Hey, I just had to dig this up since this is something I know a little about.

The Ninja wasn't really a term used by the clans themselves that were later reffered to in modern times as Ninja. Ninja was assigned to those that used unorthodox tactics and was also attributed to the actions of some rogue samurai. I'm fairly certain that the iconic black outfit and hood is somewhat of a myth, the earliest account is from kubuki theatre maybe 17th or 18th century. It's been a while since I've researched it.

The Bujinkan today is a compilation of nine traditions some of which are actually ancient ju-jutsu texhniques. Some Like the Togakure ryu stem from a tradition of warrior monks , this probably resembles closest the stereo type of the "Ninja" the best.

The ninja like clans were of lesser class and had to improvise, in essence they were the losers. Assasination was definately classified as Ninja like, however the Soke today says these were not real ninja. It's a very grey area.

The traditions making up bujinkan today are varied and were only assembled in relatively recent history by the previous grandmaster Takamatsu.
some traditions are more like the techniques of footsoldiers, battle field techniques of old japan, mainly the warring states period. Some are actually from samurai families. This makes up the bulk of the bujinkan that is taught.

The secrets the clans kept were to do with thier techniques and strategies. Their military secrets of the time. Just like we do today.
They're are aspects in the bujinkan that are not taught openly because of the obvious reasons. As well there is a great deal that is/was transfered orally.

But nothing worthy of being classified as a secret society I'm afraid.
Back in the day? sure.

[edit on 22-6-2010 by squiz]

Ninja...as you know them is a modern invention, with all do respect to the certain martial arts groups claiming to somehow be the oldest “klan” etc.....historically they do not pan out. They sell a a romantic notion, but one without historical basis. I'm sure I'll offend a few with that statement, but I stand by it. I had a hard on for anything and all things Ninja related as a 70's child, read everything I could, and have through the years studied with a professional scholar on the issue.

Now if you'd like to really study the mystical origins of the Ninja myths, and study their truest historical precedent I would advise you study the Yamabushi.........much of what has been added to "Ninjitsu" and the movies, comics, anime etc to form the modern ninja myth is in fact based on the Yamabushi and the Shugendō monks. Everything from the Kuji mystical hand gestures, ascetic rituals (hanging upside down, meditating in a freezing waterfall, the firehouse ritual etc etc) were all actually apart of the Yamabushi tradition and has been plagiarized for strictly commercial reasons by the would be "Ninja" klans. Many of the Yamabushi stories and myths were the basis of later "Ninja" ideas.

Hatsumi and his group has a neat "product", and if you want to satisfy your comic book martial arts book cravings their your best bet. If your after actual historical study, and would like to know about the true men on which the myths were popularized I'd study the Yamabushi, and Shugendō Buddhism. You can in fact for much less then Bujinkan Inc would charge you go study and practice the Yamabushi forms of meditation......but it is NOT for the feint of heart. Get your insurance caught up.

If you simply want to learn Martial Arts…..I’m biased but the so called “ninjitsu” schools do not rank very high in proficiency, or application. Get your martial training from true martial artists I can think of many forms most in China a few In Japan, and other areas that are much more effective and have true historical legitimacy , and get your esoteric training from true ascetics….the Yamabushi are what the weekend ninjas wish they could be. All of the "mystical" attributes given to ninjitsu were STOLEN from this very real group of mystics.


In my other biased views.....
Hashshashin > Ninja


[edit on 22/6/2010 by ForkandSpoon]

In fuedal japan ninja were looked upon as being without honour due to their tactics and usually executed when captured. Though some were employed for their unique talents at times .
It wasnt a profession that one would brag about or admit to as shortly after one would lose their head - literally or be used for tamashigiri (cutting practice) as that was the fate of criminals up until the meiji restoration.

I'm not a scholor of japanese ninjitsu although I do know a lot about chinese martial arts, but what I've heard about japans ninjas parallels very closely to what fork and spoon has written in his posts.

I've also been lead to believe that the art of ninjitsu doesn't really exist although people acting like "ninja's" did. the ninjas were all sorts from desperate farmers to out of work samurai and soldiers to even expert bodygaurds and mercenaries. each simply used what they personally knew martial arts and methods wise. so the ninjitsu was different for every ninja.

Also, the concept of the ninja goes back to many other countries. chinas had their version of them hundreds of years before japan. korea had theirs too. I'm sure india and persia did too along with any other kingdom or empire. professional hitmen were all that ninjas really were.

