Jesus was a Sinner

How did Jesus manage to go to heaven when he was a sinner? The reason he was a sinner was because he committed suicide as he knew (supposedly) that he as going to be killed and he actively sought out to be killed. In my book thats suicide and therefore sin.
He was also quite a nasty piece of work when you have a good look at some of the things he said and done i.e

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26

So to be one of Jesus's mates you have to hate everyone, not the message of peace that we have come to know and love Eh?



Mod Edit: to remove ALL-CAPITALIZED title

[edit on 23-9-2005 by kinglizard]

There is a difference between martyrdom and suicide. Dying for taking a stand, even if you know you will lose your life, is not suicide. If He were to have caved and treasured His life more than the Father's will, then He would have been a sinner. Are people in North Korea committing suicide because they believe the Truth and follow the Lord, despite the fact that they will be tortured and killed for that belief? Do you think God considers their devotion to be suicide?

As for Luke 14:26
The usage of the word Hate is very similar in the way that it was used in Matthew 10:37.

"Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;

Most see the usage in the above references more of "Do not put anyone above me" or that Christ should always have the highest place in a believers priority.
The use of the word Hate is not attempting to promote hatred of any kind.

As for Jesus being a sinner for suicide, you have an interesting perspective.
But let's look at this a bit:
Websters definition of suicide:
suicide n the act of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally

Jesus, allowed Pontius Pilot as well as the Pharasees to take him prisoner and to ultimately put him to death on the orders of his father God. Did he take his own life? The one word answer to that No.
What would have been a greater sin?
Disobeying the orders of his Father?
Or by following his father's direction and allow Pilate to put him to death.
Well since by definition he did not commit suicide, it would have been a grave sin to not follow his fathers orders.

Originally posted by kenshiro2012

As for Jesus being a sinner for suicide, you have an interesting perspective.
But let's look at this a bit:
Websters definition of suicide:
suicide n the act of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally

Jesus, allowed Pontius Pilot as well as the Pharasees to take him prisoner and to ultimately put him to death on the orders of his father God. Did he take his own life? The one word answer to that No.
What would have been a greater sin?
Disobeying the orders of his Father?
Or by following his father's direction and allow Pilate to put him to death.
Well since by definition he did not commit suicide, it would have been a grave sin to not follow his fathers orders.

So, when a suicide bomber blows up a building somewhere, it's the bomb's fault the person died?

Ecch, I don't really care anyway. Jesus didn't even die on the cross. In fact, according to historical accounts, he lived a long life with his wife, Mary Magdalene with whom he began the Merovingian dynasty in France.

Originally posted by iceofspades
So, when a suicide bomber blows up a building somewhere, it's the bomb's fault the person died?

Take Ken's post in conjunction with my own for a clearer understanding. He covered points I missed, and I parts he missed (actually, I think he just didn't think he had to restate what I had just said, just fill in the details I had missed).

Ecch, I don't really care anyway. Jesus didn't even die on the cross. In fact, according to historical accounts, he lived a long life with his wife, Mary Magdalene with whom he began the Merovingian dynasty in France.

How's that now?

So, when a suicide bomber blows up a building somewhere, it's the bomb's fault the person died?

Hmmm...... let me see. suicide bomber........ ignites the bomb himself / straps the bomb himself..... I think that this would definately fall into the category of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally

Originally posted by shihulud
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26

There is something called symbolic thinking. Look and you shall find.

Woah...Talk about let he who has eyes see...I completely missed the second half of that initial post! Thanks for the heads up, AkashicWanderer!

Christ's comment here was in comparison to the love you have for Him and the Father. If you are not willing to, when He calls, drop everything and do His work, you cannot be His disciple. That phrase is directly correlated to the parable of the Dinner, Luke 14:16-24, where many are called, and none show up because they have other things they feel are more important. Nothing is more important than the Father, and this is what Christ is telling the crowds as they gather during his parable.

