The Salvation Conspiracy

This is something I have wanted to address, for some time, but just haven't gotten to it, yet. A derailment of another thread, at BTS, Science vs Christianity, has brought me to finally laying these ideas out (once more, perhaps, in a slightly new perspective than previously) for discussion.

The conspiracy is at the heart of the world's conflicting ideas, about God (true or fable?) and about 'salvation' (necessary or ludicrous) and by extension Christ (Jesus, real or myth, Christ or something else) as well as the bible (absolute source of human legislation as delegated by God and ruled over by christianity or just a bunch of stories).

It is assumed that one determination, in any direction, of those things, necessitates the like assignment to all the other things. By that, I mean that if the Bible is not true, then Jesus didn't exist, and God is just a way of escaping the harsh reality of death. Because of the uncoordinated theology of christianity, further fragmented through the denominational varieties, discredited by its proponents' lack of ability to thoroughly and logically explain why it is 'truth', and finally rejected as nonsense by those who are not indoctrinated in the dogmatic nonsense of the so-called 'church', no consideration seems to be given to the idea of perhaps this is a problem that lies in the human realm of action and idea rather than the divine.

I think it is largely attributable to the idea that 'salvation' and 'going to heaven' is something only available to those who forfeit their brains for 'eternal life' by 'accepting Christ as their Savior.' This idea also requires a condemnation of any other possibility--even the consideration of such a possibility--and the main one seems to be the possibility that God has provided 'salvation' to the entire world. Already promised, given, and provided in full for--not 'eternal life in heaven' so much as 'liberation from death.' The bible is misused and abused in order to 'prove' this fallacy (of selective salvation as determined by way of religious loyalties) and in so doing, much is discredited and defamed.

I was asked, by Fromabove, the following:

I just wanted to know your thoughts on how a person becomes a Christian saved in Christ. What must a person do to be saved. That's why I wasn't sure that we were so far off from each other or not. I appreciate your comments.

And I'm giving my answer now, because it relates to this possible 'conspiracy.'

I do not subscribe to the idea of 'becoming a Christian saved in Christ.' To become a 'christian' (in the truest sense of the word) is to become molded in the ideal that Christ demonstrated. This is an ideal that prohibits judgment, division, exclusion of any seeker, outward shows of anything suggesting 'piety,' religious rituals and observances, selfishness, self-orientation, and an attitude of superiority. There is a difference between justification and salvation. The world is saved, but not all are justified.

To be justified is to do with the Holy Spirit, and baptism, and spreading the gospel--which is also related to 'life everlasting' (literally 'perpetual existence').
Salvation is to be saved from death--physical death's prison in the cycle of mortal existence. It is to be liberated from mortality and restored to a higher plane of existence. But it is not the same as 'life everlasting'--perpetual existence.

Salvation, however, is something that enables every one of us to experience the next age--but it requires being born into that world, as a newborn (not knowing anything.) The next age is 'the New Jerusalem.'

Everyone will know they are 'saved,' though--the moment they die in this age. If you cannot believe me, that's perfectly okay. You will see when it is time. And the rest will suddenly become clear to you and it will all make sense. Maybe I'll even get the chance to say 'I told you so! ' If not, well, it doesn't matter in the least. All that matters is that you will know that God is not a fairy-tale or a figment of (some of) humanity's imagination. And it will also become clear that God does not favor christians for the mere sake of the name of Christ. And the knowledge of what love really is will be the clearest of all--to all of us.

If one doesn't remember life, then life is not 'perpetual.' To not have perpetual existence is to be 'hurt by the second death,' but only taking part in the 'first resurrection' guarantees this. And that is the new life given by God in this current age--to those who are justified--and God has already predetermined a certain number of those who will be justified--these are mentioned in Revelation 7:3. But the 'bounty of the harvest' is those that we find mentioned in Revelation 7:14. To 'believe on the name of Christ' is to believe in the resurrection--and to place trust in God. To believe and to obey the commandment given by Christ (to repent and be baptized) is to seek justification. Through that the Holy Spirit is given, but not immediately --although justification is immediate, just as salvation is retro-active.

But life will be given to all of us in the next age, because we are all beneficiaries of 'salvation'--we are all redeemed by Christ--just we also were included in the 'curse' earned by Adam. Physical mortality. Which is limited by the memory of the soul--our personal 'works.' One might 'die in their sins' but that doesn't mean they are going to never again exist. Only that they will start again from scratch.

