Evolutionary Creationism!!! Ponder this for both sides

Why the debate? Evolution verses Creation. Think about it.
To the Evolutionists I say: What could possibly evolve prior to existing? Could existence grow before existence existed?
To the Creationists I say: Can you justify to me why your God’s intentions are to never be surprised, and always knowing everything? Why do you want your God to be so bored? Further more how could there be “Free Will” in a predetermined existence?

Here is some food for thought for you bible quoting parrots: Why is it when someone presents you with facts that run contrary to your current belief systems do you automatically allow your fears and hates and prejudices overwhelm you and take over the driver’s seat in your heads? If your faith was just a fraction of what was required to utilize love and truth you would be able to step up with your bible and use some deductive reasoning to bring logic to the table.

Imagine humanity being so vain, arrogant and presumptuous to assume that communications emitted from this planet could not encounter some time warp phenomenon in space (worm hole/black hole) that through the encoded light (radio waves) into the path of a civilization that actually existed millions of years ago, or for that matter encounter a civilization in the future that can traverse time.

Imagine if ants were to evolve. They are Unitarians, that is pretty self evident through observing their actions and behaviors. They are organized from the bottom up and everyone serves each other’s collective will. So, if they could communicate and were to speak to one individual in a species, they would probably presume that the individual of the species spoke for the entire species, because they know no different.

Bible quoting parrots: Can’t you use your book to prove the Earth is far older than a few thousand years?

Here is a cracker, my dear Polly,

Moses asked a question to an entity that probably had been around for awhile. He asked this bush “Who shall I say sent me when pharaoh asks?” He asked the name of God. He asked infinity’s consciousness to define itself. Communication is many forms. What if what we are enduring is time phi’d, what if what we are enduring is the answer to the question?

40 years is the time the word of the bible says (And the word is God) is how long Moses led the Israelites through the wilderness.

How many days is this? Well, since the Earth is slowing its spin, their would have been more days in the year awhile back. But, we’ll stick to the 365.

40 x 365 = 14,600

However your book also says: “Each day of man is equal to 1,000 years in the eyes of God”

So according to this plausible (not impossible) scenario that would make the Earth at least 14,600,000 years old.

For people who like links, here are arguments for both sides to continue to bang their heads over:




ourworld.compuserve.com...



www.allaboutcreation.org...

Radiometric dating is the primary dating scheme employed by scientists to determine the age of the earth. In a nutshell, this is how it works: atoms are generally regarded as the smallest unit of matter; everything is made of atoms. Atoms consist of protons, neutrons and electrons. An "element" is a substance made up of atoms which have the same number of protons. However, if these atoms have too many or too few neutrons, the element is unstable and will decay. The unstable element will eventually decay into a stable element. Radiometric dating techniques utilize this natural decay process by measuring how long it takes for the unstable element to decay into a stable element and by measuring how much stable element has been produced by the unstable element, thus determining how long the unstable element has been decaying. An age is then transferred to the specimen of rock containing the measured elements. The popular age of 4.6 billion years old for the planet earth was derived by applying radiometric dating techniques to a meteorite called "allende" (a-yen-day), which scientists assume formed at the same time as the earth. However, this date is not conclusive.

www.pathlights.com...

First off Wow what a bait feast there ET Your introduction seems to try to create an even playing field for both sides but.... calling all beleivers in Creationism / Christianity parrots is going a bit overboard.
But let's see if I can help shed some light on your questions from a parrot's point of view

To the Creationists I say: Can you justify to me why your God’s intentions areHere is some food for thought for you bible quoting parrots: Why is it when someone presents you with facts that run contrary to your current belief systems do you automatically allow your fears and hates and prejudices overwhelm y to never be surprised, and always knowing everything? Why do you want your God to be so bored? Further more how could there be “Free Will” in a predetermined existence?

Who says everything is predetermined? Where did you get that? It is not written in the Bible. Can somone be "All-Knowing" and yet allow things to proceede / develop at it's own pace, one word answer---Yes. You state that being all-knowing would be boring, let me give you an allegory, I love to work with wood. It is a calming , relaxing activity where the process to making the end product is much more rewarding than just having the end result quickly.

Here is some food for thought for you bible quoting parrots: Why is it when someone presents you with facts that run contrary to your current belief systems do you automatically allow your fears and hates and prejudices overwhelm you and take over the driver’s seat in your heads? If your faith was just a fraction of what was required to utilize love and truth you would be able to step up with your bible and use some deductive reasoning to bring logic to the table.