Also. a lot of the "ninjitsu" i see being taught at schools looks to me a lot more like jujitsu than anything. Which doesn't make sense. jujitsu is not quiet or necessarily quick in killing an opponent. Some kempo or something equaly brutal is what they would have needed to take out a person quickly if the ninja were caught by a guard or patrol. I've been told that since ninjas were good at murdering via sneaky means such as poison, that they really didn't even use the sword that often. the design is best suited for a quick stab to the heart not for combat. so doom on poorly equiped ninja if he got caught by a gaurd with a halbrid or real sword. In fact most ninjas who were caught and had to engage in combat with the gaurds, samurai, or whomever lost most of the time. which means that they werern't really good at hand to hand combat ala martial arts. or really involved in the type of killing that were assume they were. poison was probably their most used weapon.

Ninjas probably didn't even use martial arts. killing doesn't require it. a doctor or apothacarist could do a more efficient job killing with a knife or poison than a guy flinging ninja stars while hanging from a cieling. and real ninjas probably knew this too and used those methods.

The truth is probably that ninja as we think of them didin't even exist. a few hitmen hired to assasinate people, people start talking. next they become this boogey man called the ninja who strikes from the shadows hiding out in secret clan domiciles somewhere in the woods. nope. just a few hired hitmen and a lot of exagerated and fear induced tails.

fork and spoon.

I like what you said about forms and shoddy instructors or systems where the applications are lost. I see that too often these days in the local martial arts acadamies. in all sects of martial arts. it's these instructors who were never taught the actual combatatives of each movement in their form or system that pass the same superficial knowledge down to their students who then go on to perpetuate the art form incorrectly. THis leads to many dead forms. where the katas have no real meaning or application anymore.

The ubiquitus black belt who can do all sorts of fancy stuff but can't actually fight or defend anything. it may not be their fault but the fault of the instructors who don't truely understand their own system.

My shifu would always teach each form movement by movement. making sure we had the combatatives of each technique down and understood so that we could use them in drills. people don't realize sometimes the genius behind the form and the knowledge it can confere if broken down and analyzed for it's martial content and applications.

very interesting post.

QUestion about the geneology of actual ninjitsu. I agree that all modern martial arts are off shoots or evolutions of older styles. I am always trying to trace and analyze the histories and origens of chinese martial arts, but i am also somewhat familiar with japanese, okinawan, and korean MA history too. Right now i'm facinated with song dynasty Hong chuen from the shianxi area of the yellow river. from hong chuen (lao jia hong) came da hong, xiao hong, tai-tzu, taiji concepts, and lots of the long fist curriculum. what did ninjitsu come from.

could you tell me the basic components and styles that basically went into the core of japanese ninjitsu. where they influenced from korean MA. chinese MA. a hodgepodge of this n that etc...

Also. you said that you've moved on to styles that are less ridgid in curriculum and more about efficiency and violence of action. I too have basically done the same thing. just curious as to what systems you've explored or settled into along this quest. Sounds like you embrace the philosophy of kajunekenpo, jeet kuen do, wun hop kuen do, or silat. All styles that make no bones about using what works and getting rid of what doesn't.

Also whats your take on these styles and their ever evolving approach to MA/combatatives. Do you like the jeet kuen do way where the art changes from generation to generation depending on the core knowledge and preferences of the head master and never stays the same, always keeping relevant. or do you like the older methods of hybriding martial arts where the style stays the same for centuries although effective like tang lang chuan (N. preying mantis) just curious to get your thoughts.

Ultimately the biggest problem of "martial arts" is there is nothing martial about most of them. People watch some sort of Ultimate Fighting series and think that means Jujitzu is superior...which it may be in a ring where there ar ethe limitations of a "sport". However a "martial" art is designed for WAR, it is not about subduing your opponent it is about taking them out quickly, efficiently and moving on to the next as quickly as possible....there is no "going to the mat" on a battlefield that makes sense as a strategy and only leaves you vulnerable....even in a local bar...not a good idea.....

Worse many martia arts forms have become not even a "sport" but rather a ballet....most of Wu-Shu fits in that catagory...pretty to watch, it is a performance art, again more about pushing limits for show, then defeating a real enemy.

The Martial arts traditions come from a time when battlefields were very personal, and melee engagements were usually what decided those.....even the Japanese realized very quickly how fast gun powder changed things. If the Japanese Meiji restoration didn't answer the question, the the Boxer Rebellion surely did.

So with that being said, why study martial arts? Why not get a pistol you like, practice as hard with it, and maybe learn some arm locks and other more security minded techniques and be done with it....after all that is what most actual military and mercenaries would do......really martial arts as it is romanticized is not really applicable in todays world.