Those saved but not justified are provided for as written in Revelation 22:2.

As far as the idea of 'christians saved in Christ', I see it as basically the same way of thinking that Christ continually criticized the Pharisees for---because they were not living up to their 'appointment' from God, in the interest of the 'nations', which was to eventually show God to the world, through their lives and through their hearts. Israel is not so much chosen for favor, but rather chosen to serve--ambassadors to the creation on behalf of the Creator of all.

To show favoritism or any other kind of exclusive proprietory hold on God and God's favor is simply unrighteousness. In a more complex fashion, it is hypocrisy. It is hypocrisy when it is known to those being unrighteous. I don't think that christianity today is of that nature--but the Pharisees had no excuse for unrighteousness--being schooled in the 'law' of Moses.

What must a person do to be saved.

I guess the best answer I can give is: be in the position of needing to be saved. Which is more of an 'accident' that something done on purpose.

No one swims out past the bouys and gets a stomach cramp intentionally so that the lifeguard can add one more hero notch to his whistle-cord.

Finding one's self in a fix beyond their ability to help themselves out of is not something anyone ever does in a conscious manner--it is limited perspective/understanding/awareness that lands us in situations of jeopardy.

Perhaps we might holler 'help' in order to be saved--but in the case of God's saving grace, help has already been called out for--and the help has already been provided and accomplished. 'It is finished.'

We are not in need of rescue--only of recognition of being rescued already. And to see that, we must be able to see the danger we were in, and totally unaware of. All we really need is to realize that we need to holler 'help.' As soon as we see such, and voice same, we come to the awareness that we are already rescued. And we then see that there are two states of existence: 'awareness' and 'having no idea'.

And that unawareness, as well as the danger, is something that we all share equally, in the human race--in a way that is common to absolutely every last one of us. It is the mere circumstance of just being born as a mortal human being in this world--and once born, dying is inevitable.

We do not understand that, in general, and neither is it grasped or explained by the standard christian theology. It is a conspiracy that is inherent to human existence, but compounded by human pride.

Christianity's role in the conspiracy is that of presenting a false idea of 'knowing' which is really just another shade of 'having no idea.' But it is exacerbated by the idea that one already 'knows' and therefore is much more
of a danger because it takes away the possibility of 'having no idea.' It is the 'having no idea' which allows for the 'knowing.' The false 'knowing' also hinders others who 'have no idea' and know they 'have no idea' because they cannot seem to wrap their mind around the 'knowing' that is presented as 'knowing' -- instead of just another form of 'having no idea.'

And we are all involved as both conspirator as well as being conspired against.

Not a problem, except for the fact life is much harder and taken even more hard, as a result of our attachment to the conspiracy created by our blind faith and complacent acceptance in our various religious and non-religious understandings--and this is evidenced by the unrest, anxiety, and discord in the world. Our egos are satisfied, but our souls are being oppressed--by our egos.

It is assumed that one determination, in any direction, of those things, necessitates the like assignment to all the other things.

YES! OMG this is the conspiracy I see all the time...that I must adopt and believe everything of a faith or denomination or else I'm a heretic of sorts-especially if I speak of something that is non-traditinal for such faith or belief systems...or ask too many unanswerable questions, even if I have scriptures to back up my questions...in those cases I am seen as questioning the Bible, or the word of God...or it's validity...but I'm not! Still I am condemned by a certain mentality of believers that you must subscribe to everything taught, understood and presented NO MORE AND NO LESS...even if what I propose is not contrary to the beliefs!


abso-freakin-lutely-thank you

This part is what I had really been trying to discuss in my thread about the conspiracies of the plain decptions of the Bible...I wasn't saying the Bible is deceptive, I was trying to say there is much covering up of what is not understood, taught or known about scriptures...all under the idea that you are not to think about anything more or less than what is prescribed by your choice of denomination etc....that this is deception to make people believe the BIble is not saying anything contrary to what is already accepted and seen as acceptable.

Sorry I can't be more articulate then that, but I am still trying to wrap my brain around everything you said. It seems I agree with you...well for the most part-philosophically at least...and in some ways you've read my mind and spoken my thoughts-and heart even a bit on this subject


on the subject of being saved and saved vs justification....hmmmm....semantics...I see what you are saying about salvation and justification, (I think) however salvation to me is about the atonement or eternal "life" but not immortality.