Nice paintbrush there, painting everyone as one. Faith is something that is in constant need of coddling as it goes against Man's baser instincts.
These facts that you present, what are they? why cannot they be discussed, analysised and debated? Many a "fact" has been disproven later on. Let us not forget our Piltdown Man he was considered to be the missing link for nearly half a century before it was proven to be a fake. So questioning of "facts" should always be allowed and encouraged.
Also this question that you present can be turned around. Why is it that someone who has these "facts" are so desperate to discredit others who question their "facts"

Imagine humanity being so vain, arrogant and presumptuous to assume that communications emitted from this planet could not encounter some time warp phenomenon in space (worm hole/black hole) that through the encoded light (radio waves) into the path of a civilization that actually existed millions of years ago, or for that matter encounter a civilization in the future that can traverse time.

Humans are vain, that is a given fact. The ideal of communications if ever accomplished has already been theorized as taking centuries or more to travel between star systems, so you point here is?

Imagine if ants were to evolve. They are Unitarians, that is pretty self evident through observing their actions and behaviors. They are organized from the bottom up and everyone serves each other’s collective will. So, if they could communicate and were to speak to one individual in a species, they would probably presume that the individual of the species spoke for the entire species, because they know no different.

And the point here is? There are many forms of communications, who's to say that we (or they) would even be able to recognize the other's communications method?

Bible quoting parrots: Can’t you use your book to prove the Earth is far older than a few thousand years?

I have answered this a few times and you kindof sortof answer it yourself.
The word in Genesis that has been interpeted / translated to mean "days" actually has multiple meanings, one of which means ERA which has not limited definition so the "One Day" could actually be 1 day or 1 million years.
But this is only from a parrot so take it with a grain of salt I guess.

Here is a cracker, my dear Polly,

Moses asked a question to an entity that probably had been around for awhile. He asked this bush “Who shall I say sent me when pharaoh asks?” He asked the name of God. He asked infinity’s consciousness to define itself. Communication is many forms. What if what we are enduring is time phi’d, what if what we are enduring is the answer to the question?

Again, what is the problem with asking.... is that not what you are doing? The last part of this statement is a bit circular so I am not sure what you are looking for here.

40 years is the time the word of the bible says (And the word is God) is how long Moses led the Israelites through the wilderness.

Actually the word used in this section of the Bible only had one meaning so 40 years was most likely 40 years.
Now Can this Polly have a Cracker?

No you can't have a cracker. You never just quoted the bible without offering your personal thoughts.

The parrots are the ones who merely quote the bible as fact and offer no supporting thought or viewpoint.

The parrots are the ones who tell us what the bible is saying from thier own mindset. A mindset that usually offers only two perspectives because of human nature being what it is: "Self preservation".

Self = "me me me me me"
Pre = before, prior to, before all else
serve = to serve, to love, to do anything for the benefit of anyone prior to one's own self.

This instinct usually offers only two viewpoints to consider:

1) What can this do for me, how does this benefit me?
2) What are the negative consequences, how can this take anything i value away from me, and how can this harm me.

The actions and behaviors of this planet demonstrate that the primary ideologies of mankind is:
1) lead followers
2) follow leaders

or .. . . ..
1) serve conquerers
2) conquer conquers

The only way anyone can justify their hate for anyone is because of the fear they have that that which they hate has the potential to take something/someone they love away from them.

When people judge or hold up for comparison anything they are usually comparing it to what they know as truth, which is still the observations made from the standpoint of fear and hate and "I am self first before i serve anything or anyone".

Now why would you think you are a parrot when you did not repeat what has been repeated for thousands of years, but actually stated your mind, not out of fear or hate, but out of your love for your own truth.

You aren't a parrot, you are a shepard in sheep's clothing.

Thanks for the contribution. I'll ponder your point of view and your thoughts.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Why the debate? Evolution verses Creation. Think about it.
To the Evolutionists I say: What could possibly evolve prior to existing? Could existence grow before existence existed?

I guess you should probably say that to naturalists or materialists... not to be picky but to be fair many "evolutionists" have no problem with belief in a creator. But otherwise a good question. I don't really have an adequate answer, who does? But it's my belief that GOD always was... so far as what 'jumped off' the universe we know (space/time, matter/energy) i'm open to interpretations.

To the Creationists I say: (1)Can you justify to me why your God’s intentions are to never be surprised, and always knowing everything? (2)Why do you want your God to be so bored? (3)Further more how could there be “Free Will” in a predetermined existence?

(1)Why do I believe that GOD is all-knowing? I don't know that i could answer that without "parrotting my bible" to use your vernacular. I guess i'd have to admit that i don't really "know". I guess He's GOD after all if not omnipotent then how would you describe him? ...another good question btw. I found a page on this that you may appreciate.

www.errantskeptics.org...

