NEWS: Bus commuter vs. Big Brother. Papers, please!

I feel like we're missing a big part of the story. I don't know why, but it just seems biased somehow. Maybe that's just how bad it is, that it seems unbelievable.... who knows.

This incident appears on the surface to violate the fourth ammendment to the constitution. However, court rulings over the last few years seem to have chipped away at the provisions of that ammendment--so much so that I'm not sure anymore. There is a case somewhat similar to this incident being heard in the Ninth Circuit Court this December and it may illuminate things further.

A quick summary of the incident involved there is:

On the 4th of July 2002, John Gilmore, American citizen, decided to take a trip from one part of the United States of America to another. He went to Oakland International Airport -- ticket in hand -- and was told he had to produce his ID if he wanted to travel. He asked to see the law demanding he show his 'papers' and was told after a time that the law was secret and no, he wouldn't be allowed to read it.

He hasn't flown in his own country since.

The official transcript of the pre-trial hearing of the case can be read at:

cryptome.org...

There are some interesting precedents and legal arguments put forward in the transcript you might find illustrative to the current incident.

was this a shuttle bus to a federal facility, where everyone on the bus was expecting to show their IDs to the guards?

OR.......

did the bus briefly enter the grounds of the federal facility to pick up and discharge passengers, on its way to make OTHER stops? if so, then this arrest is an abomination and should given wide publicity so that americans who DON'T want a police state can see the warning signs of it, and confront their fellow "americans" who DO want a police state.

expect the phrase "if you've got nothing to hide" to be repeated across the land....mostly by conservatives i'm sad to say.

come on ATS, do you fear someone having a fake ID card or fear them being a genuine terrorist? few low-level terrorists have a criminal history that will trigger red flags when their ID is checked...and THOSE are the people who perpetrate terrorist attacks.

What's to stop someone from saying "Oh, I'm just going to stay on the bus." get let on, and then walk off when they stop somewhere on the facility? You have to show federal id to get onto a federal facility. It's that simple. If you refuse you are either thrown off the bus, or if you argue about it you can be arrested for it.

[edit on 11/26/2005 by Zaphod58]

Originally posted by victor was right
was this a shuttle bus to a federal facility, where everyone on the bus was expecting to show their IDs to the guards?

OR.......

did the bus briefly enter the grounds of the federal facility to pick up and discharge passengers, on its way to make OTHER stops? if so, then this arrest is an abomination and should given wide publicity so that americans who DON'T want a police state can see the warning signs of it, and confront their fellow "americans" who DO want a police state.

The second one! The women in question was not getting off, it was just a stop that the bus makes...which is what makes this all so concerning imo.

expect the phrase "if you've got nothing to hide" to be repeated across the land....mostly by conservatives i'm sad to say.

Can definately see the "McCarthy angle" getting played here...kinda like the patriot act reasoning. If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about...

Originally posted by Zaphod58
What's to stop someone from saying "Oh, I'm just going to stay on the bus." get let on, and then walk off when they stop somewhere on the facility? You have to show federal id to get onto a federal facility. It's that simple. If you refuse you are either thrown off the bus, or if you argue about it you can be arrested for it.

[edit on 11/26/2005 by Zaphod58]

Zaphod what reason did they have to check her ID? They didn't cross check it verse any kind of list...they only want to see if you have one. What's the point? If this place is such a sensitive area what would checking her ID accomplish. They didn't write the info down or cross-check it. I agree you should be able to produce identification when necessary, but i think this crossed a line. I don't like the idea of starting down this slippery slope, do you not see the negative implications to this?

Um, it's ALWAYS been that way. Since before I was born they were checking ID to get onto a federal facility. And you were always expected to produce it or were denied entry. What slipper slope are we starting down? It's been going on for DECADES, just most people actually produce their id. And the new IDs they're using CAN'T be faked. They've been using them since not long after my father retired in 89. This is actually the second change they made to them since he retired.

From Deborah Davis' site: www.papersplease.org...

The bus she rides crosses the property of the Denver Federal Center, a collection of government offices such as the Veterans Administration, the U.S. Geological Survey, and part of the National Archives. The Denver Federal Center is not a high security area: it's not Area 51 or NORAD.

The reason why she was charged has absolutely nothing to do with security. The guard at the Denver Federal Center wasn't checking IDs against a 'no ride' list: there is no such thing. The demands made against Deb Davis were nothing more than a compliance test, a demand that she kowtow to officialdom. And lest we forget, having to show your ID is a search without a warrant.

Through these charges, it appears that the Feds are claiming that people were on notice that they had to show ID. Nowhere is this evident, unless 'Public Welcome' flags are bureaucratese for 'Papers, please'. In addition, Deb wasn't even visiting the Denver Federal Center. That the public bus transits the facility isn't her fault. If the Center really is Denver's answer to Area 51, then public buses should be driving around — not through — the Center.

The Department of Homeland Security has attempted to institute programs predicated on the use of ID to improve security. The fact of the matter is that demands for ID do nothing for security while making honest Americans less free.