I think there is a big difference between the being saved from the curse of Adam of sin which brought the consequence of mortality and death and thus our mortality too....and being saved from being damned eternally spiritually personally.

Admittedly semantics can be a problem for me, but I don't think the term or thought of "eternal life" has anything to do with our physical bodies and immortality...to live is to progress...we wont progress physically eternally, but in /through "eternal life" we progress spiritually, and this is reserved for those who believe and act accordingly


if we are damned, we are kept from "eternal life" our personal progress is then thwarted...though I don't know that I'd agree it (the opposite of being saved and going to "heaven") means merely starting from scratch tho...I don't think we are afforded such a luxery as begining again frankly...however we are guaranteed immortality equally.

You know, really there is no difference, (except spelling) between damned and dammed. Just as water is dammed from progressing further, so are souls damned from progressing in life... and that is what salvation is-being saved from spiritual death, or damnation...so we can continue to live and progress...which is the basis of (or some may even say the meaning of) "life"...progressing...right?

I know I know, alot is semantics...and clearly it is hard for me to articulate my thoguhts, however Christ's death was to atone for the sins of the world, which atonemment is for sins that would damn us spirtually from progressing in our lives after this (and sometimes during this life)

Or in other words, it is an sacrifice as an offering in payment for "eternal life"-as opposed to a consequence of "eternal damnation" but it isn't for immortality.

You needn't believe in Christ, be baptised, or do anything else, proclaim anything else, ask for anything else or live any particular ways for his resurrection to claim you as an immortal-he beat death and thus immortality was gained for all of mankind-thus eternal/immortality is a sure thing-for everyone whether they believe in it, or Christ or anything-even if they openly reject Christ, with full knowledge and belief of his divinity-they still are saved from physical corruption and are promised eternal physical life-immortality- unending physical life after death.

The eternal part comes/and is strictly from the resurrection-no matter what anyone believes, professes, or rejects...because of Christs resurrection all with live eternally...it's a done deal, all will be immortal in body and spirit.

But it's through His atonement, all are offered the opportunity to be healed and forgiven the sins that would make them subject to the consequences that would seperate them from God and damn (dam) them in their eternal progress in their immortal lives.


So we all have been saved from mortality and physical mortal death...but will we "rise"...become immortal to live eternal "life" or eternal "damnation?" ....which is spiritual death really isn't it? So eternal life isn't synonymous with physical immortality. "Life" meaning lviing and progressing

...and re: eternal life vs damnation I just don't think there is starting over point, for those damned either...but perhaps definately losing what joy what "life" was within you to begin with and being brought to ground zero as if you had gained nothing at all by your mortal existance... physically living immortally from that point and starting at ground zero with nothing spiritually... without opportunity for progress, hope, or joy....or anything.

To them that have...more will be given...and to them without...what they have will be taken...you know?

I think it all depends on what we believe and how we behave accordingly accountable for what we know to be true, and what effort we put into seeking the truths, being accountable for them, and following the laws set forth for them etc...this determines how far we will go-forwards or backwards in the next life...in our immortal eternal lives.

Will we have much expounded to us, and a vast opportunity to progress...or a little given and some room for progress...or nothing more given, and barely room to progress...or nothing given and no room...all the way to.... everything enlightening taken away-all the light removed...and you reside in darkness...spiritual intellectual darkness with no chance to progress or improve your situation...thus truly damned....all you had taken away


I will say I do think that until we are judged, both the quick and the dead so to speak, there is time to progress-even after physical death. I do not think mortal death damns anyone from progressing...it is when we become immortal that there is no longer a chance to make the right choices.

Once immortal, you are cemented so to speak into an immortal body with whatever state your soul is in at that moment...

so today if you were to die...you could still progress spiritually...however once the time comes that bodies are reunited with souls...and you are judged-that's it-that's the cement... at that point you are immortally and eternally responsible for the state of your soul and mind.

So yes, we aren't in need of doing anything by any means or belief or religion to become immortal and have physical eternal immortal life...

and likewise I believe we are saved from our sins through the atonement for them....however without taking proper courses to believe and seek truths and act upon them and progress, we are still accountable for our actions and sins...because we didn't give them to Him to be accountable for them through his atonement... as it does take an act of repentance-knowledge for your sins, accountability for them and repentance-turing away from them-accepting an aversion to them that outweighs temptation...to claim the redeeming power from that atonement.