UNLESS....

Your looking for something beyond a way of fighting, and combat....the many schools also do offer a system of working on one self, improving your health, you bodies systems, breathing, blood flow, mind, intent, however you want to quantify "Chi" and in general make a great avenue for perfecting yourself......and this is why I argue the "historical" does matter.....because the older mature systems are more likely to keep that part of the art, not just application tricks, and techniques, but also the physiological, and spiritual. This is why I do find them perhaps more interesting then mixed martial arts with this and that thrown into a pot without a true foundation.....

Why learn say a sword today? It's an idiotic weapon to choose in combat today, wasn't a great weapon of choice in the old days, almost always outclassed by a trained spearman, the spear not the sword won the day in feudal Japan, or Rome, or Europe.....however the sword takes more mastery...and by mastering it you learn also to master yourself......Ultimately that is what I think matters when considering the form, teacher, or art you choose. All the more reason, the virtue and morals of your teacher may matter more then anything else.

Back to the origin of the thread though, and the original question....Anyone who is interested in the esoteric, spiritual, and true basis of the Ninja/Shinobi myth would do well to study Shugendo, and the Yamabushi...you don't even have to agree with the religion....their forms of meditation and history are incredibly fascinating.....the world view is very interesting as well, seeking truth in a number of traditions, with less regard for dogma....besides who wouldn't enjoy hanging upside down off a cliff and contemplating things....

[edit on 25/6/2010 by ForkandSpoon]

wow, fork and spoon. I really like what you have to say.

A very fair approach to martial arts. And I concure with wushu today. Lots of embellished chang chuan (mostly the cha' chuan version of long fist) no compatatives in the modern PRC wushu curriculum.

Was sad when I went to song shan only to see shaolin monks performing wushu. luckely there are still several shaolin (disrobed and a few still ordained) who know pre 1900's wu fa and want to teach it so that it is not lost.

Having studied a decent amount of chinese gun, dao and spear technique I agree that the gun (crudgel) is the simplest to learn. the sword the hardest. especially straight sword. but that ultimatly the spear is nearly unbeatable. next to a firearm it's hard for anything to beat a spear. spears are not just long staffs with a shart pointy thing at the end. they are very sneaky. cleaver, soft, hard, powerful and gentle at the same time. you can do surgical strikes. slashing strikes. use the sharft as a baton, a staff, a tool to disarm or simple to smack the crap out of somebody without ever having to resort to lethal force. the force continuum on a staff is very wide. also spear technique really engages the body to learn real ergonomics and anatomical alignment for maximum power, flexibilty in use of weapon and efficiency. The spear is such a great weapon and teacher that almost all of xingi's weapon less techniques come from modified spear techniques. and xingi is very effective hand to hand art in real life.

Good comment on the spear. it's a real mother.

about ninjitsu's MA history and core background. any insights?

also good and very valid points about jujitsu and MMA. just cause it works in a ring doesn't mean it'll work in the street. on the ground is a very, very bad place to be. you get trampled and beat down by the dude you are wrestling's buddies. always liked the idea of they go down you don't. peopel need to get real. sports and combat are NOT the same. there is no submission.

an BJJ uy is not going to expect you to break out his knee and then break his neck the very next second. but a person studying actual combatatives will do that right off the bat cause it's simple and almost always works. also whats up with those guys chrging at fighters heads down like some shute wrestler going for the legs. stupid stupid stupid. ask any street fighter what happens when you try that stupid stuff in real life. not even gene labelle would recommend what MA guys do. and yes even his septagenerian butt could kick the average 22 year old know nothing MMA fighter ass. and fast.

You know what happens when I see somebody go down to the ground. I don't follow him to get him in a crucible, chicken wing, hammer lock, half guard, etc... I go "damn! is that another invisible empty soda can sitting on your upturned ankle that needs stomping!?! Damn I think it is. better crush that sucker fast to recycle nd help the environment. too bad it's sitting on top of that dudes ankle." Know what I do next when I do that? I go " Damn ANOTHER empty soda can that needs stomping, this time its sitting on his shoulder. F it. I'm gunna stomp on that one too." Recycling is all the rage these days.

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
very interesting post.

QUestion about the geneology of actual ninjitsu. I agree that all modern martial arts are off shoots or evolutions of older styles. I am always trying to trace and analyze the histories and origens of chinese martial arts, but i am also somewhat familiar with japanese, okinawan, and korean MA history too. Right now i'm facinated with song dynasty Hong chuen from the shianxi area of the yellow river. from hong chuen (lao jia hong) came da hong, xiao hong, tai-tzu, taiji concepts, and lots of the long fist curriculum. what did ninjitsu come from.