Theologians, teachers, and preachers like me take great delight in making up all sorts of big, long, important and technical-sounding words to describe what are, in reality, rather simple, straightforward faith-concepts. One of these terms is Omnipotence. It is built from two words: Omni, which means “all;” and potent, which means “powerful.” When we speak of God’s power and strength, God’s creative majesty and wonder, we are speaking about God’s Omnipotence ... the ability of God to do that which God wants to do. Sometimes Christians, and even non-Christians, will try to claim that omnipotence means “the power to do absolutely anything.” This is somewhat misleading, as we shall subsequently see, for God’s omnipotence is totally defined by God’s Will, and not by sheer, unadulterated power. Indeed, for classical Christian philosophical theology, omnipotence is simply God’s “ability to do that which God wants done.”

(emphasis Rren)I can dig it, you'd disagree? They have a great quote on that page: "God is God because God is God." That made me smile and yet i'd have to agree.

2)Why would I want GOD to be bored? That's an odd question. I don't want GOD to be bored i guess... you would find omnipotence boring? I think i'd be much more interested in your theory.

3)Is there a free will in a pre-determined existance? Another paradoxial pondering... i suck at these things. You're saying if GOD knows how it's all gonna turn out, what difference do my choices make, yes? I don't know, maybe if only GOD knows it doesn't count.

Interesting questions and you've got me thinking, but i don't see how you're tying these in with the various evo. -vs- creation debates. All you're questions for creationists we're really questions for believers, yes? Or were you looking for the creationist perspective on them? If the latter I don't personally know any "creationist perspective" that's any different than the Christian theological one, ya know. It seems like you're saying all evolutionists are atheists, and all believers don't give nature enough credit (or GOD too much?)... i realize this may just be "for arguments sake", but i think you made some rather sweeping generalizations that don't have a basis in reality. Atleast not mine that is.

Me and kenshiro share similar beliefs about the Genesis account and the age of the earth (creationism), so i won't parrot him... just throw 'em a

Your issues here seem to be with young-earth creationists and 'hardliner' atheists. The former won't leave their Bibles out of this type of a discussion... and why should they?(so don't expect them to respond without it). The latter can always say we don't know the naturalistic explanation of the universe but that don't mean we can't or we won't. You won't refute either imo, especially with philosophical hypothetical mental exercises, ya know.

Interesting none-the-less though.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Why the debate? Evolution verses Creation. Think about it.
To the Evolutionists I say: What could possibly evolve prior to existing? Could existence grow before existence existed?

Okay... one more time.... speaking for the evolution side....

Evolution has nothing to do with abiogenesis.

(sorry for shouting there, but we have a hard time driving this home to folks)

Evolution says nothing about how things came to be. It says how one "kind" (to use the creationist term) produced many diverse "kinds" over the course of billions of years.

Originally posted by Byrd

Evolution has nothing to do with abiogenesis.

(sorry for shouting there, but we have a hard time driving this home to folks)

I deserve to get yelled at. And, like others, sometimes it is the only way I listen.

I concede my ignorance of the word/concept of "abiogenesis".

Thanks for teaching me a new word. I appreciate it.

However your book also says: “Each day of man is equal to 1,000 years in the eyes of God”

So according to this plausible (not impossible) scenario that would make the Earth at least 14,600,000 years old.

For people who like links, here are arguments for both sides to continue to bang their heads over:

you got it backwards. "1000 years of man is equal to one day in the eyes of god."

argument denied.

you got it backwards. "1000 years of man is equal to one day in the eyes of god."

argument denied.

Fair enough.


So, is the math changed by this? I guess it depends upon the perspective.




[edit on 22-12-2005 by Esoteric Teacher]

3)Is there a free will in a pre-determined existance? Another paradoxial pondering... i suck at these things. You're saying if GOD knows how it's all gonna turn out, what difference do my choices make, yes? I don't know, maybe if only GOD knows it doesn't count.

Think about it... If sumone were to know how everything is going to turn out then it wouwldn't matter what choice you made. You could make a choice and change it in two second's from your veiwpoint. BUT, from the viewpoint of whoever know's everything, they already knew it was going to happen. In my eye's that would mean everything is predetermined. You can't have a non predetermined universe AND sumone who know's how it's all going to turn out. Either it's allready known how thing's are till the end (predetermined) or if he exist's, then he has no damn clue wth is going on (non predetermined)

the idea isnt that god knows what you are going to do imho, its the idea that he knows all that is, was or can be. its the idea that he may know all the possible outcomes of any choice you can ever make (quantum physics), but he doesnt know what choice you will make. free will and all the like.