U.S. Forces "Incompetent"

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
Well, talking about laughable. This is a statement coming from someone who believes that:

What exactly does Japanese and Chinese share, other then funny sounding words to westerners? As for culture, the only thing they share is a distaste for each other.

If the extent of your Asian knowledge is "funny sounding words" then you are hardly qualified to comment on what these two countries might do. Remember the Cold War? Remember all those Allies the US had, who they had a distaste for? Like the Taliban for instance? But, needs be, in that situation you rose above your distaste for them and got together for the (your) common good.

I was mocking you genius. Do you really believe they share language? Seriously?

And Alies we had a distaste for, including the Taliban? There is no proof the US ever even backed the Taliban.

Also, even if we did, there is a bit of a difference between the US backing a tiny little country like Afghanistan which the US military managed to take over with under 20,000 men, and 2 nations that have been mortal enemies for over a thousand years.

Hmmmm.....sticks little finger in the corner of mouth a la Dr. Evil.......

Wealthy. Yes. I am assuming you got your degree in economics the same place you did your diploma on Asian culture. I hope you haven't any money invested or too many credit card loans. You may be in for a rude shock sometime soon.

I am currently at some crapy little place they call The Wharton School of The University of Pennsylvania. You may have heard of it.

And yeah, I know all about consumer debt. Nothing big for me. A few hundred bucks on my credit card with about 30K in the bank.

Whoops. I'd check your facts again, skippy!

So you are saying that Japan makes more money off of China then the US?

I highly doubt that, though I am not going to look it up at this moment.

Very good point. The Japanese really would like the Chinese threat taken care of and goading the US into doing it for them is probably their #1 priority. Rather the dirty gaijin die for us than we doing it ourselves. Failing that, I have no doubt that Japan will choose the winning side should any conflict arise. While still doing business with the other side of course!

Ehhh, I dissagree that they would continue to do buisiness with China in any kind of cold war, or a full scale war.

On top of that, exactly how is Japan just going to choose the winning side?

They would be involved in any conlict from day one. Just look at a map of US military bases and take a look at Japan. In fact, Japan would take any attack that China would attempt.

I live in Japan and I know their attitude to the "rules" of Western society. If they can do something, say prostitution, gambling, etc., they will. While they are telling you they are not. They have novel ways of gettnig around the rules. I dare say they have found novel ways around not having any nuclear weapons.

Well, we know 1 thing is absolutely 100% true: They have never detonated a nuclear device. If you haven't detonated one, then you really don't know what you have. On top of that, exactly what delivery methods do they have? Not many to speak of.

Now, yet again, you think it is laughable. They have a space program, they have home grown rocket technology (I live not so far away from where they build the rocket engines for their H2 rocket) and they have a very sizable nuclear technology sector, reactors, etc. I know you are probably stuck in the fugue that Japan is still full of people wearing pointy hats and using oxen to work their paddy fields and the very notion that anyone other than the US is superior in any way is offensive to you. If it helps you sleep at night....

I have been to Japan, and understand that they are in every day a "modern" country.

However, they have absolutely no modern delivery methods. I don't think you fully apreciate what it takes to build a nuclear deterent. Just because they have a space program doesn't mean they hace ICBMs, and just because they have nuclear reactors doesn't mean they have warheads.

Sure the US has some awesome logistical abilities, but aren't you spread pretty thin right now? If you pull logistics from elsewhere will the whole house of cards fall down?

How many people make up the US military. How many are stationed in Iraq?

Basically, about 10% of our man power is in Iraq. The US is spread thin in the sense that we have a LOT of bases over seas, and thus to man them spread our overseas deployment thin.

Also, I would like to point out US military doctrine:

That is to be able to fight a 2 theater war at the same time. Iraq was a tiny war in one theater.

Oh, here we go. Take the chest-beating elsewhere please.....

Seriously. Answere the question.

How is China going to challenge US airpower? Their newest aircraft - the J-10 - is based off of the Isreali Lavi, which in turn is based off of the US F-16...An aircraft that will be phased out of service over the next 15 years in favor of the stealthy F-35 joint strike fighter. On top of that, the US has a CLEAR edge in detection systems.

Secondly, judging from the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, when your citzen's backs were against the wall, did they bravely band together to get the job done or did it descend into anarchy and the law of the jungle. I have little doubt the "Me-Me-Me" generation of the most selfish country on the planet would do what they do best - Look out for themselves.

If you think that the small number of left over people who stayed in NO after the hurricane in any way defines America, well, that is your stupidity.

I would point you to 9/11 for how the US bands together.

I am still interested to hear what you have to say about this statement however. With your amazing logistic base spread thin, all it would take would be a little internal strife at home and -BOOM- China would be so on you and you could do nothing about it.

Again, this is laughable.

The US has the most heavily armed population in the world.

You think Iraq is bad with 2000 deaths in nearly 3 years?

Try occupying NYC and LA.

And god knows China wouldn't want to venture out of the cities where people actually know how to shoot.

