.. etc. We don't descriminate against them because they may have different 'beliefs' but they check those beliefs before they get to the altar. In fact, we have one 'converted' Muslim with an amazing testimony, but I'll save that one for later. You get the gist of what I'm saying. Why didn't those 'few' guys start a church that didn't discriminate? Anyways..Is there corruption in the church on different levels and has discrimination occured? Sure it has.. (and still does) that's why I'm VERY particular about what church I go to.. Problems are going to happen in the church but Jesus and His Cross darned well better be at the center of the Altar. (That means NO other 'holy book's are allowed) Trying to help someone learn about Jesus and mixing the things he taught up with every other thing you want to throw into it is like trying to stop drinking with alcohol in the house. One of the most important things about growing as a Christian is being 'touched' by God and worshipping him in his presence. (God shows up and shows out in the presence of his praise) Do you think God is going to show up at a Masonic temple with 'multiple' holy books sitting on the altar?

In a nutshell, you want to better yourself and get closer to God.. make sure things are "straight" at the altar. We will never be perfect in this lifetime and it will be a bumpy road along the 'way' but let me tell you for sure.. You definitely don't want to follow some jumbled up belief 'system'. In Freemasonry, the 'light' you are heading towards is an intentionally mixed up mess designed to keep you off the correct path. (Whether the Mason that is in your general vicinity is aware of this or not)

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:


Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


Furthermore: satan is the authur of confusion:

1co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

AND the father of lies:

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.




Beware the wiles of the Devil:

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Finding out what the true amour of God is about you will find ONLY in the Bible.

satan will do anything to lead peple astray but he isn't always going to put a sign on his back and make it 'clear'.

Looks like 'mixing' up religions and confusing allegory is one of his favorite tools.





BTW, I will be reading 'Deadly Deception' by Jim Shaw as soon as I get my hands on it. Any Freemasons have any comments on this book?




[edit on 8-3-2006 by TxSecret]

Originally posted by TxSecret
SOO.. A *few* guys got the WILD idea to allow 'non-Christians' because 'descrimination' was rampant. You are sooo wrong here on so many levels and this is where the rubber hits the road. TRUE Christianity is not about descrimination. In my Church we have Black, Jews, Indians, Muslims, etc.. etc.. etc.

That's all well and good, but I think you know that's not what I meant. We all know that when Freemasonry was first established, the Christians had this particularly nasty habit of murdering anybody who publicly disagreed with them, and in particularly gruesome ways. This is true of the Protestants as well as the Romanists.

We don't descriminate against them because they may have different 'beliefs' but they check those beliefs before they get to the altar.

It's a pity that church fathers did not share your charity concerning those of other faiths: if they did, many innocent people would have not had their lives taken from them because of their faith.

BTW, I will be reading 'Deady Deception' by Jim Shaw as soon as I get my hands on it. Any Freemasons have any comments on this book?

Actually, yes. I wrote a long paper on Shaw's case years ago, but will here give the basics:

Shaw's book contains a mixture of both truth and intentional lies. For example, Shaw told the truth about being a Mason. He also told the truth about being a 32° member of the Scottish Rite, and about being a Knight Commander of the Court of Honor, as well as being a Shriner.

He lied about being a Past Master of his Lodge, Past Master of all Scottish Rite bodies, and about being 33° (in effect, all his details about his fictional trip to Washington D.C. to receive the 33° are make believe).

In this very forum, I have previously produced photocopies of Shaw's resignation letter, a copy of the program of his Scottish Rite Temple at the time, and his membership card, all showing him to be a 32°, not 33°, at the time he resigned. His letters also show that he was still friendly with Masonry when he resigned, and he did not become an anti-Mason until much later, when apparently he saw that money could be made from it.

That's all well and good, but I think you know that's not what I meant.

Well, what did you mean Masonic Light?

You admit that church fathers of yore didn't have the same level of charity as my chuch does.. So what was the 'excuse'..err. or reason to set up Freemasonry again? If I lived back then and my 'fellow' Christians were busy murdering anybody that publicly disagreed with them I definitely would have disasociated myself with them. (I realize this would have been EXTREMELY hard to do) would I have "jumped ship" and 'fled' to Freemasonry? Probably not.

We all know that when Freemasonry was first established, the Christians had this particularly nasty habit of murdering anybody who publicly disagreed with them, and in particularly gruesome ways. This is true of the Protestants as well as the Romanists.