I can tell you what I know but I can't be specific as far as what styles went into the origins. I could dig up some names if you'd like.

The Bujinkan Taijutsu is made up of nine traditions, It is in fact a mixed martial art. Three of these systems can be classified as Ninja traditions, The others are of samurai traditions and the origins of all modern japanese arts. Each of the ryu have different origins from different sources. Some stem from China, I believe Kukishin may even have origins in the middle east. But it would be accurate to say for the most part that Chinese monks contributed mostly in the foundations.

The 70 or so family clans that made up the Iga traditions that were later reffered to as Ninja were not mountain mystics at all. They were hardened warriors that fought on the battlefields. Not sneeking around asassinating people. This is what the bulk of taijutsu is. In looking at the written techniques of the Densho it's clear they are designed for the battlefield.
This is the real origin, it evolved on the battlefields of ancient japan not the mountain mists.

So yes the mystical Ninja is a myth. The real ninja were unorthodox warriors of the samurai tradition. These are the facts. The preists and mountain mystics were no match for the warrior classes and play an insignificant part of the whole and have only served to romantise the legend.

just curious as to what systems you've explored or settled into along this quest. Sounds like you embrace the philosophy of kajunekenpo, jeet kuen do, wun hop kuen do, or silat. All styles that make no bones about using what works and getting rid of what doesn't.

Yep you got me, coincidently at the moment I am involved in non traditional Wing Chun that stems from Bruce Lee as taught by one of his original students James Demille. I also am involved in modern Jujutsu. I'm also very interested in medieval european battlefield techniques and stategies. I think all arts have something to offer. I think bujinkan shows this since it also is ecclectic, it is a mixed martial art, supporting the notion that any one system is not enough.
Can't say I've settled though.

Also whats your take on these styles and their ever evolving approach to MA/combatatives. Do you like the jeet kuen do way where the art changes from generation to generation depending on the core knowledge and preferences of the head master and never stays the same, always keeping relevant. or do you like the older methods of hybriding martial arts where the style stays the same for centuries although effective like tang lang chuan (N. preying mantis) just curious to get your thoughts.

I think both can have value. In the end it's finding your way. I'd like to have my cake and eat it as well. Two cakes!
Ultimately the masters techniques become simplistic he no longer needs them. To paraphrase Bruce - a punch is just a Punch and a kick is just a kick.

Thanks for your genuine interest, it seems we are of similiar viewpoints.
Cheers.

Good comment on the spear. it's a real mother.

about ninjitsu's MA history and core background. any insights?

Interesting fact for all the movies romanticizing of the Katana, Samurai swordsmen got paid alot less then expert Spearmen who had some of the highest pay in feudal Japan as retained soldiers......the proof is in the pay.....as a symbol the katana is a powerful symbol.....mostly of wealth and lineage......the spear.....that's a symbol of getting it done......Samurai, Legionaires, Immortals, Celts........doesn't matter which...the spear is the end all be all of melee battle weapons......it's useful by those who are untrained, and nearly impossible to match by any other weapon in expert hands.....swords are for buildings and alleys.....spears are for battle.


As for the Ninjitsu history....eh i dunno I'm sure theres some decent people caught up in it....and I won't say it has no value...any art does if the teachers heart is in the right place, and you work hard at it.....but I just really do not take it seriously for any sort of spiritual, or application value compared to others......There's so many more mature systems that combine all of the above....and if you really are interested in ninja myth, there's very active yambushi groups in Japan who will push you beyond your limits in meditation, and just would be so much more of a life changing experience to my mind.......but that's my opinion...I recommend anyone study and research for themselves and make up their own minds.....never take anyone elses opinion as fact.

Really it's much harder to find a good teacher....but in my experience the first indicator is whether they teach for money or for love..the best teachers tend to do it secondary to a primary occupation in something different.

Well, the way I see it is this must be a rhetorical question because if it is real for sure it's not going to be posted up on here, because nobody's going to know about it!

I currently live in Bangkok, in all respects a huge city with a huge population. I see so many people everyday and unless I ask them, I have no idea what kind of people they are or what they do for a living. Suppose I ask them, how do I know they will tell the truth? My point is there are so many people in this world, especially in the East and if you think about it, secret societies have existed and flourished for generations. So how do we know who is who? In my normal day I might see 5 ninjas and I'd never know.

