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Intolerance Of Intolerance Is Tolerance; If You Disagree, You're Just Being Intolerant.

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posted on Dec, 13 2005 @ 11:53 AM
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One of our members sagely and progressively explained in this post that all Christians are bigots and therefore are deserving of intolerance. The circular reasoning of this statement, so plainly stated, was a little refreshing/ I've heard the argument on many occasions, but I'd never seen someone be so blatantly hypocritical in one paragraph before. The honesty of the position was nice.

Let's take a look at this mentality, though. First off, saying all Christians are bigots is...Well, let's just say that you're grouping every individual who believes in Christ in the same boat without knowing them, and there were no qualifiers. This wasn't, "most" Christians, this was all of them. Again, I'm sure we've all heard this before. The claim is that Christians, by their very religion, are intolerant of those who are different in one way or another. Is this an accurate statement?

To answer this, we'll have to look at the Bible. After all, it is the driving manual for the Christian life, and if Christians are told to be intolerant in the Bible, it is a fair assessment that Christians are all intolerant. If you aren't intolerant, you're not being a real Christian. So where in the Bible does it command Christians to be intolerant?

Naturally, we have to understand that Christians believe in a New Covenant that supercedes the old. Christ came and fulfilled the law, negating the Old Covenant's rules except where Christ points out otherwise. He was, after all, the originator of this new promise to humanity. The Epistles, Acts and Revelation are fair game, too, as they were written by professing and prominent Christians shortly after Christ had come to Earth. So we can assume that Peter, Paul, James and all the others speak for Christianity.

One of the big areas of intolerance Christians are attacked on is on the issue of homosexuality. Christians, generally, are adamant that they believe a homosexual lifestyle to be a deviant lifestyle against that which God wants us to live. Does the Bible support this position, though, or has it simply been a clever spin put on by a political party? Turns out it is in the Bible, 1 Corinthians 6:9 specifically states that homosexuality is wrong. Uh oh...That doesn't look very good for the “Christians aren't intolerant” argument...Right?

Wrong. A Christian who is truly following what Christ commanded us to do is incapable of intolerance. Intolerance, according to Christ, is a sin. Where does that come from, you ask? It is actually a compilation of verses that have been summarized into a seven word statement: Hate the sin, but love the sinner. How can a Christian, following that doctrine, hate an individuals for a sin when they themselves sin and were saved by Christ while a sinner?

So why all the noise about homosexuality? We are called to be tolerant and love, as Christians, all of our neighbors on this spinning blue globe, but that doesn't mean we are called to accept the behavior.

For example, do you love anyone who is perfect? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say no, you don't, unless you're talking about the divine. Your closest friend, your child(ren), your spouse, your parents, your siblings are all loved by you, but there are things about them that you don't like all that much. Does that mean you don't love them? No, absolutely not. As a parent, should you be tolerant of your son's deviant behavior of breaking windows? No, you chastise him, you rebuke him, and you punish him, all the while never failing to love him. You are tolerant of him (if you weren't, you'd put him up for adoption or try to do a very late term abortion), but you are not accepting of his behavior.

So are Christians intolerant? I'm sure some are, but the Bible commands us not to be. Are Christians accepting of all behaviors? No, we believe in right and wrong, not moral relativity. If you condemn us for that, you must condemn every parent who ever punished their children for behaviors the parents didn't want the children to have. You also must condemn everyone who thinks murder is bad, who thinks stealing is bad, and who thinks war is bad, because they are not being accepting of another's behavior. Chances are, you, too, must be condemned by the same standard you would try to hold Christians to. To do otherwise would make you a hypocrite.




posted on Dec, 13 2005 @ 04:41 PM
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This doesn't seem like a political conspiracy to me. Though if I'm wrong, please point out what is the conspiracy here.



posted on Dec, 13 2005 @ 04:56 PM
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Intolerance is Ignorance matured.



posted on Dec, 13 2005 @ 05:51 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake

... If you condemn us for that, you must condemn every parent who ever punished their children for behaviors the parents didn't want the children to have. You also must condemn everyone who thinks murder is bad, who thinks stealing is bad, and who thinks war is bad, because they are not being accepting of another's behavior. Chances are, you, too, must be condemned by the same standard you would try to hold Christians to. To do otherwise would make you a hypocrite.