Masonic Light.. Did Jesus EVER teach this kind of behaviour? If you have read the Bible you will understand what Jesus thought of the Pharisees. (I'm clumping the behaviour of the Pharisees in Jesus' time with the behaviour of the murderous "Christians" you spoke about. The 'discrimation' you speak of was NOT of God but of man's (satans) own devices.

As far as the book Deadly Deception, I'm going to read it nonetheless. I'm done reading Morals and Dogma but not really ready to comment on that yet. (My response to it is not favorable for Masons)



[edit on 8-3-2006 by TxSecret]

Originally posted by TxSecret
So what was the 'excuse'..err. or reason to set up Freemasonry again?

If the only reason for setting up Freemasonry was to combat the nonsense spewed by intolerant religious zealots, Freemasonry serves a noble purpose.

If you have read the Bible you will understand what Jesus thought of the Pharisees.

IMHO you qualify as an agent of the Pharisees.

Jeremiah 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

I'm done reading Morals and Dogma but not really ready to comment on that yet.

I bet not. Since you do not even a reasonable understanding of the Bible, I couldnt imagine that you would be qualified to discuss M&D.
.

Originally posted by TxSecret



Well, what did you mean Masonic Light?

That the Church's discrimination was not necessarily based on race, but on religion.

You admit that church fathers of yore didn't have the same level of charity as my chuch does.. So what was the 'excuse'..err. or reason to set up Freemasonry again?

To begin with, we don't need an "excuse". In like manner, I could ask for an "excuse" as to why Christianity was established.

Modern Freemasonry was established as a place where people could freely discuss ideas without being persecuted for it. It has always represented the ideals of the Enlightenment, and continues to do so today.

If I lived back then and my 'fellow' Christians were busy murdering anybody that publicly disagreed with them I definitely would have disasociated myself with them. (I realize this would have been EXTREMELY hard to do) would I have "jumped ship" and 'fled' to Freemasonry? Probably not.

Freemasonry became populated by people who were, quite frankly, sick to death of the hypocrisies and crimes of the established religion. Whether or not you would have disassociated with them, or would have found it difficult to do, is on your conscience alone. As for me, I would have supported Masonry and the Enlightenment then, as I do so today.

Masonic Light.. Did Jesus EVER teach this kind of behaviour?

No, he didn't. In fact, Masonry has often done a MUCH better job of following the teachings Christ than the church has.

If you have read the Bible you will understand what Jesus thought of the Pharisees.

I do indeed. And like the poor, the Pharisees we have with us always.

The 'discrimation' you speak of was NOT of God but of man's (satans) own devices.

Here I agree with you, but you've touched upon something that perhaps you did not expect to. We agree when you say that murder is of man, and not of God. But many, if not most, modern Christian churches can trace their lineage to murderers. If it was man or Satan, and not God, then the modern churches are in strange circumstances. Calvin, for example, murdered hundred in cold blood. Yet he is a hero to both the Presbyterians and the Reformed Baptists.

As far as the book Deadly Deception, I'm going to read it nonetheless.

By all means, do so: just don't read it in a vaccuum. Be aware that we do not contest the facts that Shaw presents. We simply do not countenance the fictions that he intermingled with it.

I'm done reading Morals and Dogma but not really ready to comment on that yet. (My response to it is not favorable for Masons)

It is unfortunate that you are not ready to comment on it, as I would certainly be interested in your views. I've never met anyone, either Mason or non-Mason, who ever really read the book that did not walk away with a positive image of Pike and Masonry. In fact, I read the book before I became a Mason, and it was precisely this book that made me want to be a Mason, as I was inspired by it like no other philosophical work.

Get your ire up df1?

Here we go again NO BODY in their right mind would compare the "nonsense spewed by intolerant religious zealots" as you say to what Jesus taught.

df1

IMHO you qualify as an agent of the Pharisees.

That almost got me rolling out of my chair laughing, honestly.

df1

Since you do not even a reasonable understanding of the Bible, I couldnt imagine that you would be qualified to discuss M&D

That's defintiely your opinion df1 but you don't know me as well as you think you do and I'm very comforatable with my understanding of the Bible.

I humbly suggest YOU re-evalute your understanding of the Bible. Can you really 'see' what it's trying to tell you?


Just can't go there guys. Jesus is my saviour and I'm not going to get involved with any organization that -peddles- 'sprirituality' that's not specifically in Jesus' name. I'm not going to perform any 'ritual' , 'rite' or anything else of that nature that's not SPECIFICALLY in the name of Jesus either.