[edit on 9-23-2005 by junglejake]

why is it that many christians switch to "symbolism" mode when they see with their own eyes something that contradicts what they thought before? so I'm supposed to literally think Jesus is the son of God but the hate my family thing is figurative? I guess I haven't been enlightened so I need someone else to tell me when and where to switch modes.

and PS. i don't think Jesus commited suicide. I do think Jesus drank alchohol. the establishment referred to him as a "glutton and a drunkard" from time to time. Jesus didn't have a job. I've read some where in the bible that if a man don't work, he shouldn't eat. jesus relied on his women followers for the most part to feed himself and his deciples. the biggest problem is that Jesus (really I think it was the actuall followers and Paul) was inserted before God. this is in the 10 commandments that we shall have no other gods before God. no people tell us that we must first except Jesus as our lord and savior before we can even think about God.

[edit on 23-9-2005 by passengername]

Originally posted by passengername
why is it that many christians switch to "symbolism" mode when they see with their own eyes something that contradicts what they thought before? so I'm supposed to literally think Jesus is the son of God but the hate my family thing is figurative? I guess I haven't been enlightened so I need someone else to tell me when and where to switch modes.

My post right before yours underwent a major rewrite..I hadn't seen the second half of the initial post. I'm kinda bumping this thread so y'all can see it since there's no notification when one edits.

Also, symbolic thinking I think may have been the wrong term. Instead it is relative reasoning or thinking. Comparing one to the other. Sure, a shower is hot when you get in, but compared to putting your hand in a fire, the shower is cold. That's the point God was trying to make there.

anybody who can't understand that my wife and kids comes first, has a screw loose! it's like my Dad getting mad at me because I got five bucks to my name and feed my family rather than picking him up some cigars. He's the father right? this probably points back to my previous post about how Jesus didn't work. if he's the father, why does he need my support? I figured it would be the other way around. it like, if I needed my child to support me, why would he listen to me?

Originally posted by passengername
why is it that many christians switch to "symbolism" mode when they see with their own eyes something that contradicts what they thought before? so I'm supposed to literally think Jesus is the son of God but the hate my family thing is figurative? I guess I haven't been enlightened so I need someone else to tell me when and where to switch modes.

[edit on 23-9-2005 by passengername]

First I am not a christian. What I saw written in Luke did not contradict what I thought before. Jesus is not LITERALLY the son of God, that would requiere a literal birth.

You can interpret the written word yourself, do not rely on anyone else...

well I guess my comments wouldn't apply to you akashicwanderer, with your not being christian. you would take the aproach most non-christians take. the bible is a good book but not literal. I'm not sure about what you thought before you read the luke passage, but again you're not a christian.

Back to the topic at hand:

The majority of christian religions do not hold the idea that only those who have never commited sin can go to heaven.

The cross represents the deepest truth. The acceptance of our greatest suffering can become our salvation. Do not run away from suffering, rather accept it, this is the deepest truth and the path to liberation.

So what your trying to say is that Jesus had every intention of dying on the cross, willfully got caught and voluntereed his life to save our sins. Thats suicide in my book, maybe not taking his own life himself but knowing that your about to be killed and having the ability to stop said killing and doing nothing about it is suicide.

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
There is something called symbolic thinking. Look and you shall find.

Eh no the word hate means hate no symbology to mean something else. I have looked and I have found!!

I must admit that I am in agreement with Passengername, when things in the bible aren't clear then christians use symbolism or "God moves in mysterious ways","Part of Gods plan". Sorry just doesn't cut it, we want explanations not just some feeble "oh it means this, this symbolises that" crap.
Come on get your finger out!!!!


G

Originally posted by shihulud
Thats suicide in my book, maybe not taking his own life himself but knowing that your about to be killed and having the ability to stop said killing and doing nothing about it is suicide.

Thankfully, your book isn't the one many live by.

