Credit card debt a fraud?

Owing several thousand dollars to five separate credit cards, my New Years resolution is to turn over my debt to a nonprofit credit consolidator.

Ironically, the day after I made this decision, I received an e-mail from an organization called "Debt Eraser." It claimed to legally eliminate all credit card debt without bankruptcy, without consolidation and without ever making an other payment. It claimed credit card debt was a fraud. I left my phone number to be contacted and thus far two messages have been left for my reply.

When I tried to contact the site to see what the catch was before I talked to anyone, my access was forbidden.

Okay now I'm thinking, it's most likely a scam and AOL won't permit it, or just maybe, there's something to it. Maybe just like our Federal income tax, credit card debt really is illegal.

Can anyone back up my theory on credit card debt legality?

To learn more on the IRS's ultimate scam on American tax payers go to:
www.supremelaw.org...

Maybe you will have better luck at accessing this site:
[email protected],

How can spending money you don't have and raking up debt for interest, terms of which you agree to when you sign up for a credit card, not be legally binding?

If credit card debt is a fraud, then whose money are you spending which you do not have? Who is picking up the tab? The credit card companies, this is how they make money. They give you the benefit of using money which you don't have, which you agree to pay them.

- Attero

Do you not sign a legally binding contract when you sign up for a credit card?

[edit on 19-12-2005 by Attero Auctorita]

Actually, you should be careful with the nonprofit credit consolidator too. I looked into this for a friend, who desperately needed it, but there were some complications involved.

The contract involved turning over all your debt to them, and letting them manage the payments. You needed to send them the monthly payment and you better not blow that one. Problem is one of the things they required was that you dealt with everything in cash while you're debt is being paid down, you were not permitted to have a checking account. Though this may be a good way of containing your spending, it makes life very complicated, and some people who have trouble managing their finances can really blow it with their cash.

You would need to pay all your utilities and them with money orders. That can be a real hassle. Forget the extra fees to get the money orders, think about having to get to the bank to cash your pay, and not being able to get to the post office or something to get the money orders, or having to run all over town to make utility payments at places that accept them. Not an easy task for (in this case) a single working mom. How many personal errands can you run on company time? If you have obligations like having to pick your child up from child care after work, how could you possibly fit this into your schedule?

Plus, another thing I didn't realize (till an employee that worked off site and was having his paychecks mailed, and sometimes the mail just took too long, so I kept getting in his face about direct deposit so he wouldn't have to bother accounting every day about where his check was) was that banks now actually refuse some people to open a checking account. I got the impression that this mostly occurs when you have a history of bounced checks or overwithdrawals at the ATM, but once you don't have one, apparently your credit report is checked to see if you are even worthy of having opening one. Ask a lot of questions before signing a contract and be sure you can meet their demands once you are in contract with them. If they won't permit a checking account, see if they will permit a prepaid spending card for payments to them and your utilities (most of which accept payment via debit card I believe).

Most of all, if you do one of these services the one thing you better be sure of is that you never miss or make late a payment to them. Otherwise it gets real ugly.

Ask a lot of questions before signing.

As for these places that say they can wipe out your debt, the ususal scam is that they challenge everything on your credit report. This way, it cannot appear on your report while the charges are being disputed. During this time you have a clear credit report, but guess what, it's not gone, they can just show you a clean credit report during the challenge period. A few months later, it's all back on there.

Attero Auctorita, I never claimed to advocate not paying back money I willingly spent. If so wouldn't I choose to file bankruptcy?

I am simply interested in the legality regarding credit card debt as implied to me via e-mail.
Knowing what I know about the income tax conspiracy, it wouldn't surprise me if the law was twisted again in the name of corporate profit!

But even with increasing awareness, relatively few choose to file “Withholding Exemption Certificates” in lieu of W-4 forms, even though this relinquishes them from paying further income tax to the IRS. Most choose not to believe that they have a legal option, and many who do know, are either afraid of reprisal or don't have the time to file the extensive paperwork.

Surely it would be the same scenario for credit card debt if it turns out banks too are bending the law. Raising interest rates at their discretion is a prime example of this I would wager.

Any way, if these are real lawyers exposing this so called fraud, how can I prove or disprove their claims?

Surely if this is another conspiracy, someone from ATS must have at least heard rumors by now.

Has anyone got my back?

Originally posted by dollmonster
Attero Auctorita, I never claimed to advocate not paying back money I willingly spent. If so wouldn't I choose to file bankruptcy?

You would still have to pay back as much of your debt as you could even if you declared bankruptcy. They would take away all your possesions that were not considered "essential", and a record of it would stay with you for life. Bankruptcy is not a "walk away free" card, other wise people would do it every 5 minutes.

