Secret military space shuttle

Sometimes hollywood mirrors fact.. In a recent Westwing television show, it was leaked that the military had a secret space shuttle type vehicle that it could use to rescue NASA astronauts.

What are the chances that the US miltary actually has this type of vehicle? It would be very useful for deploying satellites, reseearch, spying, etc.. THe US military has black programs in all other areas so I'm sure they do or tried to create a space based version.

I also find it hard to believe that our best space technology is the 60's-70's era space shuttle.

I've read a lot of posts about military vehicles reaching the upper edge of the atmophere but do we have the ability to launch secret astronauts into space for missions?



[edit on 25-10-2005 by md1978]

[edit on 25-10-2005 by md1978]

Some people believe we never stopped after the X-15 flights. That all manned flights of space planes went over to black projects at that time.

Several small shuttle craft have been designed. I suppose one or more types were built. It's very likely that a two-stage horizontal take-off to orbit was built and tested. Whether that is still around, or operational, is unknown.

There's still an on-going design project that alters a fighter aircraft so that it can go into orbit, or close to it. And another for a space plane roughly the size of the F-16. I've never heard of either one being built.

Most of those concepts used hydrazine hydrate (N2H4) for fuel. Very powerful, and very hazardous material. A very difficult fuel for ground crews to work with.

No links, it's mostly all old news, and easy enough to find on the internet.

Well, ok, here's the Black Horse project page at FAS.org:
www.fas.org...


And some design concepts from the 1990's:
www.fas.org...


And for fun, here's a commercial company that thinks they can do it:
www.xcor.com...
external image

What I'd like to know is whether or not the USAF has it's own secret space station in orbit.

Edited to rearrange images and links
[edit on 25-10-2005 by ZPE StarPilot]

[edit on 25-10-2005 by ZPE StarPilot]

[edit on 25-10-2005 by ZPE StarPilot]

I wouldnt doubt the military could do this. NASA's annual budget was $15.4 billion last time I checked represented less than 1% of the entire federal budget . The best estimates of the US military (Black) budget is $40 billion a year.

They could easily fund such a craft in the black budget alone if they wanted

[edit on 25-10-2005 by ShadowXIX]

Originally posted by md1978
What are the chances that the US miltary actually has this type of vehicle?

Back in 1988 the Ballistic Missile Launch Notification Agreement was signed as a bilateral agreement between the U.S. and U.S.S.R. requiring each nation to notify the other party, "no less than twenty-four hours in advance, of the planned date, launch area, and area of impact for any launch of a strategic ballistic missile." The treaty entered into force on May 31, 1988 and also included civilian missiles using the first stage of such a ballistic missile.

This agreement did not apply to small research rockets etcetera, which led to the situation that an unsually large and fast Norwegian research missile nearly triggered the Russians to a full scale nuclear war back in 1995.

This incident directly led to the signing of the Memorandum of Understanding on Notifications of Missile Launches. This among others states:

Each Party shall provide pre-launch and post-launch notifications for launches of ballistic missiles that meet the range or altitude criteria set forth in paragraph 4 of this Memorandum and, with rare exceptions, pre-launch and post-launch notifications for launches of space launch vehicles. Each Party, at its discretion and in support of the objectives of this Memorandum, may also provide information in a timely fashion on other launches and objects, including de-orbiting spacecraft, and geophysical experiments and other work in near-earth space that are capable of disrupting the normal operation of equipment of the early warning systems of the Parties.

So it is dubious the US would risk nuclear war with Russia by launching something unannounced that could be seen as a nuclear missile launch. If such a thing as black space launches exists, in my opinion it would have to be a spaceplane - not a missile - which would not be recognized or show up as a missile launch.

Originally posted by md1978
It would be very useful for deploying satellites, reseearch, spying, etc..

The existing Space Shuttle has already frequently been used for such military purposes. No big secret about that one.

I think it's highly likely that the military have such capabilities. When you look at the age of the 'latest' technology that we are actually told about, like F117s for instance, and when you look back in history at what we knew about and when - it would seem unlikely that there isn't.

Isn't it also internationally illegal to use space for launching weapons? If so I imagine any military technology that could be a potentially offensive craft would therefore have an additional reason to be kept secret.

Originally posted by AgentSmith
Isn't it also internationally illegal to use space for launching weapons? If so I imagine any military technology that could be a potentially offensive craft would therefore have an additional reason to be kept secret.

Repeat: there have been military space shuttle launches with contents kept secret, no big deal, everyone knows that.