My grandfather served in World War 2 in the pacific theater. He was on an island just off of New Guinea on patrol with several other guys. They ran into a Japanese patrol and ended up taking them out. However, during the battle, my grandfather took three rounds in his leg. He couldn't walk, and they had a ways to get back to the lander. His buddies said they would carry him out there, but that would severely slow down their patrol and take out two able men from the fight, greatly increasing the chance of the whole patrol being wiped out. The other option was to be left behind and face certain death, but the patrol would make it out of there. He told them to stick him in a bush, they partly buried him, gave him water and food rations and left him to die.

Was that suicide, or was it selfless sacrifice for the good of his fellow soldiers? If they were to have taken him, the entire patrol's survivability would greatly decrease, yet if he was left there it was almost assured he would be dead in a couple of days unless he was found by a Japanese patrol. Then he would be dead a lot sooner.

Thankfully for me, God had another plan, and some natives found my grandfather and snuck him off of the island and eventually back to his company. God had another plan for Christ, too, because He raised Christ from the grave 3 days later.

Which brings us to another question. Is it suicide if you know you're going to be brought back to life after a few days?

From the Bible...

John 15: 12, 13

"This is my commandment: love one another as I love you. No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends."

Jake, I guess this sums up how your grandfather and many other brave people have acted.

Jesus gave up His life so that we may live.

Junglejake the difference between your grandfather and jesus is
1) your grandfather didn't know if he was going to die
2) your grandfather didn't have to die and
3) your grandfather was not the supposed son of god

Also Mahree are you saying that if Jesus didn't die on the cross then we wouldn't be here, all human life on this planet would not exist???

Jesus gave up His life so that we may live.

G

Originally posted by shihulud
Junglejake the difference between your grandfather and [J]esus is
1) your grandfather didn't know if he was going to die

He and the men he was with were sure he would. Hindsight is 20/20, but he didn't think he'd see the next morning. So yes, he did know he was going to die. He just turned out to be wrong.

2) your grandfather didn't have to die and

No, he didn't. He could have put his whole company at risk by demanding they help save him. In his mind, there was no decision. He, in his mind, killed himself to protect his patrol, just like the individual who throws himself on a grenade to save everyone around him.

3) your grandfather was not the supposed son of god

Neither is Jesus the supposed son of God.

Also Mahree are you saying that if Jesus didn't die on the cross then we wouldn't be here, all human life on this planet would not exist???

On this planet it would, although it would be extremely stark and horrible. Christ won the battle against Satan's corruption of the planet when He died on the cross. In doing so, he guaranteed us eternal life if we but reach out and take it. Life as Mahree referred to and life as you recognize it are two vastly different things. In Christ we are a new creation, born again, suddenly alive in ways I never could have conceived of nor understood before I found Christ. Existing and living are two totally different things; Mahree was talking about living while you interpreted it as existing.

Originally posted by shihulud
So what your trying to say is that Jesus had every intention of dying on the cross, willfully got caught and voluntereed his life to save our sins. Thats suicide in my book, maybe not taking his own life himself but knowing that your about to be killed and having the ability to stop said killing and doing nothing about it is suicide.

He did not willfully do this. We can see this when Jesus says "not my will, but Thy will be done." This phrase alone (and you're relying on the bible to make the rest of your claims) should prove that Jesus did not willfully do this. To not resist, and to willfully do are very different things. One cannot resist the will of God, yet billions are trying, we can only accept it.

Eh no the word hate means hate no symbology to mean something else. I have looked and I have found!!

We must remember that the Bible has been translated countless of times. The word hate could've been inserted for lack of a better word that described the true phrase. You will find what you look for. If you only look for the surface, that is what you will find.

I must admit that I am in agreement with Passengername, when things in the bible aren't clear then christians use symbolism or "God moves in mysterious ways","Part of Gods plan". Sorry just doesn't cut it, we want explanations not just some feeble "oh it means this, this symbolises that" crap.
Come on get your finger out!!!!

Once again I'm not Christian. It also doesn't make sense to stereotype every single follower of a religion because of what someone (who doesn't even belong to the religion) does.

What do you want an explanation to?

[edit on 28/9/2005 by AkashicWanderer]