Knowing what I know about the income tax conspiracy, it wouldn't surprise me if the law was twisted again in the name of corporate profit!

The so called income tax conspiricy is bunk. What do you mean by "twisted" law anyway? It is a contract, pure and simple - they have been around for thousands of years and are backed by well established national law. You have signed a bit of paper saying that you would like to borrrow some money from the lender (the credit card company) at a certain price (the interest) within certain terms for repayment and what will happen in the case of non-payment. The terms of the contract cannot break any existing laws (such as the right of lender to hack off your arms with a rusty saw in the event of non-payment). Other than that you had complete free will in choosing whether or not you wanted sign that contract and take the money (which you obviously did).

Surely it would be the same scenario for credit card debt if it turns out banks too are bending the law. Raising interest rates at their discretion is a prime example of this I would wager.

Why do you think that the ability of a government to raise income tax and the laws relating to contracts and personal debts should be related? I suppose if you started off with the general view that "it's all a big conspiricy" then you might take this stance. However it would be very irrational. The ability of the credit card company to change interest rates will also be governed by the contract (which will have to make sure it meets pre-existing laws as well). Why don't you pull the contract out and have a read of it?

Any way, if these are real lawyers exposing this so called fraud, how can I prove or disprove their claims?

Well as they have disappeared into the ether it will be pretty hard to test their claims. You might as well ask about how you would prove or disprove the claims of the guys promising to give you a 12 inch penis for $25.

Surely if this is another conspiracy, someone from ATS must have at least heard rumors by now.

The only conspiricy is by hucksters sending spam emails that attempt to convince the credulous and naive that they can get away with not paying debts or income tax by simply sending them a small fee. Don't fall for the conspiricy.

i was talking to somebody yesterday that had contacted a debt consolidation company and she turned over all her debt to them. they said they would do all the work, and not to talk to the c.c. companies and they wanted power of attorney. she got screwed and still owes $$.
even if they do forgive some debt, watch the fine print 'cause certain companies, if the forgive more than 'x' amount, they will put the rest on a 1099c, so it will affect your taxes. check out rense. com and infowars.com, they have a couple of companies that may be worth checking out.

good luck
something to look at

I do believe that credit card companies have a secret agenda. They are the perfect instrument to keep the proletariat (i.e. working class masses) subdued and in chains. The working class is barely paid enough money to do anything but exist, sometimes they don't have enough money due to an accident/problem (required medical work/car dies, whatever). They rely on credit cards which the credit card companies always may sure you have tons of offers for. You use a credit card to get out of a hard situation where you have no money, then unforseeable another accident/problem occurs and you use the credit card again, and keep digging a hole for yourself. Debt is just another way to keep the class distinctions seperate, and keeping the capitalists on top of the food chains. They own the companies who exploit the laborer, and they own the companies that the laborer owes debt to.

Anyway, there is a Marxist point of view.

I'm not here to prove or disprove any claims, heck, I'm not even a lawyer.

But I just wanted to point you to this website www.etext.org... about the author of IRS conspiracy.

While googling I also found those laws from the Internal Revenue Code.
www4.law.cornell.edu... 07803----000-.html

TITLE 26 > Subtitle F > CHAPTER 80 > Subchapter A > § 7803

§ 7803. Commissioner of Internal Revenue; other officials

(a) Commissioner of Internal Revenue

(1) Appointment

(A) In general

There shall be in the Department of the Treasury a Commissioner of Internal Revenue who shall be appointed by the President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, to a 5-year term. Such appointment shall be made from individuals who, among other qualifications, have a demonstrated ability in management.

TITLE 26 > Subtitle F > CHAPTER 80 > Subchapter A > § 7804

§ 7804. Other personnel

(a) Appointment and supervision

Unless otherwise prescribed by the Secretary, the Commissioner of Internal Revenue is authorized to employ such number of persons as the Commissioner deems proper for the administration and enforcement of the internal revenue laws, and the Commissioner shall issue all necessary directions, instructions, orders, and rules applicable to such persons. (b) Posts of duty of employees in field service or traveling Unless otherwise prescribed by the Secretary

A credit card is of course different than obtaining a bank loan but the principle of borrowing money from a bank is the same. When you signed up for your credit cards, you agreed to be bound by the terms from the lending bank. If you have doubts about the fine print in your credit card agreements, run it by your family's lawyer.

Finally, there are companies that scam and prey upon those ignorant of the law. "Credit card agreements sure sound complicated, don't they? Perhaps they're not legal after all!" Whoa! Watch out for that line of thinking. A good maxim to remind you is "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is."

If your credit cards are so high, that they will take you years to pay off, the best you might consider is to make a reduced payment agreement with them. This is usually only available if your credit card has been inactive and they've got 3rd party collection agencies after you. You would be better off paying your smallest debts first as fast as you can while keeping up with your larger debt payments. The interest each month is what adds up your total.