I get what you are saying about those who know and those who don't (those who don't know have no accountablity for what they don't know tho) and the dangers of thinking you know...which keeps you-and possibly others from actually knowing...and how mainstream Christianity certainly exacerabtes this problem thinking it knows it all-lol (No, TC or anyone else, I'm NOT Christian bashing!!) and cannot will not abide thoughts beyond what it knows...and anyone seeking or believing...is a threat and seen as someone who doesn't really know...

...*sigh*

Anyway...I don't know if you know what I all Iam trying to saying queenannie, but I do think I get most of what you are saying and I'd say ITA with it for the most part!! ...I'd say entirely but I'm not sure I understand everything entirely presented to assume I agree completely-LMBO!

[edit on 2-1-2006 by think2much]

Originally posted by think2much
that I must adopt and believe everything of a faith or denomination or else I'm a heretic of sorts-especially if I speak of something that is non-traditinal for such faith or belief systems...or ask too many unanswerable questions, even if I have scriptures to back up my questions...in those cases I am seen as questioning the Bible, or the word of God...or it's validity...but I'm not!

No, but what you are doing, whether you realize it fundamentally or not, is questioning christianity.

Those who are judging you as such don't realize it, either--but they are not following the bible as you are, in their christianity--and when what you point out is not a standardized and accepted doctrine of that religion, instead of investigating, or questioning, they just hand down a verdict.

And this kind of thing has been the way it is for almost 2000 years--ever since christianity was invented (that's right: invented--by man, not God and not Jesus and not the LORD Jesus Christ).

Think about the times of the NT--the traditional Jews ostracized and persecuted the Jews who followed Christ. They no doubt felt that those insurrectionists were deserting the faith to YHVH, instead of following YHVH to the Father--abandoning traditions that had been in place for even longer than christianity's have now been.

In the bible, where it says 'the disciples were first called 'christians' at Antioch,' it is not speaking of modern christianity--it was actually the gentile converts giving a new name to the Messianic Jews who shared the gospel with them--in order to differentiate between the 'old' Jews and the Jews who were 'christianios'--literally followers of Christ.

It was not a new religion, a replacement for Mosaic Judaism. It was just a name for those who were spreading the news that the world was essentially freed from both religion and death--by the Messiah. He paid for His people's sins and set them and the rest of the world (the gentiles) free from the material realm. He literally opened the door to the other side.

Not just so some certain ones could pass through--but so that we could all pass through. Christianity has perverted that message--it is the OT all over again, if you look at in comparison.

'Nothing new under the sun.'

this is deception to make people believe the BIble is not saying anything contrary to what is already accepted and seen as acceptable.

Read the second chapter of 2 Thessalonians. Several times--until it begins to light up...what Paul was saying and what you are saying...

on the subject of being saved and saved vs justification....hmmmm....semantics...I see what you are saying about salvation and justification, (I think) however salvation to me is about the atonement or eternal "life" but not immortality.

We can talk about this later on.

Read the second chapter of 2 Thessalonians. Several times--until it begins to light up...what Paul was saying and what you are saying...

Will do!!

And yes, I'd look forward to further discussions with you...Jesus was not the Christ, the son of God, our savior?...hmmmm...we'll have to differ in opinion there for now!

Queenannie, you are so 'with it' on so many details that I worry about folk taking "all" you say as 'gosple'.

There is something you're saying that I want to go deeper into but I have people to feed now so will get back to it when I have undisturbed time.

I just want to ask folk to 'test' 'all' you're saying, in the mean time.

Originally posted by think2much
Jesus was not the Christ, the son of God, our savior?...hmmmm...we'll have to differ in opinion there for now!

Where did you get that? I didn't say that, at all. You surely misunderstood something I wrote.

Originally posted by suzy ryan
I just want to ask folk to 'test' 'all' you're saying, in the mean time.

I would certainly insist that they do...

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by think2much
Jesus was not the Christ, the son of God, our savior?...hmmmm...we'll have to differ in opinion there for now!

Where did you get that?

I didn't say that, at all. You surely misunderstood something I wrote.

I surely did! LMAO! This is why I shouldn't be reading...let alone writing after my sleeping pills have kicked in! I thought that was odd!

Sorry!

You sillly thing, you!

Originally posted by queenannie38

You sillly thing, you!

I'd write more, but not only did I take my sleeping pills already but a narcotic anti-inflamatory and pain relievers tonight too...yee-haw!

Time for bed...no posting for think tonight