A bunch of super deadly skilled assassins aren't going to leak information about themselves or their activities (which most assuredly are illegal) on the Internet. Even if there was a renegade, I'm sure death would find him swiftly, and quietly : ) but probably not dressed in a black ninja suit, probably dressed casual to blend in.

With that being said, I think, probably they do still exist at least in some form. So you can try and keep your eyes peeled.. but maybe you'd better not.. seems like some things are better left a mystery ; )

365, fork and spoon and others,

365, you are correct it's very hard to tell what an individual knows by simply looking at them. A good training buddy of mine is 6,2-145lbs. a musician by trade and a very approachable guy. no one would suspect that he is a virtuoso of violence. He is the most unassuming guy. he has unkept hair. skinny. loves guitar and keyboards, fixes computers during the day. and oh yeah...trained by some of the best modern day martial arts instructors in the world. his name could be spelled L E A T H A l for all respective reasons. but walking down the street one would never ever know this dude could hand you your ass. The point is there are people out there, especially in thai land who really, really know about cqc (close quarters combat). Watch their body language or how they move. you can always tell a decent warrior apart from a crowd by how they move.

Fork and spoon. I got nothing to add to what you had to say considering it was 100% correct. I too enjoy non traditional to the point martial arts. jeet kun do, silat, Pak Mei, wun hop, pankretion... all of them cut to the point and teach real world self defense. usually through an excellent offense. and I second your points about the spear. nearly unbeatable in the hands of a dedicated and trained martial artist.

I still would like to know what the official prospectus and curriculum of ninjitsu is based off of if anything. I still believe it's nothing more than what ever the individual 'ninja" knew martial arts or trade secret wise.

Also, 365. pros are more than happy to teach their inner sanctum of martial arts and techniques to those they deem worthy. Just approach them and ask intelligent questions the right way and you too will make friends with one. Look at the art and what it's trying to accomplish from their very experienced perspectives. And approach them in a peer like manner. not peer like in the aspect of I can kick ass too. but more in the psychological understanding of the doing what must be done to win and whats realistic and you will make friends with one of these types. Get into their mind set and approach them respectfully. if they like you they will teach you. And the teaching will most likely be free. yes free. I've never met a real martial artist who actually charges for instruction. all the good ones do it for free. you heard me. for free. The best martial arts instruction I've ever received was 100% free. the real guys simply just want to teach a potential peer with potential in their art to share their knowledge with somebody who might actually understabnd them and their viewpoints andf areen't concerned about the money. most of these guys already know how to make money or are vagabond like and simply don't give a s about money. the experience is everything.

now when I said monetarily free I didn't mean free. you are going to be challenged in e4very way during training. you will have to defend yourself from improvised and sudden attacks by your instructor. have to endure almost 100%full contact sparring. Will have to put up with deep bruises and injuries that take weeks to heal/ will have to actually fight during sparring. will get hit. in the head and other parts at nearly full contact...a lot... until you learn not to get suckered by the same strategy that just got you clocked in the head in the first place. the only way to learn to fight or defend your self is to actually gfight and be forced to defend yourself. on the bright side you will experience a 1000% more confidence in certain aspects of your self. and real world training givers you unprecidented spiritual growth that almost no religion could ever hope to match. By sparring and training with these guys and being forced to overcome very hard situation by sure will and focus you will learn more about yourself than years of psychotherapy could ever hope to match. you learn just what kind of person you are. exactly what instincts you do and don't have. what you do under pressure. your personal method of dealing with stress and over coming challenges and all by examining how you reacted when the heat was on. did you shrivel up like a shrinky dink did you turn into an crude tiger lashing out, was everything going too faster and you over reacted to everything blinking and flinching a lot. was it all very slow in hyper awareness. did it frustrate you cause what you thought it would work in real life and didn't. Did you seek revenge or become too narrowly focused when you got tagged in the face by a jab and go for revenge only to get beaten even worse cause your emotions were out of control? Reflecting on all these things at the end of training. meditating on them and becoming calmer, controlling your nervous system and it's reflexive responses are all part of the curriculum and why real martial arts make for such a awesome vehicle for spiritual growth. you learn so much more about who you really are. your strengths and weaknesses and what you need to realistically do to improve them. You will also learn things about your self hidden talent and powers you never knew you had. so I emplore anybody who's interested to learn real martial arts if interested or inclined.

[edit on 8-8-2010 by BASSPLYR]

To answer the portion of the original question about clans.
There are in fact clans still active, as I am jonin of one.
The clans range from underworld groups of dirty soldiers-for-hire,
to enlightened monkish types.
That should clear some things up.