Originally posted by Simon666

Originally posted by AgentSmith
Isn't it also internationally illegal to use space for launching weapons? If so I imagine any military technology that could be a potentially offensive craft would therefore have an additional reason to be kept secret.

Repeat: there have been military space shuttle launches with contents kept secret, no big deal, everyone knows that.

Yes I know that, but if they have developed craft which can freely fly within the atmosphere and enter orbit all under their own power, they have significantly more defensive capabilities than the beloved glorified glider, the Space Shuttle. We're allowed to sail and fly around with nukes, but isn't it a slightly different ballgame when the aircraft can also enter space?
They would also continue sending up 'secret' payloads in the shuttle otherwise people would get more suspicious and start wondering how and when they are sending anything up.

Well, that's a different ballgame than the original question "In a recent Westwing television show, it was leaked that the military had a secret space shuttle type vehicle that it could use to rescue NASA astronauts." I don't think they have such a thing as otherwise it would have been noticed. There are enough amateur astronomers worldwide.

[edit on 27-10-2005 by Simon666]

Originally posted by Simon666
Well, that's a different ballgame than the original question "In a recent Westwing television show, it was leaked that the military had a secret space shuttle type vehicle that it could use to rescue NASA astronauts." I don't think they have such a thing as otherwise it would have been noticed. There are enough amateur astronomers worldwide.

[edit on 27-10-2005 by Simon666]

Why did you start jabbering on about Ballistic missiles then? It has just as much to do with the topic as what I said, if you want to get sarcy and hostile then you're picking on the wrong bloke.
If the military have secret space faring projects they are more than likely more advanced than the space shuttle and capable of powered flight at all stages wouldn't you say? It would seem pointless and unlikely that they would simply have a clone of the space shuttle for the reasons you pointed out. I thought it seemed a good idea to elaborate slightly on the topic to accomodate any possibilities, but if you want to stick to being narrowminded then crack on.

And I would honestly doubt that any number of amateur astronomers would notice any secret space faring craft either, any more so than they ever noticed past secret craft which just got reported as UFOs... Oh wait.. people still see UFOs - so maybe it has been spotted but no-one knows what they are looking at.. emm?
And with stealth technologies and I imagine the absence of bright, reflective colours on military craft, I imagine it would be very hard to spot anyway.

[edit on 27-10-2005 by AgentSmith]

Originally posted by AgentSmith
Why did you start jabbering on about Ballistic missiles then?

Because such launches perhaps might be mistaken for ballistic missile launches.

Originally posted by AgentSmith
If the military have secret space faring projects they are more than likely more advanced than the space shuttle and capable of powered flight at all stages wouldn't you say?

If.

Originally posted by AgentSmith
And I would honestly doubt that any number of amateur astronomers would notice any secret space faring craft either, any more so than they ever noticed past secret craft which just got reported as UFOs...

Until further notice, Klingon cloaking shields do not exist yet, nor do 100% black objects that don't reflect any light.

Originally posted by AgentSmith


Isn't it also internationally illegal to use space for launching weapons? If so I imagine any military technology that could be a potentially offensive craft would therefore have an additional reason to be kept secret.

The only internationally agreement the US signed concerning weapons in space bans the use of space based WMDs nukes,biological,chemical. It does not deal with convential explosives,laser weapons or kinetic energy weapons.

They dont try to hide looking into plans for such things as sub-orbital bombers and space based weapons like "Rods from God" a kinetic energy weapon.

When I visited Vandenberg Air Force Base for the recent launch of an NRO recon satellite, I talked to some people at the 30th Space Wing about the West Wing episode with the "secret military shuttle" subplot. They were aware of the show and thought it was ridiculous.

It is impossible to have a secret shuttle or space station because such things cannot be launched in secret. Even if you could hide the budget and construction in the "blackworld" it is still virtually impossible to hide the launch preparations. The American public and any potential foreign adversary has access to high quality satellite imagery. Also, the AMTRAK train runs right though Vandenhberg, giving passengers an exceptionally nice view of the launch pads from ground level.

Even if you conceal the prepartions, the game is up as soon as the vehicle leaves the pad. The launch itself is often visible across several states and lots of people like to photograph launches with telephoto lenses. Assuming it reaches orbit without any unauthorized persons knowing exactly what launched, there are still amateur astronomers who track space objects, determine their orbits and study their physical characteristics. The secret would be exposed soon enough.

Originally posted by Shadowhawk


It is impossible to have a secret shuttle or space station because such things cannot be launched in secret. Even if you could hide the budget and construction in the "blackworld" it is still virtually impossible to hide the launch preparations.