Right, because only Christians hold murder and theft as morally wrong. Christians are our parents they know best. They are right and everyone else is wrong. I don't condem Christians for holding the view that homsexuality is a sin . That is your perogative. I condem them because they view homosexuality as morally wrong, as a weakness, as something that can be "fixed" when it clearly cannot. I condem them becasue they want to force a less then perfect education on my children by holding back real science in favour of religous teachings. I condem them because they have long sordid history of persecution, I condem them because they want to tell me what I can do with my body.

"Christianity on the other hand is bigoted from the very start. Christians beleive that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven, that your willingness or unwillingness to accept Jesus determines whether you end up in heaven or hell for all eternity, and that everyone who doesn't accept Jesus is automatically condemned to Hell. " Shakyheir


This comment by ShakyaHeir really sums it up though. As a Christian you believe that I as a non Christian will got to hell. You believe that it is not works but faith that makes you a Christian therefore even though Gahndi was a great humanitarian and helped bring independance to India he went to hell when he died. Fundemenatlly that is what you believe. If Hitler "accepted jesus as his personal saviour" before he blew his brains out then he is frolicking in heaven with the angels and jesus.

This, to me, smells of a conspiracy. Religion as morphine for the masses sums it up. There is no greater way to control people then by giving them something to live and die for. Its the same promise given to suicide killers: Do this for god and you will go to heaven. Accept Jesus and no matter what you do you will go to heaven.

Kindest regards and many thanks for the intresting post

D



posted on Dec, 13 2005 @ 06:00 PM
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but the argument that intolerance is intolerant of other people's MORALS is a rationale for persucting those 'OTHER' people who don't conform to the CHRISTIAN's morals. So they are more SELF_RIGHTOUS and intolerant. Circular logic- no? If only those 'other' people would conform to OUR morals......

the whole basis of this argument for or against homosexuality is based on MAN"S interpretation of a BIBLE that was written by MAN. So the cultural rules have changed over the centuries....so what? Moral relativity is an oxymoron.

Christians that I personally know are not hypocrites, Nor are they trying to press their value and moral system on those of us who do not want to. They are truly 'tolerant' Therefore, I am not a Christian 'hater' I simply do not like what the press, media, and individual hypocrites whining about being persecuted are doing to America. If i wanted to go to church, I am free to do so. If y'all want to have a BIble meeting at the restaraunt, YOU are free to do so. If you want to push your beliefs on me at work or in the legal system, or in government - you are worse than telemarketers- its totally unsolicited.

Not Accepting the behavior of homosexuals(you label it deviant) seems to be your main beef. You say it is unacceptable. Aren't we all sinners in the eyes of the Lord? Is the 15 minutes in the bedroom your only concern about deviant behavior? Or do you want everyone to follow your rules that were written in a book by men thousands of years ago?

Right and wrong- moral relativity- blah, blah, blah. I want to know how you came to have faith, how your spirituality sustains you, I want to know how Christians and Jews and Hindus and Muslims can love one another- without tearing down others' beliefs and morals. Faith is too hard to come by to be torn down.
Maybe the bigot word just simplified the way the churches are organized. If you want to join the club, you have to listen to the spiel, and convince the other members that you truly believe it. Bigots are not just intolerant, they are unreasonably intolerant even when their prejudices are false . BEcause the christian club unifies your belief systems especially when they are challenged- you become unreasonable intolerant, but rightous about your challenged belief system. so bigot=rightous? Kind of reminds me of when if you are challenged and you are wrong- you get defensive. And the more you are defensive- the more unreasonable you are about it....



posted on Dec, 13 2005 @ 06:34 PM
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Originally posted by apocalypta

Originally posted by Shakyheir
"Christianity on the other hand is bigoted from the very start. Christians beleive that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven, that your willingness or unwillingness to accept Jesus determines whether you end up in heaven or hell for all eternity, and that everyone who doesn't accept Jesus is automatically condemned to Hell. "

This comment by ShakyaHeir really sums it up though. As a Christian you believe that I as a non Christian will got to hell. You believe that it is not works but faith that makes you a Christian therefore even though Gahndi was a great humanitarian and helped bring independance to India he went to hell when he died. Fundemenatlly that is what you believe. If Hitler "accepted jesus as his personal saviour" before he blew his brains out then he is frolicking in heaven with the angels and jesus.