Also, consider reading Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace Planner books. He also has a national radio show that you can call into.

Best of luck.

The only way to erase your creditcard debt is making the commitment to start paying more than their regular installment and lock them in a safe that will not be near you.

If is something that is killing the hard working American is the creditcards debt.

Don't need a credit counseling agency to charge you for their services is up to you to control spending.

I would give Mary Croft's ebook a read. It contains lots of very interesting information regarding tax, credit cards, law, and debt. It's also more than just "theories".. actual processes the woman in question has gone through and suceeded in. Here is a small quote from the opening paragraph of the book:

“You know there is no law compelling you to pay tax on your income.”... She then produced a series of letters, the drift of which was to request the bank to provide me with three things:

1. validation of the debt (the actual accounting);
2. verification of their claim against me (a sworn affidavit or even just a signed invoice); and,
3. a copy of the contract binding both parties.

I was to write that, as soon as I received these three documents, I would be happy to pay any financial obligation I might lawfully owe. The banks can’t validate the debt because they never sustained a loss; they can’t verify any claim against me because I am not the NAME they are billing - more on this later. They can’t produce a copy of the contract because one doesn’t exist. What exists is an unenforceable unilateral contract. What the banks refer to as ‘your contract with us’ is not a valid bilateral agreement since the four requirements of a lawful, binding contract were not met on the credit card ‘application’, namely:

1. Full Disclosure (we are not told that we are creating the credit with our signature);
2. Equal Consideration (they bring nothing to the table, hence they have nothing to lose);
3. Lawful Terms and Conditions (they are based upon fraud); and
4. Signatures of the Parties (corporations can’t sign because they can’t contract - they are legal fictions).

www.wealth4freedom.com...

Originally posted by marg6043
If is something that is killing the hard working American is the creditcards debt.

It is suicide, not killing. Banks do not force people to live beyond their means. Do not blame banks for "hard working Americans" going tens of thousands of dollars into debt.

People need to show some backbone and personal integrity by taking responsibility for their irresponsible use of credit.

I think credit card companies can be pretty unethical in their practices. I think some of them abuse the agreement you have with them. I'll give you my personal example.

I have one Chase credit card, that is abusing me terribly. I use their name because I'm sick of it. Firstly, yes, it was me who got behind for a time, and started the "overdraft snowball." My fault. But I did start making larger payments over the past year, $50 a month. But this was not a minimum payment, so again the $30 - $35 overdraft fee applies. And to add to this, a $30 - $35 late fee is being tacked onto this bill, every month, despite me paying on or before the due date. I've been paying $50 a month for near a year.

My minimum payment is now $1200+ just to get to the point where I will be down below my credit limit and stop the overdrafts.

You may ask what my credit limit is? Well, it's $1000. That's right, my minimum payment exceeds the credit limit! I haven't bought a thing with the card in over a year. I'm guessing I've only really charged around $1300 total to the card. And I'm guessing I paid them roughly $1000 in the years I have owned the card. I got the card around the beginning of 2003. Chase allmost allways got a payment every month, I was paying the minimums and being on time most of the time, untill a little over a year ago.

At what point do some of these credit card companies stop punishing their customers for something that happened months ago? Isn't there some kind of moral judgement that should be made by the credit card sompany when they see that thier customer is making a good effort to pay down the bill? Yeah, I messed up for a short period, but holy cow, how many thousands of dollars are they going to inflate the bill to?

$50 is a generous payment in my eyes, especially when I was only paying $19 before the credit got messed up. If Chase makes a little money off of me, fine, but this is abusive. I don't have $1200 laying around, even if I did, do I really "owe" them this money? $1200 could be much better spent, and not given to "theives."

Troy

Originally posted by cybertroy

I have one Chase credit card, that is abusing me terribly. Troy

How are they abusing you? Did you not read the contract before you applied for the card? I have read many credit card contracts and they ALL explain in detail the penalties for late payments, not paying the minimum balance due, and going over the limit.

Take some responsibility. Read contracts before you sign them and if there is any possibility that in the future you will not be able to meet the obligations set forth then do not apply for the card!

Credit cards are very tricky in their minimum payments add interest rates that usually are almost 28 percent and their late fees and before you know it. . . . you got into credit card debt because an emergency and find yourself in a circle and not way to get out.

My parents never owned a credit card and my husband and me got rid of them, occurs you need to have one or two just to keep your credit scores but never charge what you can not pay within the billing circle.

They target hard working Americans that see a way to pay for out of budget expenses and then they get into the circle.

Never trust the 0 percent they offer because if you use it and max out you and are not able to pay them off monthly your are going to pay for ever.