I think you're missing the point here Zaphod, she wasn't trying to get onto the base. She was under no legal obligation to show ID, there is no "reasonable" excuse for looking at her ID. If this was a top secret sensitive government facility they wouldn't let public buses ride through and wouldn't be sporting a Visitors Welcome sign at the entrance. Maybe i'm missing your point, i must be.








[edit on 26-11-2005 by Rren]

According to the official Route 100 schedule available on Regional Transportation District website.

It's not a shuttle bus specifically going to the federal facility. This is a public bus crossing the Denver Federal Center. On the map you can see an alternate route used when Federal Center is closed.

The point I'm trying to make is that it DOESN'T MATTER if she was trying to enter the base and get off the bus or not. Whether her stop was on the other side of the base, or on the base, the BUS enters the base, and everyone on the bus is required to show a valid federal id, even to CROSS the base. Whether it was her goal to get onto the base or not, she WAS going onto the property, and you have to have a federal id to enter. EVERYONE entering the base, for WHATEVER purpose, be it to stay on it, or just to cross it and go out the other side, has to have a valid id. Period. It's always been that way.

As of about 6 years ago (very pre-9/11), in Kansas, you had to identify yourself upon request by a law enforcement agent or officer. You were not necessarily required to show ID, but you have to give your name and birthdate if requested. It did not matter if you were walking down the street minding your own business. If a police officer, for instance, walked up to you and asked you to identify yourself, it was a crime not to.

At that same time, Missouri permitted you to refuse identifying yourself. However, the police were allowed to detain you for refusing if they felt you were involved in a crime and that was your reason for refusal.

We really just have to face the fact that in this day and age, you really have to be prepared to prove that you are who you say you are. This does not apply solely to the US. Personally, I'm more comfortable with things being this way, with the great risks involved with identify theft and whatnot.

Are we sure it wasn't a party bus ? A security guard asking for ID on a bus ? *sigh*

Oh they're just trying to get everyone ready for being swiped like a freakin barcode for ID, no mattter where you're going or what you're doing... coming soon to a State near U
Are we ready for our microchip implants kiddies ?

How is checking for an ID before entering a federal facility, for WHATEVER reason, preparing us for barcodes and microchips? They've been doing this for DECADES.

Originally posted by Rren

... she wasn't trying to get onto the base. She was under no legal obligation to show ID, there is no "reasonable" excuse for looking at her ID. If this was a top secret sensitive government facility they wouldn't let public buses ride through and wouldn't be sporting a Visitors Welcome sign at the entrance. Maybe i'm missing your point, i must be.

This has alot to do with why I said it. It is harrasment for no good reason at all. Now if she had been trying to enter said federal facility, fine, she should show ID and would probably know she would have to so she would have it on her person. This whole incident was unecessary so IMO we are not far off that at all, they just want to know where we are and what we're doing.


I AM a certified security guard, and I know that I have no legal authority to ask anybody for their ID or papers unless they set foot on the site for which I am working. I have no right at all to ask someone for ID on a public facility and I personally wouldn't want to. People's rights and all that ...

[edit on 27-11-2005 by ImJaded]

The bus she was riding on was entering the facility. Therefore SHE was entering the facility. If the bus I'm riding on enters a military base, I'm required to show ID, whether I'm passing across it, or getting off or what.

From source in original post -

The bus she rides crosses the property of the Denver Federal Center, a collection of government offices such as the Veterans Administration, the U.S. Geological Survey, and part of the National Archives. The Denver Federal Center is not a high security area

And it is also noted that the bus stopped at the gates, it didn't enter with all passengers onboard. I guess this is where as stated below people are asked, civily, ifthey are entering or not said federal facility. Ther eis no reason to treat anybody like a criminal.

For the next two weeks she said had no ID. The guards would then ask her if she was getting off on Denver Federal Center property. When she told them 'no', they would let her alone: not once was she ever asked to get off the bus.

ok well it seems she just happened to meet the uptight-I-am-just-on-a-power-trip security guard.

It's still wrong IMO.



[edit on 27-11-2005 by ImJaded]

Actually they just stop at the gate, the security guard comes on, and says "Id please."

I don't mind giving my ID. And there's nothing wrong with security and laws.

But I believe there is a point where it goes to far. There is a point where it can go right into a police state type deal. And if a police state occurs don't be suprised if you feel like a prisoner in the "land of the free."

Troy

OH MY GOD!
She's the reincarnation of ROSA PARKS!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay, someone hasn't been doing their homework...

quote: The reason why she was charged has absolutely nothing to do with security. The guard at the Denver Federal Center wasn't checking IDs against a 'no ride' list: there is no such thing. The demands made against Deb Davis were nothing more than a compliance test, a demand that she kowtow to officialdom. And lest we forget, having to show your ID is a search without a warrant.

After 9/11, the FBI, Police Departments, CIA, & whoever else, do not have to have a warrant to search any residence, any person, or even a valid reason to stop you. In the "terrorist" society we now live in, they can stop you, & request your paperwork for any reason, or no reason at all.

This is thanks to the politicians & other idiots on Capitol Hill after 9/11. They made it that way, they took advantage of something, like they always do, to get what they wanted out of it. Just remember, the politicians know how to use the rules they make to their advantage, they know how all the loopholes work, they know every single in & out of every single law, because they wrote them.