You know what? Who cares what Christians think? So what if they are intolerant? So what if they believe that you are going to hell if you don't believe like they do? What does it matter to you what they think about you? They're just a bunch of narrow-minded, intolerant hypocrites anyway. They aren't worth listening to or discussing in polite society. They're not even worth the time it takes to condemn them. I mean, because after all, they have the unmitigated gall to not see that your views on homosexuality, morality, evolution, and the nature of the universe are the one and only truths. Worse than that, they think it is OK to attempt to teach their nonsensical ravings to others. Your intolerance of their intolerance is clearly a sign of your superior reasoning and the superiority of your moral compass.

But then again, in the end, it doesn't matter what I think, you think, or anyone else thinks. In the end, all that matters is what God thinks. If He is as intolerant of sin as Christians believe that He is, then all your reasoning, pontificating, and condemnations won't matter for a hill of beans. You can shake your fist at God all you want. He is God and you are mortal.

plato.stanford.edu...



posted on Dec, 13 2005 @ 07:15 PM
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Originally posted by ChemicalLaser

You know what? Who cares what Christians think?

....... I care because the country I love is being run by people who claim to be Christians.. ( sorry, had to go there)


Originally posted by ChemicalLaserI mean, because after all, they have the unmitigated gall to not see that your views on homosexuality, morality, evolution, and the nature of the universe are the one and only truths. ......



Not my views, any ones views which differ from their God's. I value all views on all subjects, I think there is some truth to many philosophies, I do not believe my way is the only way to heaven. I believe that as intelligent and conscious beings we should give ourselves some credit for actually knowing the difference between right and wrong. Christians aren't the only ones who know that secret...There are somethings that we just know are wrong ( murder, theft,ect) There are some things we just know are right ( two people in love, turning the other cheek, helping your neighbor, ) we don't need any religon to tell us that.




... If He is as intolerant of sin as Christians believe that He is, then all your reasoning, pontificating, and condemnations won't matter for a hill of beans. .....

And neither will my good works. I can get "saved" and never have to worry about being "good" again since then I am forgiven for everything....

You are probably thinking I have a grudge towards Christianity, and maybe I do. But I also have issues with Islam, Buddhism, JWs, LDS, Hindu, if its organized, I don't like it!

Pascals wager: If God is incomprehensible then how do Christians know they are the true religion? The odds are that a god exsists, the problems is we do not know which one.

So please, I don't mean to pontificate ( really had to look that up since I thought I knew what it meant...lol). I enjoy talking religion but have no intrest in being converted.

kindest regards

D







posted on Dec, 13 2005 @ 09:17 PM
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Originally posted by apocalypta

Originally posted by ChemicalLaserI mean, because after all, they have the unmitigated gall to not see that your views on homosexuality, morality, evolution, and the nature of the universe are the one and only truths. ......


Not my views, any ones views which differ from their God's. I value all views on all subjects, I think there is some truth to many philosophies, I do not believe my way is the only way to heaven.


I guess that would make you God. Because you are using your logic and reasoning to tell yourself and others what is true and what is false. You are placing your faith in yourself. That's ballsy dude. Congrats.




... If He is as intolerant of sin as Christians believe that He is, then all your reasoning, pontificating, and condemnations won't matter for a hill of beans. .....

And neither will my good works. I can get "saved" and never have to worry about being "good" again since then I am forgiven for everything....


Then you also misunderstand what being saved means. Jesus' did not teach this and neither did Paul in his Epistles. He specifically addresses that very concept.



You are probably thinking I have a grudge towards Christianity, and maybe I do. But I also have issues with Islam, Buddhism, JWs, LDS, Hindu, if its organized, I don't like it!


Sounds to me like your issue is with authority more than with organized religion. Again, you are placing your faith in yourself and your ability to reason, rejecting the thought that there is a God whose thoughts are above and beyond your own.

Have you read the OT? What about the parts where the OT prophets talk about the pot critisizing the potter?



Pascals wager: If God is incomprehensible then how do Christians know they are the true religion? The odds are that a god exsists, the problems is we do not know which one.


Because they believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and it states as much.

Another interpretation of Pascal's wager is that if one believes Christianity and is wrong (i.e. Taoism is correct, for example) then very little is lost. But on the other hand, if you "bet" on another religion and Christianity is right, then you are lost. Not one of my favorite apologetic arguements, but it makes an interesting point.



posted on Dec, 14 2005 @ 01:50 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake
Let's take a look at this mentality, though. First off, saying all Christians are bigots is...Well, let's just say that you're grouping every individual who believes in Christ in the same boat without knowing them, and there were no qualifiers. This wasn't, "most" Christians, this was all of them. Again, I'm sure we've all heard this before. The claim is that Christians, by their very religion, are intolerant of those who are different in one way or another. Is this an accurate statement?


