Originally posted by Masonic Light

Masons do not act out a resurrection of Hiram Abiff. In the Masonic story, the body of Hiram is exhumed from the makeshift grave that was dug by the assasins, for the purpose of "more decent Masonic internment". He is then buried "as near the Holy of Holies as the Jewish law would permit", and over his grave a monument is erected to "commemorate his life, his fidelity, and his untimely death".

The Degrees of the Scottish Rite, beginning at the 4°, take place after Hiram has been reinterred, as do the York Rite Degrees beginning at the grade of Mark Master. No resurrected Hiram ever makes an appearance.

Being never involved in freemasonry, that I didn't know. It does however appear to be a resurrection from the "outside looking in". What I do gather however from picking through the ritual is; As one enters the ritual he is at one spiritual state and as one is 'raised' and completes the ritual, he is then at another spiritual state. Replace spiritual with "state of awareness" or whatever. Do you not agree?

You are asked whether you believe in a "higher/supreme being" before you are accepted and/or initiated into Freemasonry NOT if you believe in God of Abraham *specifically*.

Also there is nothing I've seen, heard or read that gives worship to Jesus Christ in the brotherhood. Perhaps true, that there are men who are "Christians" who are also Freemasons, but I certainly question their integrity and faith in Christ because to me I see WAY too many contradictions regarding Freemasonry and Christianity.

But again today, my common question is what IS a "true Christian" in this day and age?

Originally posted by magestica
Also there is nothing I've seen, heard or read that gives worship to Jesus Christ in the brotherhood. Perhaps true, that there are men who are "Christians" who are also Freemasons, but I certainly question their integrity and faith in Christ because to me I see WAY too many contradictions regarding Freemasonry and Christianity.

Christ is not specifically mentioned in the ritual, but the symbolism is undeniable to a Christian freemason. A non-Christian freemason may see something else, but that's his business.

As a Christian freemason I would be interested in these contradictions you see, as no-one likes their integrity questioned.

But again today, my common question is what IS a "true Christian" in this day and age?

A very subjective question indeed. One persons 'true' is another persons 'false' To a Catholic, a non-Catholic may not be a 'true' Christian, for example. For others, single issues like homosexuality may be critical in that assessment.

I will be the first to admit I do not have all the full in's and out's pertaining to Freemasonry. On one glance you see a group of innocent men gathering to feast/fellowship and help certain causes or even donate funds to certain causes. And on another you see a group of men gathering to perform rituals and rites which "utilize" certain passages from the bible that I consider as blasphemy. Again, this is just me personally.

And also why do certain churches basically shun men who are Freemasons?
I know some do not, but then there are those churches/religions which strictly do not allow men who are known Freemasons to attend/join?

As far as my question of integrity goes is this; Why? If we consider ourselves followers of Christ and believers of the Lord then why branch out into something that clearly has so much conspiracy attached to it? Why allow oneself to be initiated into something that clearly does not line up with the Word? Why put oneself in a place where integrity with our Lord is even questioned at all?

I have known Freemasons. I know some are men of God and some are not.
Why join up into something that allows you to feast and fellowship with men who are not Godly? Does the bible not teach us to not even yolk with these seeds? Do you witness to these men?

Sincerely
Mags

Originally posted by magestica
You are asked whether you believe in a "higher/supreme being" before you are accepted and/or initiated into Freemasonry NOT if you believe in God of Abraham *specifically*.

Correct, however the answer is dependant upon the candidate being asked.
Thus the Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc will answer in accordance with thier faith.
Since Freemasonry is not specifically a Christian order and is open to men of all faiths,
asking if one believed in the God of Abraham could preclude men of other faiths from answering honestly.

Originally posted by magestica
Also there is nothing I've seen, heard or read that gives worship to Jesus Christ in the brotherhood. Perhaps true, that there are men who are "Christians" who are also Freemasons, but I certainly question their integrity and faith in Christ because to me I see WAY too many contradictions regarding Freemasonry and Christianity.

Same answer as above. Masonry is neither a religion nor a replacement for religion;
it is a fraternal organization open to honourable men of all creeds. Prayer is non-denominational
and does not cater to one faith or another, instead it is
for the individual to direct his prayers in accordance with his faith.


Is it in the lack of specificity that you see a conflict?

Originally posted by AngelWitch

Is it in the lack of specificity that you see a conflict?

I agree with everything that you've stated. I am aware that Freemasonry simply defines themselves as a fraternal orginization NOT a religious order. However...Then why do they use scripture in some of their daily prayers and initiations?

I understand that when one is asked if they believe in a "supreme being" then that particular "supreme being" could be mickey mouse for all anyone knows. I don't see a poblem with people/men of all faiths congregating for the good of mankind etc..

