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As objective as you so may seem to be, you have apparently and objectively forgotten that your assertions and evidences of and for Jesus was a sinner have discounted 1800+ years of academic and scholarly analysis and commentary? So in truth, who is fooling who here? Are you fooling yourself by asserting such or are you making those theological scholars and academia look foolish, invalid, and in error?
"And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, 'Take these things hence; make not my Father's house a house of merchandise.'" (John 2:14-16)
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall
not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his
kingdom. (Matthew 16:28)
"Surely, I come quickly." (Revelation 22:20)
This entire thread is the result of a large Troll...As always Please refrain from feed the trolls. Feeding only make them larger and more annoying!
Originally posted by shihulud
"And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, 'Take these things hence; make not my Father's house a house of merchandise.'" (John 2:14-16)
Here we have Jesus committing violence in a sacred place, Is violence a sin?
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall
not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his
kingdom. (Matthew 16:28)
"Surely, I come quickly." (Revelation 22:20)
Now is lying a sin? The first quote says that there would be people alive that met Jesus when Judgement day happened, do you know any 2000 year olds? The second quote is another lie based on the first, were still waiting for the return of Jesus
Nice point on subjective reality but my reality is perceived to be physical and in a physical world the sun and gravity and the like exist.
First we need a mutually agreed definition of sin to be able to discuss whether or not the above would fit such a definition.
Possible yes, probable NO. Plus the wording negates any reincarnation "there be some standing here" would mean only a few reincarnates. Also the the 2nd phrase "Surely, I come quickly." (Revelation 22:20) I'd hate to go on a night out with this guy if over 2000 years is quick
Just because we do not think there are any 2000 year olds alive, does not make it impossible. It is also possible he was talking about reincarnation, and how their essence would be inhabiting a physical body when he comes back...
Originally posted by shihulud
My definition of sin is the old adage "do what you want as long as you dont harm anyone else", anything harmful to others by your own doing is sin. Things like impure thoughts are NOT sin but violence, lying etc
Possible yes, probable NO.
Plus the wording negates any reincarnation "there be some standing here" would mean only a few reincarnates.
Also the the 2nd phrase "Surely, I come quickly." (Revelation 22:20) I'd hate to go on a night out with this guy if over 2000 years is quick
You know the "I'll be ready in a minute" 16 years later caper.
We perceive the world through senses and yes our senses can deceive but come on this isn't "The Matrix" You might as well say that we're all dead and what we perceive as life is a holographic record that our minds see as reality and when we die(holographically) we turn into chicken eggs and we begin again.
However I know through using hallucinogenic compounds that reality can be very distorted but normality is what the world chooses as real and in that normal reality the sun exists physically or else we wouldn't be here.
Transgression of the law of God; disobedience of the divine command; any violation of God's will, either in purpose or conduct; moral deficiency in the character; iniquity; as, sins of omission and sins of commission.
Originally posted by shihulud
HA HA HA this could go on for moons, subjective, objective. By that same token Jesus could have been an alien, a chocolate biscuit or empty crisp packet. The problem with subjectivity is that it needs to be quantified/measured to make sense of it. We do this by calculating probability matrix's usually in our head (by utilising all available evidence) and assigning a value to it. A lower value means that the scenario is less likely to be.
Concerning your sun statement, yes there is a possiblity that its not there but it has a high probability of being there so therefore we deduce from the high probability that the sun must be there.
We know that from many experiments and other varifiable evidence that the probability is high.
I mean would you be willing to test the hypothesis and be fired into the sun?
Concerning Jesus/God/Religion yes there is a possibility but the probability is not that high, in some cases highly improbable.
As we only have the bible as evidence and there is no other varifiable evidence we can deduce that the probabilty of certain biblical events to be suspect.
So from the evidence given I have deduced that Jesus is likely to have sinned.
Oh and BTW that was my sin definition, here is the Brainydictionary definition
Transgression of the law of God; disobedience of the divine command; any violation of God's will, either in purpose or conduct; moral deficiency in the character; iniquity; as, sins of omission and sins of commission.
Really not much difference eh LOL
"do what you want as long as you dont harm anyone else"
Originally posted by shihulud
Personally I dont care whether Jesus sinned or not, even if God/ Jesus etc existed I still wouldn't vote/worship or bow down before them.
G
So what is the purpose of this post? You sure are trying very hard to prove that Jesus sinned, when it doesn't really matter to you. If it didn't matter to you, than why keep writing in this thread?
Originally posted by shihulud
The purpose of this post is that from all the available evidence i.e the bible I have deduced that jesus was a sinner. Whether or not I care less is immaterial, the thing is that I wanted to see why people think Jesus did or did not sin. I am entitled to have an opinion on anything whether or not I believe/agree with whats said. There might be an answer that could change my mind.
G
[edit on 14-10-2005 by shihulud]
No answer I give you will ever change your mind, not because I don't know to answer you, but because you have already made up your mind about your beliefs.
Jesus stated that the temple "was a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves." Jesus was cleaning out the temple, but you say because he was doing violence, he must be sinning. If your house was being treated as a house to rob people and you came home and tossed them all out, according to you, you would be sinning. I know that this is a weak arguement, but it holds some truth to it.