No. I've known quite a few Christians who weren't bigoted in the least. On the other hand, I'm not sure you would agree with me (and them) that they were Christian. They also did not believe in the infallibility of the Bible, or that non-Christian religions were false, or in Hell.

If people like this, who say they are Christian, are, in your view, genuinely Christian, then the answer to your question above is a resounding no. If they are not -- then I'm afraid it might be yes.



To answer this, we'll have to look at the Bible. After all, it is the driving manual for the Christian life, and if Christians are told to be intolerant in the Bible, it is a fair assessment that Christians are all intolerant.


Hmm. I think maybe you've answered my question there. Not all Christians (or not all people who call themselves Christian anyway) agree with you that the Bible is "the driving manual for Christian life." But, if I may so interpret your statement, apparently you don't think that people who think otherwise are actually Christian. If I've misunderstood you, please do set me straight.



One of the big areas of intolerance Christians are attacked on is on the issue of homosexuality. Christians, generally, are adamant that they believe a homosexual lifestyle to be a deviant lifestyle against that which God wants us to live. Does the Bible support this position, though, or has it simply been a clever spin put on by a political party? Turns out it is in the Bible, 1 Corinthians 6:9 specifically states that homosexuality is wrong. Uh oh...That doesn't look very good for the “Christians aren't intolerant” argument...Right?

Wrong. A Christian who is truly following what Christ commanded us to do is incapable of intolerance. Intolerance, according to Christ, is a sin. . . . So why all the noise about homosexuality? We are called to be tolerant and love, as Christians, all of our neighbors on this spinning blue globe, but that doesn't mean we are called to accept the behavior. . . .

As a parent, should you be tolerant of your son's deviant behavior of breaking windows? No, you chastise him, you rebuke him, and you punish him, all the while never failing to love him. You are tolerant of him (if you weren't, you'd put him up for adoption or try to do a very late term abortion), but you are not accepting of his behavior.


Intolerance takes many forms. By the way, breaking windows was not a very good example. May I substitute, say, drug use for window-breaking? Same principle, but we avoid harm done to others that way.

OK. You find your teenage son or daughter is drinking or doing other drugs. It is proper for you, in your role as a parent, to regulate this sort of behavior and not to tolerate it.

Now. You find that your adult neighbor down the street also drinks and/or smokes pot. Is it proper for you, in your role as a neighbor, to regulate this neighbor's behavior and not tolerate it? Most people would say it is not.

One form of intolerance is to assume a role that is improper for your relationship to another person, to act as if you were that person's parent and he or she your minor child, when that is not the case. You may feel you "love" the other person; you may feel that your quasi-parental chastisement is done for the other person's own good. But you are still behaving, in terms of the norms of civilized behavior, improperly. You are not recognizing the other person as equal to yourself in authority, or in fact superior to you in authority over that person's own life, and you are, without validity, claiming for yourself the right to interfere.

The belief many Christians have that their Scripture is literally written by God, and that they may refer to their own beliefs, based on that Scripture, as "God's beliefs," encourages precisely this sort of attitude. In the broadest sense, that attitude by itself may be considered intolerant. In a narrower sense, any action based on that attitude is certainly intolerant, even if saying that the attitude itself is might be going too far.

Thus: a "hate the sin, love the sinner" attitude directed by (some, not all) Christians towards homosexuality is, ipso facto, intolerant, especially when accompanied by action such as an attempt to influence the law through political action or voting.



posted on Dec, 14 2005 @ 02:05 PM
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Howsabout this one:

HUMANS are intolerant. It clearly isn't just Christians. You atheists who claim to hate bigotry, and categorically lump all Christians into the category of bigots, are f'ing hilarious-- "I hate bigots", in one permutation or another, is the paradoxical dogma of your faithless beliefs.

I am not a Christian, and I am a very intolerant man. I tolerate homosexuals and minorities with unerring equinamity, but to be frank anybody that honestly thinks their own beliefs have any merit whatsoever is in my opinion a holdover from the days of algae and trilobytes. It's time we all woke up and realized that not one of us has any idea whatsoever what is right and wrong, what is true and what is not, and that our efforts in clinging to these beliefs are what is causing the downfall of society.

It isn't Christians, it isn't Jews, it isn't atheists. The problem is inflexibility, the inability to adapt to a universe that demands constant change. Until we suck it up and admit that each and every one of us is more than likely wrong, things aren't going to get any better.



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