Chavez Ships Discounted Heating Oil to Needy US Families

Originally posted by FEMA
"Get off the crack." I, somehow, expected better of you than an ad hominem attack in which you trying to impinge my character in an effort to dismiss my point. I was wrong.

Before you storm off so offended, please reread. "Get off the crack" was within the quotes of what needs said to anyone heating their home on oil. Crack being a metaphor I used for the addiction to oil. No direct assault on your character. I do not insinuate you are a crackhead. I insinuate that attempting to sustainably stay warm in New England on petro is crackheaded.

I'm a firefighter.

Admittedly, your saying that made me recount my logic. You have a strong point. However... Steven Covey still applies.

The more of your career that you spend increasing the awareness of those around you of the hazards of fire, fire safety, collaborating with localities on fire safe building codes, and teaching folks not to build in areas where forests cyclically reburn... the less smokey hell holes the next generation of firefighters will have to climb into. Can you see that truth? Chavez sat tight on the issue of the oncoming NE heating oil crisis until the fire bell rang. Then he was there in an instant... in hero's clothes. That is just a little too 'lawyer at the scene of an accident' for me.

When compared to the average firefighter I would hope that a world leader whould be focusing an even greater percentage of their time on improving future conditions for the next generation. Focusing on "important, but not urgent" activities. The cold people in NE will survive with or without Chavez's oil donation. New englanders know blankets and thermals underwear. With it however they will be lulled into believing they can go on like this. I say it is better for them to experience a little cold weather camping.

It is not like Chavez offered this oil to help the US fuel machinery to dig subterrainian homes that are held at a constant 62 F by natural forces. That would be an act of admirable high minded compassion and making use of resources for social equity rather than immediate consumption.

It is more wise to teach a man to fish, than to feed them fish when they are hungry. Especially when they are hungry.

I know... say that to the man in the burning building screaming "help me"

A Parable from The Sutra of The Lotus Flower of the Wonderful Law

"I shall give you these three vehicles, make an effort to run out of this triple world."

Sri Oracle



[edit on 29-12-2005 by Sri Oracle]

"Before you storm off so offended . . . "

I was not offended in the least, I really did respond to an MVA. Firefighters in general have pretty thick skin, but we are cursed with a sensitivity equal to our powers of perception (a recipe for heartbreak.)

"The more of your career that you spend increasing the awareness of those around you of the hazards of fire, fire safety, collaborating with localities on fire safe building codes, and teaching folks not to build in areas where forests cyclically reburn... the less smokey hell holes the next generation of firefighters will have to climb into.

Interesting that you bring up these points. I am a trainer/facilitator who does just that. I further teach the S-102 Wild Fire Suppression course. Why? Because I can't afford to "Allow them to suffer their fate."

Admittedly, your saying that made me recount my logic. You have a strong point.

I am *utterly and honestly* heartened that you reviewed your logic. Your statement sincerely warms my heart as it would that of any humanitarian along with my vocational counterparts.

"Chavez sat tight on the issue of the oncoming NE heating oil crisis until the fire bell rang. Then he was there in an instant... in hero's clothes.

In my line of work I can't afford to make that call. All I can do is determine if help arrived or not. My point all along is one of pointing out that help would be arriving and that help is a good thing. The motivation of the sender does not diminish the benefit of his action to those in utter need. Those were, and continue to be, my only two points. They are quite seperate from the political or motivational aspects of why Chavez decided to send help and thus may be the *only issue* between us - perspective.

My friend, you can take this to the bank: I would fight an army of men to save your life. To do anything less, well, I could not live with myself. EMTs, police, firefighters are no different than the average Joe, never let anyone tell you different. We are simply tied and bound by a thread of humanity that will never allow us to turn our backs.

Into the dragon's mouth I'll walk for thee.

Originally posted by FEMA
Interesting that you bring up these points. I am a trainer/facilitator who does just that. I further teach the S-102 Wild Fire Suppression course. Why? Because I can't afford to "Allow them to suffer their fate."

God bless. That is righteous thinking. Leave nothing undone.

I am *utterly and honestly* heartened that you reviewed your logic.

This oracle has an admittedly over active third eye... sometimes you have to keep the hallucinations in check. I have been told I live in a dream world.