Overall creditcates are good for credit scores if you can keep up with them but also they can damage your credit if you do not pay them in time.

Share check cards are a good alternative to credit cards because you are using the money you have in the bank, when is not money you can not charge.

Never, never charge what you can not pay within a billing circle.

[edit on 23-12-2005 by marg6043]

Originally posted by Attero Auctorita
Anyway, there is a Marxist point of view.

Understood, but allow me to give a capitalism point of view.

They are the perfect instrument to keep the proletariat (i.e. working class masses) subdued and in chains.

Attero, those who "keep" themselves "subdued and in chains" are those who lack financial discipline and put themselves in debt by using those credit cards. You nor anyone else that have incurred large amounts of credit card debt have no business blaming capitalism, credit card companies, and/or any of the financial institutions for your indebtness, no one but yourselves.

The working class is barely paid enough money to do anything but exist, sometimes they don't have enough money due to an accident/problem (required medical work/car dies, whatever).

Regardless if half of what you say is accurate, your making excuses, nothing more, nothing less.

They rely on credit cards which the credit card companies always may sure you have tons of offers for.

If they rely on those credit cards to pay bills, then they lack financial discipline and had no business willingly accepting those credit cards in the first place. Last time I checked, credit cards are not forced upon anyone to accept, and when accepted, a contract of sorts is signed between the one doing the accepting and the one doing the lending.

You use a credit card to get out of a hard situation where you have no money, then unforseeable another accident/problem occurs and you use the credit card again, and keep digging a hole for yourself.

Pretty much. Adds more merit to the mention of lack of financial discipline. You spend, and likewise try to save, within your means, as if you did NOT have those credit cards.

Debt is just another way to keep the class distinctions seperate, and keeping the capitalists on top of the food chains. They own the companies who exploit the laborer, and they own the companies that the laborer owes debt to.

And again, those "proletariat" can thwart those dern capitalists by simply saying 'no' when one receives those credit card company credit card offerings, huh?







seekerof

[edit on 24-12-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof
Attero, those who "keep" themselves "subdued and in chains" are those who lack financial discipline and put themselves in debt by using those credit cards. You nor anyone else that have incurred large amounts of credit card debt have no business blaming capitalism, credit card companies, and/or any of the financial institutions for your indebtness, no one but yourselves.

That is indeed true. But due to low wages paid to the proletariat, they see their only refuge as being that of the credit card.

Regardless if half of what you say is accurate, your making excuses, nothing more, nothing less.

Yeah, one thing i've noticed about capitalists these days is that they do not like excuses. There is not excuse for anything. No reason for anything. The proletariat who runs into financial trouble has to either starve to death via poverty or incur debt.

If they rely on those credit cards to pay bills, then they lack financial discipline and had no business willingly accepting those credit cards in the first place. Last time I checked, credit cards are not forced upon anyone to accept, and when accepted, a contract of sorts is signed between the one doing the accepting and the one doing the lending.

Agreed. I made a point to show in my original post that by using credit cards one signs a legally binding contract which notifies them of their terms of service.

Anyway, i'm speaking as somebody who has no debt, and who has just finished a class in Marxism at KU. I don't necessarily agree with this view point, I just thought I might voice the potential views of the poor working masses, as I see them.

- Attero

The initial system it is set up within is fraudulent , that would be the banking system ..........
As a sidenote , the banking systems in some muslim countries forbid the collection of interest on loans as does the constitution in the US , gee........can't have that , how could you blend such a thing into the gang of thieves in the west seamlessly , better bomb them into the stone age so they will agree to a new constitution to get the light and water turned back on...........click.

Bottom line, the job of bankers and creditcards is to offer you a way out of a situation and then get you into the vicious circle of debt.

If you paid before the billing cycle they will not make money.

So the longer you take to pay the more money they make.

If you can not manage a credit card. . . then don't get one.

If you have one and is max out, . . . then cancel, put it away, cut it and just manage to pay more than the minimum.

Or you will be in their trap for ever.

My rule of thumb is if you don't have the money, you don't buy. When I use my credit card, I pay the complete bill next month. As a matter of fact, the bank hates me for this, because banks don't make any money with good payers. They even lose money on me, by printing the bill on paper and paying for snail mailing it to me, then they see no return of investment.

Credit card is just that, credit! You borrow money, then next month you give them the money back. If you don't, they will eat you alive. No fraud there, you just have to thoroughly read the fine print in the contract you signed.

On a side note, I use credit card mainly for fraud protection, whenever I purchase something I always make sure I've got the money right there in my pocket. For example if I buy online and never received the goods, I call the bank for chargeback. It's safer than money order or bank check. But I had the money in the first place, I don't rely on credit card as a source of income.