The Torture Papers: The Road to Abu Ghraib

The Torture Papers: The Road To Abu Ghraib


Sooo....am I alone in having read this massive tome?

My initial impression has been one of horror.

The transcripts, original accusatory papers and official documents themselves were horrifying enough. But at times what was worse was reading the eventual admissions of guilt by some of those who carried out the abuse.

Then the horror made way for a deep sense of sadness. Overwhelming sadness, really.

Sadness that so many things led up to this even happening; that the cases of abuse were not isolated events; that so many victims were eventually released without charge; that so few of our military folks over there were trained to deal with the physical, emotional and psychological stressors.

In retrospect, this situation was probably inevitable. Our forces simply weren't prepared to deal with this situation; that's just condoning or justifying their actions, but rather conceding the (now obvious) point that these incredibly difficult circumstances absolutely contributed to the events documented. And there's overwhelming sadness that humans are still doing this to each other.

So, has anyone else read this book?

Originally posted by Tinkleflower

Our forces simply weren't prepared to deal with this situation; that's just condoning or justifying their actions, but rather conceding the (now obvious) point that these incredibly difficult circumstances absolutely contributed to the events documented...

are you justifying their actions.

if not then what situation? what difficult circumstances ?

its a relatively simple task for the prison officers to keep the prisoners from escaping. no abuse is not required.

if interrogators committed the torture then it shows that they planned it.

if the guards did the abuse, then it has no relation to the "situation" or the circumstances"

They were simply suppose to keep the doors locked.


maybe your feelings are not clear on this grave matter.



[edit on 16-9-2005 by mr conspiracy]

Yes, my feelings are quite clear.

It's appalling.

What situation, you ask?

What extreme circumstances?

Are you aware of the reality of being posted to Abu Ghraib? Are you aware of the sheer stress involved in such a post?

I'm genuinely curious - you seem to be treating this as if it's no big deal to live and work in those conditions.

Admittedly, my initial post was meant to say "that's NOT just condoning or justifying their actions,.." - my grammatical error may have led you to perceive something that wasn't intended.

I'm not sure how you conclude that if the guards did the abuse, then it was no relation to the situation. Could you elaborate further?

Please understand me here - nothing I have said is condoning or justifying the abuse.

And, out of sheer curiosity - have you read the book?

i am relieved that torture horrifies you. thanks for clarifying. and no, i have not read the book.


it is not a big deal to be a guard at a prison.

i would say that fighting in central Baghdad might be an extreme condition for some soilders, but it is certainly not a bad environment where they are indoors simply looking after unarmed detainees.

no situation can give justification that a guard commits torture on another human being, no matter how evil that human being is.

the fact that torture is evil has nothing to do with circumstances.

Torturers are worse than murderers.




[edit on 16-9-2005 by mr conspiracy]

Again, torture was not, and is not, being justified.

Though I do think you're underestimating the conditions.

Once again, it's not being justified. But if we're to prevent it from happening, we've got to try and understand why it happened.

It's just not as simple as "they're evil", or "they're just sadistic bad people".