BTW, why are rituals, rites and stuff like that performed in the first place.. what's the purpose?


I will keep an open mind but the hole is getting deeper and deeper for Freemasonry as far as I'm concerned.


I'm waiting for someone to make fun of my background picture..


P.S.

Masonic Light
Masonry has often done a MUCH better job of following the teachings Christ than the church has.

ML,

No offense but we will NEVER NEVER NEVER agree on that one. The foundation of Freemasonry is not the same as the foundation of True Christianity. You simply can NOT compare the two.

[edit on 8-3-2006 by TxSecret]

Originally posted by TxSecret



ML,

No offense but we will NEVER NEVER NEVER agree on that one.

No offense taken, but I find it odd that you would say that when in your very last post you acknowledged that the church, at least in times past, engaged in the most heinous forms of murder, while Masonry has always stood up for the dignity of the individuality, and his or her own personal rights.

Masonry declares that individuals or superior to institutions, not vice versa. This is why we've always gotten the rap from the church. Personally, I don't apologize for it, I celebrate it.

[edit on 8-3-2006 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by TxSecret
you don't know me

You complain that I do not know you, while at the same time judging how all Masons are viewed in the eyes of Jesus. This sounds like a double standard. You are allowed to say whatever you want about men you do not know, but then cry foul, "you dont know me", when I make assessments of your position based on your own words.

There is one kind of door that a key can't open. Knowledge is key, but it can't open a close mind

AC,

I do have an open mind..
(I wouldn't be reading and researching various materials relating to Fremasonry if I wasn't)

I just wish you guys could reconcile my foundation of my belief (Bible) with Freemasonry. It doesn't look like it can be done.

I will keep an open mind however, if I didn't I probably wouldn't be in here posting with you guys.






[edit on 8-3-2006 by TxSecret]

df1 You complain that I do not know you, while at the same time judging how all Masons are viewed in the eyes of Jesus. This sounds like a double standard. You are allowed to say whatever you want about men you do not know, but then cry foul, "you dont know me", when I make assessments of your position based on your own words.

This is where you are wrong df1. I'm not judging anyone, I'm merely using scripture to base my argument on. What foundation are you basing YOUR arguments on? You make it seem like from a few words you have me ALL figured out... Looks like you got Jesus all figured out.. (NOT)

Don't try to play the judgement card with me just because the Light of Jesus doesn't favor Freemasonry the way you would like it too.

Interesting road you are taking yourself down df1.


This scripture was just pointed out to me by another member.. (Thank you Game Set Match for bringing this to my attention)

Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

"ye double minded."

Heheee.. I LOVE it.. I wonder what he meant by that??





One more thing.. Apparently I'm going to have to reiterate this a few more times but I'm not here to judge or condemn ANYONE. Will I strongly disagree? Of course I will.



[edit on 8-3-2006 by TxSecret]

To be honest, I still don't think you've presented anything which demonstrates that Christian doctrine and Freemasonry are remotely at odds with each other.

You've certainly shown that your interpretation of Christian dogma necessarily excludes the practice of Freemasonry but, since you are not a Freemason, it is largely inconsequential to the argument.

[edit on 8-3-2006 by Roark]

Ok Roark,

Why don't you go back and grab some highlights from my prior posts, break it all down for us, and argue it up?

(Please focus on the scripture that I posted if you will.)


I'll be waiting.



P.S. I asked this earlier and it got glossed over.. What is the purpose of rites and rituals?? (And anything else along those lines)

[edit on 8-3-2006 by TxSecret]

Originally posted by TxSecret
BTW, I will be reading 'Deadly Deception' by Jim Shaw as soon as I get my hands on it. Any Freemasons have any comments on this book?

I may not necessarily be a Freemason, but I have a comment. Read the book. Read it from cover to cover. THEN read "Is It True What They Say About Freemasonry" (which deals specifically with Shaw's book)

In other words if you're going to read one side, at LEAST read the other side.

Then decide.

I did.

Pax!

By the way, here is the definitions of ritual and rite respectively:

education.yahoo.com...

education.yahoo.com...

Now.. How many rituals and rites are there in Freemasonry??

Originally posted by TxSecret
I'm done reading Morals and Dogma but not really ready to comment on that yet. (My response to it is not favorable for Masons)

If you're not a Mason it wouldn't be. It was written for Scottish Rite Masons not Blue Lodge Masons or non-Masons. If you have not taken the degrees of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, (4th - 32nd) you cannot possibly understand the book. Plain and simple.