The motivation of the sender does not diminish the benefit of his action to those in utter need.

I would adjust that statement to read: The motivation of the sender does not diminish the accute benefits of his actions to those in utter need. Sure, they'll stay toasty warm this winter. As the deck of cards plays itself out however, the motivation (true desire) of the sender will show its head. Does the damage to the world due to the burning of yet another ship full of oil outweigh the loss of a couple of dozen lifes due to cold in an area where millions try to heat their homes solely with fossil fuels regardless of the long term financial and ecological impossibility? I don't know... a dozen lives is a very valuable thing. On the other hand another ship full of pollution certainly doesn't help aunt sally's cancer.

swami nikihilananda
An ignorant person regards a desire as a friend when he is craving its fulfilment, but realizes it to be an enemy when he discovers that suffering alone is the after-effect of enjoyment. But a wise man, even before suffering the consequence of a desire, knows it to be an evil; he does not have to wait for the result.

Aparigraha is the virtue of denying unnecessary gifts. "No thank you" I say on behalf of my people. We'll suffer this winter in the cold and make preperations to live off the energy grid in coming years. I proclaim this as a voice of the unaligned new movement some call "New Puritan". We demand organic food. We avoid plastics and oil. We use hand tools. We know the shortcomings of consumerism and can invision its impending collapse.

My friend, you can take this to the bank: I would fight an army of men to save your life. To do anything less, well, I could not live with myself....Into the dragon's mouth I'll walk for thee.

Thanks and praises.

My friend, you can take this to the bank: I crawl along the razor's edge for thee.
and on the days I'm about to slip off... I'm usually considering something like how much energy could be saved if someone accidentally cut off the electricity to my block for a few hours.

Oracle

[edit on 29-12-2005 by Sri Oracle]

I have been told I live in a dream world.

I would not make that assertion. Your comments, when taken in the context of political agendas ussurping the general good of people, hold to be mostly true.

After all, most politicians will gleefully agree to lead the parade that bears news of a new oil deal, a new nuclear plant, a new coal fired hydro utility, but are generally nowhere to be found when funding for R&D of new, clean and sustainable technologies is needed. But once those new technologies hit the street, watch those politicians line up to lead that parade.

In short, you're right with regard to the political landscape of today.

This also might hearten you. I once ran for a political position wherein I could directly affect how garbage would be handled in this area. I opted for a PEM system - Plasma Enhanced Melter. Such a system virtually destroys everything fed into it leaving a minimal amount of 100%-inert solids that can be ground into road material. There is no air polution created - certainly none by comparison to that of typical incinceration. In fact, material/ash from those incinerators is sent to PEM systems to be completely destroyed. Moreover, the heat generated by the burning of garbage in a PEM system can be turned into hydro electric power and fed back into the grid.

My proposal was one of handling garbage in a responsible manner by using a PEM system, and at the same time fueling it will garbage slated to go into landfill sites thereby leaving the land alone. Also, I proposed digging up the older land fill sites to have that garbage burned thus fueling the ability of the PEM system to supply clean hydro electric power all the while cleaning up the environment in doing so.

Funny, people thought that the trucking of the garbage - from the old dumps - would cost too much. The reality of the situation was that they are going to pay for that garbage, and what it finally does to their water/environment, one way or the other. They didn't get it.

They thought that the cost of the PEM system might be too much. I pointed out that handling garbage costs money any way, and handling it imporperly costs far more than they know. That revenue could be gained from other townships looking for a place to get rid of their garbage. That the dumping tax gained (they call it a tipping charge) from those townships wanting to get rid of their garbage would fund the project on a very short ROI (return on investment.) Also, those townships would be cleaner as a result of them sending their trash to our township --- that such an action would, in effect, be sending our township fuel to supply lower cost hydro electric power, not to mention provide badly needed employment for our area.

The people decided to look at the older incineration system. They soon came to discover that they had to pay to have the ash disposed of and that the air quality coming from that incineration system was not good at all.

Millions of dollars later, and a few politicians now claiming that it was their brain child, they are looking at the PEM system - go figure.

