Modern military grade body armor

I personally would only want a helmet for armor because i could move alot faster.

I'm still going to go for the dragon skin as the creme de la creme of current body armor for a couple reasons....

1. it's interlinking instead of hard plate wide coverage insert construction is more conducive to absorbing multiple hits across a general area (seeing as most mil spec rifles are bust or full auto capable this has a duh factor attached) whereas the large contiguous ceramic or otherwise trauma plates tend to give up the ghost after the first round that hits.

2. It's a bit heavier but much more flexible allowing the afore mentioned torso twist to snag a dropped mag or radio reciever without a muscle tearing torso twist against a ceramic plate's worth of resistance.

3. I'm sure dragon skin's manufac will quickly find a way to replace sectional if not individual "Scales" of the armor rather than a whole vest in the second generation or third generation at worst.

4. a 4,700 dollar vest versus a 300k death benefit .... you're talking a pittance to save a wheelbarrow load of cash in the long run.

Edit: and oh yeah like lockheed and the rest of the defense weapons mafia point out the more you buy the lesss the per unit cost is... right now dragon skin sells a couple thousand units a year at best.... if the military bought in you'd be looking at 150k vests first and second year and 15,000 annually beyond. which would drop production costs substantially...

[edit on 5-4-2006 by astral_ice]

Originally posted by astral_ice
I'm still going to go for the dragon skin as the creme de la creme of current 2. It's a bit heavier but much more flexible allowing the afore mentioned torso twist to snag a dropped mag or radio reciever without a muscle tearing torso twist against a ceramic plate's worth of resistance.

Wow, someone was paying attention to me! Thanks astral

Originally posted by astral_ice
4. a 4,700 dollar vest versus a 300k death benefit .... you're talking a pittance to save a wheelbarrow load of cash in the long run.

Edit: and oh yeah like lockheed and the rest of the defense weapons mafia point out the more you buy the lesss the per unit cost is... right now dragon skin sells a couple thousand units a year at best.... if the military bought in you'd be looking at 150k vests first and second year and 15,000 annually beyond. which would drop production costs substantially...

[edit on 5-4-2006 by astral_ice]

great point which people seem to over look, the only real advantage other armor kits have over dragon skin is price, but as you masterfully put it, if they get a major military contract the price of the kits could come down significantly. Pinnicle armor is a mom and pop shop compared to the others in the defense manufacturing field, small scale business. And like I point out to people a large ceramic plates shatters after a significant hit or improper handling (some have broken from just being drop, earlier models though I think). and those plates are expensive, so if u start addiding up having to replace those plates and/or the medical cost to whatever injuries a soldiers gets, paying an initual 2 grand up fronts is a hell of a lot cheaper in the long run. anyway check out a long running thread I've had on dragon skin in the link below.....

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Hey astral_ice, I totally agree with you here, you got it right on the money.

Just wanted to let you know that I agree with reason, not people.

Good going mate, keep it up.

Check your U2U box.

True astral ice about the saving lives part (300,000 is less then 5000), but how many people lives would be saved. Not everyone wearing the armor is going to be saved, and a lot of people who were died in the Iraq war, died due to things that the body armor might not be able to protect them from (a humve being blowen up, helechopter crashing, bomb or rpg).

Body armor might be tough (ignoring a ak-47) but something designed to take out vehicles, no personal armor can save you from.

I don't know the figures, but a lot of people are in front line duity (if you were to give it just to them) numbers more then a thousand I bet, times that by 5000 for good body armor (dragonscale) thats a assload, 5 mill for a thousand. Say of that thousand 5 were saved from death by the armor 1,500,000. would be saved at the cost of 5 mill, with a cheep junky body armor costing say a thousand at bulk prices they would save money by keeping the junky armor.

While casultys are high, they are not as high as the number of people serving over all.

But mabey meh?

Though it might not save limbs, it would prevent costly and painfull sergery which would make someone medicaly distarged.

If someone gets shot through the chest (peircing weaker armor) they might have good justification to leave the army, but if the bullets bounced off to no effect then they can keep working with the army. Recuiting, training, and benfits do cost quite a bit, and the army is facing a recuiting dillima, so keeping on to those they have would be good.

Military.com
The Marine Corps is five years away from finding a lighter and equally effective body armor for deployed Marines, according to a service official spearheading the effort.
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The average basic combat load for a Marine on day patrol is between 75 and 80 pounds, which includes a day pack, M-16 rifle, ammunition, grenades, radio, water and body armor. Body armor alone accounts for over 20 pounds of weight on each Marine deployed outside the wire in Afghanistan and Iraq, according to the Marine Corps.
***********
“If you can find [the next-generation, lighter body armor] in commercial industry right now, you’d make a bucket full of money,” he said. “If you can take the same ballistic protection we have today and reduce the weight of that significantly, we’d be all over that.”

Body armor should get lighter and stronger as should everything else.

PS: I'm on my way to getting myself one.

You average soldier already has a combat load that far exceeds the weight of what 13th century knights wore while in full plate male which weighed about 60lbs. That weight was also spread over the whole body so it was much easier to move around then a modern soldier that can have more then that weight mainly on his back and shoulders.