Why are there men who on their death bed repent for their involvement in Freemasonry and beg for their soul to be saved? If Freemasonry does not go against Christianity then how is it actually condusive for men who are Christians? My questions could go on and on really. And for the record, I do not dislike/hate men who are Freemasons as that is a choice they've made and I'm nobody to judge. I just have sincere questons and concerns regarding Freemasonry.

Why are there men on their deathbeds that are NOT Mason's repenting and asking to be forgiven of their sins?

I have yet to see anything in Masonry that goes against my Christianity.

Originally posted by woodwhite
Why are there men on their deathbeds that are NOT Mason's repenting and asking to be forgiven of their sins?

I have yet to see anything in Masonry that goes against my Christianity.

There are people on their death beds repenting for all kinds of things, of course I know this! But my concern is we only repent for the things which we feel might have an affect on our salvation. So I'll keep my question as I originally posted and wait for a logical explaination

Originally posted by magestica
Why join up into something that allows you to feast and fellowship with men who are not Godly?

In no way can I speak for any mason here, but for all the masons that I know personally what I'm about to say is fact.

They either join because they feel as though they are "A nobody wanting to be a somebody." or want "power" in the community and protection, OR they join to 'fit in'.

Once in the lodge, the door of the live trap slams home. They see Judge Somefeller there, and Attorney Anybody, Mayor Foo, quite possibly the local state trooper that wrote him a ticket some while back, maybe John that got him his job and possibly his employer.

After swearing an oath that all these people may rip his tongue out by it's roots (and a hand full of others) if the secrets are "let out of the bag". Well surely you get the idea.

If this person gets "cold feet" and goes to John and ends up getting in a scuffle over the whole freemasonry deal and state trooper Joe comes out to the scene. Next thing ya know your standing in front of Judge Somefeller. You know that'll be a good hearing to be a fly on the wall at.

This is by no means an exact story, but close. I have witnessed it in my local community with my own eyes. Most notably the "pull" freemasonry has in the courtroom. Is there no help for a widow's son? Apparently there's plenty, but it's all luciferic when you get down to it.

Why are there men who on their death bed repent for their involvement in Freemasonry and beg for their soul to be saved?

If in fact there are and they were, it's because they were too terrified to do it when they were well and functional because it would have destroyed their earthly life as they knew it.

Wow.

That is exactly NOT the reason I joined. I joined because I wanted to, not because I was afraid, had an agenda or was power hungry.

Just because someone joins Masonry does not immediately sign them up in a "good old boys" network. Nepotisim lives well outside of the boundries of any Masonic world.

I know many people that got favorable because they belonged to a Moose or Elks lodge, or to a certain church.

[edit on 6-2-2006 by woodwhite]

Originally posted by woodwhite
Wow.

That is exactly NOT the reason I joined. I joined because I wanted to, not because I was afraid, had an agenda or was power hungry.

What was behind the "want"? What are you hoping to acheive by having joined Freemasonry? This is asked with sincerity not a smarty type tone.

I made a decision to join because I wanted to. I was interested in joining, I have no family history in it, no pressure to join, I just did. That is why I joined.

Originally posted by woodwhite
I made a decision to join because I wanted to. I was interested in joining, I have no family history in it, no pressure to join, I just did. That is why I joined.

But what was behind the "want"? What peeked your interest? I'm old enough to know that we humans do all things* with some sort of reasoning or intention other than just "want". Do you feel more enriched by having joined? Do you feel closer to other men? Is there any benefit to having joined woodwhite?

Edit: changed these to things*

[edit on 2/6/06 by magestica]

Hmmm. Are you looking for some type of smoking gun here? The reason I joined was to expand myself, to grow and to learn.

I have become more enriched since I joined, I have met great people and my wife in joining Eastern Star has met great people as well.

My benefit is simple: personal, and spiritual growth.

Originally posted by woodwhite
Hmmm. Are you looking for some type of smoking gun here? The reason I joined was to expand myself, to grow and to learn.

I have become more enriched since I joined, I have met great people and my wife in joining Eastern Star has met great people as well.

My benefit is simple: personal, and spiritual growth.

You stated a few posts ago that you are a Christian. Does God alone not enrich your life and benefit your spiritual and personal growth? I'm simply wondering why any person of Godliness would even have a desire to join Freemasonry? If Freemasonry is not a religious group then how can a person of Freemasonry find any kind of spiritual growth where it pertains to our Lord and Saviour?

[edit on 2/6/06 by magestica]

Why are there men who on their death bed repent for their involvement in Freemasonry and beg for their soul to be saved?

If they exist, then I have no clue why. I suspect that they do not,
and if there are those that do then they are probably very few.

If Freemasonry does not go against Christianity then how is it actually condusive for men who are Christians?