Of course this is to say nothing of actual US military action, which again would absolutely dominate China's military. Again, I point you to naval power. Exactly what does China have that even comes close to a SeaWolf attack sub or the DDX?

Hell, do they even have an aircraft carrier, the most important piece of power projection in the whole military (no, they don't).

So tell me, exactly what navy is going to bring those chinese troops over?

You are living in fantasy land.

Originally posted by Munro_DreadGod
Well wonder where your loyalties lie.

You can try labelling me if you like, if it will take the edge of whatever I am saying. Label someone and you can just dismiss their comments aftewards as being right/left/liberal whatever.

My loyalties start and end with myself. I am not willing to give myself over to a piece of colored cloth or an ideal that would get me or someone else killed. That is where my loyalties lie.

Ask the Iranian female population if they like being treated the way they do.

Oh, I can hear the stirring music starting to play in the background.....America...saviour of the world.....God Bless You USA!

That, pal, was sarcasm, something a scot might understand well. You are parroting the lines again. I have heard these talking points spewed over and over without any real analysis.

And what have the Iranian females got to do with anyway?????

Ask the average Iraqi if they like being free of saddam.

Heh. Ask if one dictator is better than another while you are at it.

Ask the average european if they like not speaking russian.

Yikes. A variation on the "You're lucky we saved your butts" routine I have come to know and loathe.

Ask the average londoner if they would rather the guys who blew up and murdered people their recently where in a detainee camp.

Ask those guys who were just as innocent if they minded being used as bomb mules so Tony could get his new anti-terror laws passed! (They failed by the way! Hooray! Common sense still prevails!!!!)

People like you take freedom for granted you have too fight for it, its not free.

Freedom is a state of mind. I was free the first day I saw the bars. Now no prison can hold me. I only wish the same for you all. Freedom is knowing you can get off the Merry-go-round!

Not every soldier is as bad as you would make out my friend.

I would say bad soldiers are in the minority. I just make the whole unit of them out to be incompetent. Individually they are all very good people. it is just their best efforts are misguided. It makes me wonder what could be achieved if they were re-directed to a more productive route?

So listen PAL, whats your point, in war people die, bad things happen, but how on earth does this make the US military incompetent?

Answer my question then.

Friendly Fire = Competence. True or False?

Your points are referenced to what incompetence in the US military?

Too numerous to mention. Inflated self worth and importance. A false sense of omnipotence. Lack of basic good training. Terrible marksmanship in favour of letting the technology do it for you. Regulary failing equipment. Now they have even lower standards of recruitment, for both enlisted and officers.

If it was a case of them saying, ah, hey guys we are just okay as a military than most people would respond with a hearty, well, you are good actually.

It's the whole WE ARE THE GODS OF WAR and WE WILL DESTROY YOU ALL sort of attitude that makes the sliding scale shift towards incompetence whenever you make even the most basic mistakes.

Mad Man has some great points.

You cannot judge soldier competence on this recent war in Iraq.
Why?...because the initial conventional war was over within weeks and the rest is just using a very small amount of military to place the Iraqis in the position to police their own country. You are a fool if you think the US is giving it all its got and never had any prior planning to project itself elsewhere if necessary. Why do you think the US has only used 130,000 to 150,000 soldiers for this war?....because they know of other threats and the planning has been in the works for years to squash those threats if they arise during our current tasks. Hell, even a low educated office geek knows how to project manage.

Now as far as competence is concerned. Im not saying that the US military is the supreme, ultimate, and most competent soldiers in the universe. But they are among the most highly trained, most mobile, technically sophisticated, and best equipped soldiers in the world along with the brits, the french, the japanese, and the aussies. Hell, these militaries are made for large scale conflicts, and have proven themselves over the past century. The US was devised to compete on the level of superpower capabilities during the cold war. To judge compentence on this current police like state that the US soldiers are in in IRAQ is nothing but a complete "UNDERESTIMATION" on the capabilities of the US.
Here is a little info for those who think the US is an incompetent power.

en.wikipedia.org...

carburetor

Originally posted by American Mad Man
I was mocking you genius. Do you really believe they share language? Seriously?

Yes, Japanese Kanji script comes from Chinese script. So they do share that aspect of their language. You were mocking me? Why?

And Alies we had a distaste for, including the Taliban? There is no proof the US ever even backed the Taliban.

Oh Lordy. Someone explain this to him. Next.

Also, even if we did, there is a bit of a difference between the US backing a tiny little country like Afghanistan which the US military managed to take over with under 20,000 men, and 2 nations that have been mortal enemies for over a thousand years.

Even if you did? I thought a second ago you were pretty sure you didn't? You never took Afghanistan over, duuuuude. Why are they talking of sending troops back if the job hasn't been done yet? Oh wait a second, the US did remember to secure the pipelines and the poppy fields though. Get your priorities straight anyway.

I am currently at some crapy little place they call The Wharton School of The University of Pennsylvania. You may have heard of it.

Nope. Can't say I have. Is it famous in America? Is it like one of those "send in your money - get a degree" type colleges or one of those frat party type affairs?