Chavez is a socialist pretending to be democratically elected. Giving this oil to the poor is a ploy. He wants to unite the poor in the Americas against capitalism just as he's done in his own country. Those protest in Venezuela had even larger counter protest by the poor folk that were helped when he instituted his socialist agenda.

Giving poor folk in the US heating oil is only the beginning of his attack on the capitalistic system in our country. The poor far out weigh the rich and even those that are comfortably middle class. If you have the poor on your team your options are limitless. He's seen this in his own country and now he's spreading his message throughout our hemisphere.

Still, its a good thing that he's doing. It would serve the capitalist in this country to take a page from his book if they want to survive his attacks.

This is about lifestyle. If poor americans really wanted to be warm they'd pitch a teepee in the back yard and get a campfire going.

on a side note...this guy doesn't live in the midwest cause aint no campfire gone keep you warm when there's a foot of snow on the ground and temperature is a couple a degrees below zero. The natives that lived in this land migrated to their "winter homes". Bottom line, you'd better have someway to heat your house up here are you will die.

Originally posted by Saphronia
this guy doesn't live in the midwest cause aint no campfire gone keep you warm when there's a foot of snow on the ground and temperature is a couple a degrees below zero.

A campfire will, in the wood burning stove or properly built fireplace, of a 500 sqft log home keep any man cozy in climate zone 6. My uncle lives like this with his wife and newborn just fine in northern New Jersey. Mom lives 30 minutes away from him and complains about her $600/mo heating bill for her 2800 sqft McMansion with 'beautiful' vaulted ceilings. Gram lives in the same area too... on a fixed government income... would certainly qualify as financially "Needy"... and yet she refuses to light a fire in the solid granite firebox my grandfather buillt for her. When grandpa was alive there were logs stacked at the back door and she could certainly have a stack delivered... It doesn't take a lot to keep the thermal mass (granite) hot once heated. instead she just complains to my uncle that the thermostat on the oil burner just doesn't keep her warm enough. Besides... whatever the bill is... she'll just pay it... The government checks roll in month after month. I love mom and gram... but they impose their own self misery where heating their home is concerned. Mom can do it because dad is a corporate exec who spends 60 hours a week at the office. Gram can do it because the government heavily taxes my log splittin ass so I am forced to pay for her oil even if I do not personally use it.

And yes... I do own 10 acres in Missouri. But until I have a low energy usage home built there... I'm spending my winters in Florida renovating post storm condemned buildings. Monthly energy utility averge for this winter... $30 (one fridge, one computer, a few 13w light bulbs, and a the occasional power tool)

Oracle

Chavez is trying to show the true face of socialism, plus he gets to kick dirt in some faces. Its a win-win for him. While I dont support him entirely, I think playing Robin Hood outside his own borders will do a lot to show the average american that socialism is not evil. If we all took a little from the rich and gave to the needy the world would be a better place. When oil companies are raping us with record profits this year, how is this move bad, despite the ulterior motives? We are taught to love capitalism and all of its facits, yet, how many of us go to bed hungry or cold while some CEO buys another suv? Eventually the system will get out of hand and the people will fight for another. I think an economy that is less dog-eat-dog will only benefit the world.
I apologize if this sounds like a comminist rant. It is not. I just think the guy has gotten a bad rap because of who his friends are. (Castro for example).

Originally posted by Saphronia
Chavez is a socialist pretending to be democratically elected.

- Sorry to break this news to you but Chavez is democratically elected.
(or are you claiming democracy doesn't really count when you get 'the wrong answer'?)

They even had him face an election with so much outside impartial observation and so many verifiable paper trails for auditing it woulda (shoulda) made an American Bushie blush!

Originally posted by DaFunk13
Chavez is trying to show the true face of socialism, plus he gets to kick dirt in some faces. Its a win-win for him. While I dont support him entirely, I think playing Robin Hood outside his own borders will do a lot to show the average american that socialism is not evil. If we all took a little from the rich and gave to the needy the world would be a better place. When oil companies are raping us with record profits this year, how is this move bad, despite the ulterior motives? We are taught to love capitalism and all of its facits, yet, how many of us go to bed hungry or cold while some CEO buys another suv? Eventually the system will get out of hand and the people will fight for another. I think an economy that is less dog-eat-dog will only benefit the world.
I apologize if this sounds like a comminist rant. It is not. I just think the guy has gotten a bad rap because of who his friends are. (Castro for example).