Pax

Appak.. I'm giving it some time.. and looking at 'both' sides of the fence. Your argument that I can't 'understand' certain things because I have not been up to certain degrees does not apply to the particular direction I'm taking this.

I'm getting down to the quick of this: Is Freemasonry compatible with the Bible? (In particular, the 'Red Letter' portions). That's what this thread is really about. In that light it might be easier to keep it simple.


Intentional confusion is usually the byproduct of intentional, unnecessary complexity.

(I just made that up, really)





[edit on 8-3-2006 by TxSecret]

Originally posted by TxSecret
Appak.. I'm giving it some time.. and looking at 'both' sides of the fence. Your argument that I can't 'understand' certain things because I have not been up to certain degrees does not apply to the particular direction I'm taking this.

Actually it does, TxSecret. You cannot describe what goes on in a closed-session of your local City Council because unless you're a council*person* you've never been there. You can hear what OTHER PEOPLE say and what OTHER PEOPLE write, but unless you experience it, you CANNOT speak of it intelligently. Your perceptions may (or may not) be the same as someone else's.

I'm getting down to the quick of this: Is Freemasonry compatible with the Bible?

The very foundation of Freemasonry is Friendship, Morality and Brotherly Love. How could that be incompatible with the Bible? (or the holy book of any other major religion for that matter?) Does Jesus approve of Friendship, Morality and Brotherly Love?

That's what this thread is really about. In that light it might be easier to keep it simple.

Problem is...there's nothing really simple about the topic. What it all boils down to is what's right for the individual...NOT what someone ELSE decides is right for the individual. You cannot force your way of thinking upon someone else. What YOU belive may be right may not be what someone else believes is right and may not be what IS right. In the end, the Almighty Himself decides and you don't really have a vote in it. Remember the old "judge not lest ye be judged."

You have NO authority to judge. NONE. And neither do I, so personally, I choose not to. What YOU choose is up to you and you'll be held accountable for it, not me or anyone else. . . particularly not Masons.








[edit on 8-3-2006 by TxSecret]

Originally posted by TxSecret
Ok Roark,

Why don't you go back and grab some highlights from my prior posts, break it all down for us, and argue it up?

(Please focus on the scripture that I posted if you will.)


I'll be waiting.


[edit on 8-3-2006 by TxSecret]

Well, here are your Biblical quotes. I'm not sure how to begin arguing my point because, quite frankly, none of these condemn the practice of Freemasonry. There doesn't seem to be anything to argue against

Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there IS NO GOD ELSE BESIDE ME; a JUST God and a SAVIOUR; there is NONE BESIDE me.

This is obviously a tenet of Christian faith. Monotheism. It falls perfectly in line with the prerequisite of Freemasonry, that is, belief in one all-powerful Deity. Freemasonry doesn't present alternative gods for the Christian man, nor does it arbitrate how he is to approach or worship God, because that is the role of Christianity - his religion.

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat.

Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

This is in no way condemnatory of Freemasonry. It is an admonishment for the people Jesus is speaking to, that demonstrates the difficulty of living a godly life. Freemasonry simply encourages its members to pay diligent heed to the scriptures. It simply backs them up.

1co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

A verse about the nature of God, and of things which come from God. Freemasonry also encourages peace and lawful behaviour, as opposed to chaos and destruction.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Verses about the nature of God's great enemy, Satan, and how to guard against him. With Truth being one of the 3 primary tenets of Freemasonry, it necessarily rejects the works of the Devil.

Originally posted by TxSecretP.S. I asked this earlier and it got glossed over.. What is the purpose of rites and rituals?? (And anything else along those lines)

Rites and rituals have been used by humankind since the dawn of our existence. They are a systematic approach to the incorporation of sometimes-difficult concepts within our psyche, by way of symbolism and repetition. Simply put, they are a tool for learning. This is something which has often been neglected in our modern day exoteric churchs, which historically went through a period of rejecting all things esoteric.

Appak, I already told you guys I'm not here to judge anyone.

The very foundation of Freemasonry is Friendship, Morality and Brotherly Love. How could that be incompatible with the Bible?

VERY easily I must say. Let me turn the tables on you here:

If you have not read the Bible you will not understand why this is.


I'm not questioning any 'good' that comes out of Freemasonry, I'm questioning the NAME they are doing it in.. don't you understand??

In the end that's all that's going to matter.