And yeah, I know all about consumer debt. Nothing big for me. A few hundred bucks on my credit card with about 30K in the bank.

Hooray for you! Pity about the karmic debt, though......

So you are saying that Japan makes more money off of China then the US?

I highly doubt that, though I am not going to look it up at this moment.

Yep, never let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

Well, we know 1 thing is absolutely 100% true: They have never detonated a nuclear device. If you haven't detonated one, then you really don't know what you have.

I'll concede you this excellent point. But I put this back to you. Why are you afraid of nuclear terrorism when no terrorist organisation has ever detonated a nuclear device either? Do you really need to detonate a device to become a nuclear power?

Seriously. Answere the question.

How is China going to challenge US airpower?

There is a Weaponry Forum for these types of questions. I would rather not get into a debate about jets and missiles and crap with people clutching the latest Janes Defence Weekly in their sweaty mitts, ready to jump on my back if I get the thrust pressure wrong or something.

But since you asked so earnestly, I will give you this. China is a big country. It has a well defended coastline. It can spread things around enough to make the missions too costly and dangerous. It doesn't matter if you have the latest fandangled aircraft if they can't hit anything.

By the way you didn't answer my friendly fire question. Quid pro quo.

I would point you to 9/11 for how the US bands together.

Yes, good point. However you banded together like a flock of sheep and have been running around hither and thither wherever the sheepdog media barked at you to make you go ever since. I wouldn't be very proud of that.

Try occupying NYC and LA.

And god knows China wouldn't want to venture out of the cities where people actually know how to shoot.

Now they might not put too much emphasis on reading in that University you go to, but I will refer you to the cliff notes of this discussion where I pointed out the futility and improbability of a Chinese invasion of the US. Someone else brought it up and I reacted in a similar fashion to you, i.e. greeting it with incredulity and derision.

You are living in fantasy land.

Yes, I'm so lucky. Rainbows and chocolate rivers, gum drop trees. Common sense and a sense of humour, so take the ad hominem down a notch, okay bud?

Originally posted by Mr Carburetor
Apparently some people missed a little bit of history. Does the invasion of Kuwait ring a bell? How about the bombing of the USS cole? HOw about WTC bombing 1? What about 911?.....hell i have lost count on my fingers the amount of terrorist attacks that have occured in past decades to the US alone.

Yes, you missed the history where the US rubbed all those countries up the wrong way in order that they become terrorist states. You brought on yourselves, so stop whining.

Did people think that the US should just bend over, spread their cheeks, and say thank you sir may i have another?

The US should have kept it's nose out of other countries' affairs.

Explain to me why you would label a terrorist organization bombing innocent people in countries all across the west and now in the middle east, and against their own people for decades would be labelled as the "Good Guy"????

I never labelled the terrorists as "Good Guys". I just commented that the US is not worthy of the title. This is another example of snap judgement thinking which gets the US into so much trouble. Saying A doesn't necessarily mean B. Use your head and read other peoples posts properly.....

On another point. The US is fighting with their hands tied behind their backs, Their feet bound , and a blind fold on.

You forgot head up their arse....

Other than the occasional offensive movment to stop foreign fighters entering the country, they are currently there training Iraqi forces, helping rebuild, helping POLICE the country, and all the while taking on suicide bombers and snipers from within the crowds......yadayada

Well, pick up a gun and lets see if you can go in there....help rebuild, help train, help police, try to keep absolute perfect morals,values, and exectution while getting shot at from crowds and pursued by disguised bombers. .....

siiiighhhhhhhhh.

Or else you could have just kept out of there like the rest of the world told you too. You came looking for sympathy in the wrong place.

Originally posted by Mr Carburetor
Here is a little info for those who think the US is an incompetent power.

en.wikipedia.org...

carburetor

Quote what you like. It is not like the lies you here in the media, that if they are repeated over and over, people will take them as being true.

In a real life situation just saying you are superior is setting yourself up for a fall. Just because you say it doesn't make it so.

If they were competent they would have been finished in Iraq a long time ago, never mind the mess they are in now. If what the media had told them was true the Iraqi people would have been showering their saviours with flower petals to bless the passage home of their liberators.

Instead you have a country fighting to take back what is rightfully theirs from a robber-baron entity. Whether they cripple a generation by taking the legs, arms and lives of thousands of naive young Americans, or lie through their teeth to set up a parliment and "democracy" so you will leave and they get back to the way things were.

Face it, they failed and they failed miserably. Hardly a mark of confidence.

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
By the way, it is pointless having the most sophisticated weapons and logistics in the world if the guy sitting holding the trigger is some redneck raised on reality tv and beer commercials. The weakest link is always the first to break.

You forgot to add "hunting" to the things he was raised on. That redneck will out shoot any other sub-culture (if that i the correct way to describe them...lol) on earth.

Why don't you look up who wins all of the wrolds rifle contests...

They are almost ALWAYS rural Americans, generally from the south or mid west.

The trigger men on the end of sophisticated weapons systems are generally officers, hence they have graduated college, and have a high degree of training.