I would say that there is nothing that is conducive towards any specific faith in Masonry
(Though Christians would be more familar with the content of the ritual than would a Hindu)
and each Mason is an individual with his own motives for joining.
What drew me to Masonry was the chance to meet and associate
with men of high moral standards, be part of an organization with
a long and interesting history, and as a bonus we do some very
good things for the community.

Originally posted by magestica

Originally posted by woodwhite
Hmmm. Are you looking for some type of smoking gun here? The reason I joined was to expand myself, to grow and to learn.

I have become more enriched since I joined, I have met great people and my wife in joining Eastern Star has met great people as well.

My benefit is simple: personal, and spiritual growth.

You stated a few posts ago that you are a Christian. Does God alone not enrich your life and benefit your spiritual and personal growth? I'm simply wondering why any person of Godliness would even have a desire to join Freemasonry? If Freemasonry is not a religious group then how can a person of Freemasonry find any kind of spiritual growth where it pertains to our Lord and Saviour?

[edit on 2/6/06 by magestica]

Hi Mags,

I have a question. Why does spiritual growth have to pertain to our Lord and Saviour?


Meaning of spiritual:

Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. See Synonyms at immaterial.
Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul.
Of, from, or relating to God; deific.
Of or belonging to a church or religion; sacred.
Relating to or having the nature of spirits or a spirit; supernatural.


Spiritual growth to me is about inner growth - understanding of life - growth at being a better person. It doesn't HAVE to relate to God.
Do you see my point? Everyones idea of spiritual growth is personal, an
individual interpretation. Well, except in the religious realms.

And yes, I am a believer in God and I have my own very precious relationship with him and he guides me in my growth. But thats an
individual choice. My father, was also a Mason, of which I am very proud.
Their kindness towards our family over the last 30 years has been
at times, nothing short of miraculous.

Best wishes.


[edit on 6-2-2006 by sanse_nz]

'Our Lodge has a Jewish Chaplain, English Catholic Master, and Arab Muslim Senior Warden, and I've never seen a better example of wisdom and compassion than when those three men sit down at a table together to thrash out fundraising issues.' Roark

Beautiful.

Originally posted by magestica
You stated a few posts ago that you are a Christian. Does God alone not enrich your life and benefit your spiritual and personal growth? I'm simply wondering why any person of Godliness would even have a desire to join Freemasonry? If Freemasonry is not a religious group then how can a person of Freemasonry find any kind of spiritual growth where it pertains to our Lord and Saviour?

[edit on 2/6/06 by magestica]

- Meditation/prayer
- Church
- Discussion with peers
- Books

etc etc etc

Same ways as you, I'd guess. We don't spend our entire lives in the Lodge. It's more like about 3 hours a month.

Originally posted by sanse_nz
Hi Mags,

I have a question. Why does spiritual growth have to pertain to our Lord and Saviour?


Meaning of spiritual:


[edit on 6-2-2006 by sanse_nz]

You are absolutely right. I understand what it means to a person/individual to be "spiritual" and it can have different meanings depending on the person.

But I just do not agree that being spiritual does not have to pertain to our Lord. I am adamant that being spiritual can only come through our Lord. Whether that comes through in the form of another person, a book or even a website like this one, is clearly subjective.

I asked the question pertaining to spiritual growth to another member who stated that his benefit to joining Freemasonry was personal and spiritual. This same member suggested that he is a Christian so therefore I chose to delve deeper into his reasoning behind how Freemasonry can offer him spiritual growth that otherwise our Lord cannot.

For example if a Mason had answered my question as to why they joined with a reason like "for the food" I would have asked what is so good about the food that you cannot get outside of Freemasonry.

The topic of this post is the reason I am asking questions here, and it is the reason why I am specifically asking questions regarding our Lord to members of this forum who are also members of Freemasonry or anyone-for that matter who would like to comment.

I just don't understand why a man knowingly of God and saved by Jesus Christ, would even want to consider joining a "group" where there is so much negativity and conspiracy attached- that it even conflicts with his belief system? Sure I've heard men state that Freemasonry is a benevolent orginization and a charitable one which assist the community, but heck, we can all asstist our communities without having been initiated into a "fraternal order" where we are hoodwinked and stripped of medals etc..

Sure Freemasonry is argued not to be a religious orginization but I find it hard to swallow that a group that prays and uses the bible for all sorts of rituals and secret meanings can state on another hand that they are not religious. If that is the case than to me it is clearly blasphamy against God and His word. Sure I think it is wonderful that men of all faiths and even none, can congregate together under one roof, but again why? What is the ultimate reason or intention? When I receive an answer like for "spiritual growth" I am certainly going to question what exactly is meant by that because I don't see anything that Freemasonry has to offer that can grow a persons spirituality closer to our lord. In fact, I see quite the opposite. So of someone out there has a logical explaination then I am all ears/eyes.

Kind Regards,
Mags