You have to think outside the box that is convential launch rockets. Military tech is far in advance of anything made public. In the black world a military space plane (one that takes off from a runway and not a launch pad) is not impossible.

Who ever said a military space shuttle would need a large NASA rocket to get into orbit? Heck the private Spaceship one made it into orbit without a large rocket launch pad.

[edit on 27-10-2005 by ShadowXIX]

I dont think the military has a spaceplane, but I would bet that they have a craft that can put satellites in orbit...for a fraction of toadys rocket costs.

I dont buy into the military haveing space stations and moon bases.

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
You have to think outside the box that is convential launch rockets. Military tech is far in advance of anything made public. In the black world a military space plane (one that takes off from a runway and not a launch pad) is not impossible.

Well, using the same argument and argumenting the atomic bomb is 50+ years old, I could argument the military might have antimatter and isomer bombs.

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Who ever said a military space shuttle would need a large NASA rocket to get into orbit? Heck the private Spaceship one made it into orbit without a large rocket launch pad.

Spaceship One didn't even come close to going into orbit. It reached about Mach3, the SR-71 flies as fast for decades. To go into orbit, you need to go about 10 times faster, Mach 25.

Originally posted by Murcielago
I dont think the military has a spaceplane, but I would bet that they have a craft that can put satellites in orbit...for a fraction of toadys rocket costs.

One of them calls Pegasus and exists today.

Originally posted by Simon666

Originally posted by AgentSmith
Why did you start jabbering on about Ballistic missiles then?

Because such launches perhaps might be mistaken for ballistic missile launches.

Then it's still an elaboration on the original question, it's not like I started talking about puppies is it?

Originally posted by AgentSmith
If the military have secret space faring projects they are more than likely more advanced than the space shuttle and capable of powered flight at all stages wouldn't you say?

If.

Quite, but as this discussion is purely based on if's and maybes then I think it's still pretty appropiate.

Originally posted by AgentSmith
And I would honestly doubt that any number of amateur astronomers would notice any secret space faring craft either, any more so than they ever noticed past secret craft which just got reported as UFOs...

Until further notice, Klingon cloaking shields do not exist yet, nor do 100% black objects that don't reflect any light.

Oh how clever! I see you have the skill of only quoting parts of what people are saying to twist the interpretation to your own end! *claps*
You should be a professional journo if you're not one already.

As I said:

And I would honestly doubt that any number of amateur astronomers would notice any secret space faring craft either, any more so than they ever noticed past secret craft which just got reported as UFOs... Oh wait.. people still see UFOs - so maybe it has been spotted but no-one knows what they are looking at.. emm?

The meaning of which being that for the last century, mainly the latter half, secret aircraft have often been spotted but simply passed off as UFO's. So people may very well have seen any current secret craft, but as they have done for the last 60 years they will simply dismiss it as a UFO.
So unless it drops out of the sky and has USAF stamped on the side they are none the wiser.
And they don't have to be perfectly black, geez when the sun catches the Iridium satellites they show up as a bright flash for an instant, but you don't see them normally do you.
Would you like to try and spot a dark coloured object the size of a small/medium sized plane in orbit? You'd have a hard job, and how would you identify it if you did?

The words you're looking for there mate are 'Sense' and 'Common' (Not necessarily in that order).

[edit on 27-10-2005 by AgentSmith]

Secret Shuttle? no.

Other type aircraft that can fly into space? Probably so.....

I believe the US military chose the B2 over the space plane (funding). That does not exlude the posibility that we may have experimental or operational low earth orbit aircraft.

simon
Spaceship One didn't even come close to going into orbit. It reached about Mach3, the SR-71 flies as fast for decades. To go into orbit, you need to go about 10 times faster, Mach 25.

I'm not sure why people always say this.
A space elevator sould go 1 mph and get into space, you dont need to go mach 25.
Spaceship One went into sub-orbit, and had a few minutes of zero-g's, much like the X-15.

Originally posted by Simon666

Well, using the same argument and argumenting the atomic bomb is 50+ years old, I could argument the military might have antimatter and isomer bombs.

Not as if thats a good comparison to a space plane, but the US has been quietly pouring millions into both those things.

isomer weapons

airforce anti-matter bomb

Originally posted by Simon666

Spaceship One didn't even come close to going into orbit. It reached about Mach3, the SR-71 flies as fast for decades. To go into orbit, you need to go about 10 times faster, Mach 25.

Your right spaceship one was a sub orbital flight but it did get into space and cost a whopping $30m to develop .