Dude, I already said it, Chavez is also the one of those who are raping you with oil prices. It is his primary income for financing his socialistic policies. And concerning oil companies - their profits are big, but the percentage of profit VS total income stays app the same - 10%. Oil companies have larger profits, but this is relative, it's because oil prices are high. Even if they lowered the price the gasoline prices would be only 10%lower and they would have no profits at all.

Sorry, I didnt read the entire thread, I just added my $.02. I really dont think Chavez was responsible for exxon/mobile or shell making record profits. I may be a bit misinformed, but did oil companies not make an absolutely rediculous profit last year, all the while preaching how times were tough thanks to wars and hurricanes? I saw gasoline, natural gas, and propane prices skyrocket, and oil companies profits soar as well. We arent talking quantum physics here. I am not an economist, but this seems to me like another capitalist rape.
"I think capitalism would work great if it werent for all this damn greed."

The Farmer's Almanac says we're in for a rough cold early winter. I wonder if Chavez is going to donate heating oil to needy Americans again this year.

Does anyone know?


.

It'd be great if he did, and I respect him for what he did, and other
things, but honestly, I would'nt if I was in his shoes.

Since, it does appear that the majority of Americans seem to either;
A. Not know who he is.
B. Thinks he's part of some axis of evil.

But, to be fair, there are those of us who see him in a good light, and
for who he really is, and perhaps he knows that, and will do it again,
or he'll do it again just because he's a good guy.

What last years donation of cheap heating oil really showed was the complete unwillingness of the US government or the big oil companies to participate in the programme. They were invited to do so but ignored the request.

After all, dropping the price of heating oil so the poorer communities can afford to heat their homes may drop the shareholder dividends a couple of percentage points, and they can't have that. But that's capitalism for you, there can never be enough profit.

Originally posted by soficrow
Whatever Chavez' flaws may be, the man does know how to make a point.

"We are committed to working for a hemisphere with less poverty and more development, whether by teaching 1.5 million adults to read in Venezuela or helping Massachusetts residents through a long winter." And he puts his money where his mouth is. Ya gotta love it.

It's a conspiracy to make Big Oil and the Bush administration look bad.

If this is a conspiracy, it is one of the best ones I've seen.

I do believe Chavez has said numerous times that it is not the American people he dislikes but the US government.

I guess this gesture of good will is his way of trying to get the American people to realize his problem isn't with the people but the government.

[edit on 12/9/06 by Keyhole]

.

Yes, Chavez will once again help America's needy:

www.abovetopsecret.com...


Go Chavez.

Sofi I have been over this thread and it bring memories funny that the situation has not change much, just getting a brake because congress elections are so close.

But Yes you are right Chavez is offering his help again for the poor in American that big oil corporations has forgotten about in their greed.

Thats awesome.
First he insults those in power, then he buys goodwill, from those who aren't.

It's showboating, but who cares when you are cold in the winter, right?
We'll take the oil...Or at least those who need it will take it.
Thet're pawns, but they'll be warm pawns!

He doesn't give a crap about the people who are recieving the oil, only that it embarrasses the administration.

I hope he gives even more.

I wonder how his own population is prospering?

Actually Chavez is against our administration because obvious reason, but he is not against the people of the US, why should he be.

He is just proving a point, he showing how he and his small country can help American citizens in need, when our own elected government sits and give all the rights to corporate America over the needs of citizens.

If corporate American care so much about the poor that will need heat during winter why they can not donate some of their outrageous profits and alleviate the poor in our country.

I don't think that the CEOs of the oil companies will be less warmer for giving a helping hand to the poor.

Is that so wrong? and why?

Never did I claim it was wrong.

I'm just saying he's not the philanthropist that he appears to be,
it's for his own personal gain.
I think it's a calculated move on his part.
In the meantime, how is his populace prospering?

Originally posted by spacedoubt
I think it's a calculated move on his part.
In the meantime, how is his populace prospering?

I agree that he is doing this with the intention to make our present administration look bad.

And for the populace check on yourself.

www.venezuelanalysis.com...