Armour is finally catching up with the firearm that rendering the before mention knights obsolete. But before we can have full body protection a future goal for the US army we need to lighten the combat load a great deal or come up with either super light weight materials like carbon-nanotubes or powered exoskeletons.

I have a qusetion then, why dont US forces in iraq LIGHTEN theyre other loads that they carry, i mean, excuse me if i sound ignorant but im sure they wouldnt need a backpack or anything for patrol, just theyre rifle, ammunition and a camel hump.

Its hard to pick what to leave and what to keep in the combat load. We are talking alot of weight up to 120-pound already for US soldiers. Thats like carrying 2 full suits of medival plate mail with you which is insane. They will say everything is vital and needed.

We can throw a gazillion dollars into tech to decease the load but even that alone wont likely be enough baring some amazing break through. They really have to cut that combat load in half.

A British study from the 1920s concluded the fighting load should not exceed 40 to 45 pound. 40-60 Pounds is where it should be IMHO

The grim reality is to accept that some things have to come a soldiers back. Body armour needs to be lightened but never dropped off the combat load its protective ability is well documented.

Originally posted by M6D
why dont US forces in iraq LIGHTEN theyre other loads that they carry, i mean, excuse me if i sound ignorant but im sure they wouldnt need a backpack or anything for patrol, just theyre rifle, ammunition and a camel hump.

You're right to a point. They might not use what's in the pack, but just in case it's there. On patrol troops pretty much carry a 'daypack' with enough food and supplies to last them for 24 hours...what if they get lost or stuck or are unabe to make it back....they'll need the daypack. Better safe then sorry, imo. And personel items add alot to the overall weight aswell as extra ammo.

Originally posted by M6D
I have a qusetion then, why dont US forces in iraq LIGHTEN theyre other loads that they carry, i mean, excuse me if i sound ignorant but im sure they wouldnt need a backpack or anything for patrol, just theyre rifle, ammunition and a camel hump.

In reality, most savvy squaddies do try to reduce their combat load. However, there is just so much kit that is required for a basic patrol. Think rifle, 180rds, grenades, batton gun-plus rounds, radio, arrest kit, spare batteries (for the radio), torch, air panel markers, firefly, water bottle, camelbak, spare ammo for LMG... the list goes on. When you consider that all of this has to be carried in 40 degree C heat, the weight of every piece of equipment is of paramount importance.

Im not sure you know the full extent of the dragon skin armor. my uncle helped design this and what your saying sounds like what you know about it you saw on futureweapons. now future weapons only pointed out its greats but it has flaws that make it nothign but a false sense of security.

dragon skin will not work in extreme heat. the exact temp i do not know since they will not release that information but it is not a temperature that this earth can not get to. the material inside the suit is not fixed it will gradually fall to the bottom increasing pressure on shoulders while no longer protecting the most common place to shoot. the chest... dont make out dragon skin to be god armor cause its flaws outweigh its protective factor by a landslide.

Furthermore, it's more susceptible to IED's, or any other explosive device which comes at the wrong angle. [Namely: Down.]

It's like scales.
Run a knife down the fish from head to fin.
Smooth!
Run from fin to head.
Now you just gotta' cook, and you have yourself some 'good eatin''!

Its a hard decision what not to take in your bergen or daysack. I used to try and lighten my load by using personal gucci equipment rather than the issue stuff. Fact is reglardess of what kit you have you gotta take a lot of stuff.

Nothing worse than getting down into a prone position to take up a target with body armour on its so so constrictive. To be honest whilst in Bosnia our CSM used to check we were all wearing Armour before going out round Sarajevo on patrol. What he didnt know was that we had taken the inside inserts out of the whole armour so that it was just the cloth then fill it with made to measure cardboard cut outs that gave it its bulky appearance.

Im not 100% sure of all the details but i remember watching the military channel and seeing a marine standing outside of a humvee, then he was shot in the upper right chest by an iraqi sniper, fall to the ground, get up, say something along the lines of holy s***, then proceed to hunt down the iraqi with the rest of his team.

so... as far as the body armor being a pain in the ass and troops dying with it and the armor being useless... well, im sure that guy would say otherwise, because he didnt see the sniper untill after he was shot, and if he hadnt been wearing the armor, or even just the insert, he wouldve died from blood loss in a short period of time.

btw anyone up for a revolution? jk

Well most of the Marines that I know personalize their armor to their needs, ie. a gunner would focus on upper torso and neck where as the infantry unit would focus on light weight rigs with a modular system built-in for other needed gear.

But honestly armor has improved a lot since the gulf war, my uncle happened to be there and he showed his CAAT team a vest that had been shot at 300 yards by a fellow Marine, the round struck the upper right side of the vest and had gone thru the front side of the vest and the round stuck into the back plate. Well I bet that gave them a bit of a worry!
He happened to give the vest to me a few years ago.

DragonSkin in heat: if this is a real problem, then it's just a matter of using an appropriate adhesive in place of the one they have now. Hardly a show-stopper.

DragonSkin at different angles: does anyone have any actual evidence that projectiles or fragments can go 'between the scales'? No, I didn't think so...if you see what it looks like you'll realise how unlikely this is.