ww2: Allies (Soviets most of all..) victorious against Nazi terror..

"After the Battle of Kursk in July 1943, the Germans took up defensive positions and fell back in an orderly retreat. The Red Army, now with aggressive, confident commanders like Georgi Zhukov and Vasily Chuikov backed by increasing quantities of tanks, aircraft, planes and men, supplemented by deliveries from the United States and the United Kingdom, created a very large force that the Soviets were able to convert from defense at Kursk to offense almost immediately.

On August 6, 1943, the Russians recaptured Orel, the Germans losing another 1,500 tanks in addition to the losses at Kursk. Zhukov moved across the Russian Steppe, taking Kharkov on August 23, Smolesk on September 25, and Kiev on November 6. Another 1,500 tanks were destroyed in these operations. Hitler ordered a scorched-earth policy to deny the Russians the benefits of their own territories.

The Red Army was bringing to bear a huge force that almost outnumbered the Germans two-to-one. 5,700,000 Soviet troops oppose 3,000,000 Germans and their national units, and now hold overwhelming superiority in tanks and artillery. The Soviet Union had learned the lessons the Germans had taught them in 1941 and were going to pay their teachers back.

Since 1941 Army Group North held fairly static positions near the Soviet Finnish border. Along Army Group North�s front, both sides dug miles of trenches reminiscent of World War I. The static position of the Northern front allowed the Germans to pull needed men off the line for other fronts. As breakthroughs were made by the Soviets elsewhere, the massive size of the Red Army allowed a buildup in the north. In January 1944, the Red Army broke trough to Leningrad. The siege wasn�t lifted, but a rail line would help sustain the city. The same month the Red Army attacked the Crimea and drove the Germans out of Sevastopol on May 9, 1944. An attempt to withdrawal the German garrison by sea left half of the 65,000 troops behind.

Almost all of the gains of the summer of 1941 were back in Soviet hands. Army Group Center held the last major areas of Soviet territory. Hitler, who knew that the Germans would face an Allied invasion of France within a few months, stopped reinforcing the Eastern Front. He considered having his forces take up defensive positions behind what he called the �East Wall� but there wasn�t time to even survey defensive positions before the Russians crashed through.

Increasingly Hitler and his staff looked to a crushing victory in the West to stave off total collapse. If the invasion could be stopped, then 45% of the 59 divisions awaiting the Allies could be sent to the Eastern Front. Reichminister Albert Speer, now in charge of German war production, increased tank and aircraft production by forty percent over a year earlier. Volkssturm divisions, old men and young boys, were created to fill the ranks of new divisions. Hitler and the Nazis were gambling that they could repeat the success of 1940-1941.

But the Allies were too well prepared. Despite the Soviets� disinclination to coordinate a new offensive with the landings, Operation Overlord succeeded, and most of the Wehrmacht divisions in France were destroyed. Allied planes, flying shuttle missions and bombing around the clock, seriously crippled or curtained German synthetic oil production. Raids on Ploesti, Romania, where the Germans refined much of their natural oil, reduced the amount of gasoline available to Hitler�s war machine.

As the Allies were beginning their landings in Normandy, the Germans expected attacks in the North and the South on the Eastern Front. Hitler and his staff reinforced Army Group North and Army Group South, both of which had been hard hit in the Soviet Offensives of 1943-1944. To make these reinforcements, they stripped Army Group Center of 80% of their panzers.

Army Group Center was the target. Outthinking Hitler and his general staff, the Russians attacked on June 22. Hitler refused to allow those units that were still in place to retreat, and the front began to collapse. By July 3 the Army was retreating without Hitler�s permission, and two-thirds of the Ninth Army was destroyed. When the last avenue of escape was closed with the recapture of Minsk, 25 of 38 Army Group Center divisions were destroyed.

On June 28 Hitler combined the Command of Army Group Center and Army Group North Ukraine under FeldmarschallWalther Model. This was too late to save Army Group Center, and Model could only stabilize his front and wait for the Red Army to lose momentum.

On July 13, The First Belorussian Front and the First Ukrainian Front under Zhukov and Vasilevski began an attack that pushed the Germans into Poland. Within two weeks the Red Army was sitting outside the capital. Stalin ordered them to wait and let the London-based Polish Home Army expire under German guns, saving him a potential postwar rival for political power.

On August 20, the Red Army attacked Romania, a Nazi ally, and advanced on the ruins of German oil production in Ploesti on August 30. The Sixth and Eighth German armies were encircled near Kishinev. The Romanians accepted Allied surrender terms and declared war on Germany on August 23.

Bulgaria, another German ally, was invaded on September 8, and asked for armistice on the next day. She too declared war on Germany. This cut off Army Groups E and F in Greece, Albania and Yugoslavia. A forced march through the mountains of Yugoslavia under attack from Tito�s partisans was completed in mid-November. On September 28, the Red Army began its liberation of Yugoslavia and marched on the capital of Belgrade on October 20.

On November 8, Red Army units reached Budapest in Hungary, another German ally. The city�s defenses held up the Third Ukrainian Front for six weeks, as the Sixth and Eighth Armies, backed by the retreating Army Groups E and F, fought hard. On December 27, Budapest fell under attack from two Soviet Army Fronts. A Soviet-sponsored government declared war on Germany on December 29.

Finland had seen static fighting for years, but with the advances all over the Soviet Union, it was only a matter of time before the Finns were threatened with invasion. The German Twentieth Mountain Army, after failing to take Leningrad, was left in a void after the Finns were attacked and thrown out of the war in a three month offensive from June-September 1944. The Germans marched out of Finland, withdrawing 500 miles across arctic wilderness. The Finns, in accordance with their Russian armistice treaty, tried to disarm the Twentieth Mountain Army. After some clashes, they escaped unmolested. German troops in Norway held the Russians inside Finland, ending the offensive in the North. Finland entered the war against Germany on March 3, 1945.

The Red Army, reinvigorated and victorious, had pushed their enemies out of Soviet territory. They would now destroy them on their own ground. The Third Reich, which Hitler had boasted would last for a thousand years, had months to live."

This i think will make most diehard "US won fanatic" to see the facts.. regardles what they told "you" at school..

[Edited on 22-8-2003 by FULCRUM]

This belongs in the mudslinging forum, hence its propaganda style composition.

This is not propaganda.. belive me.

www.worldwar2database.com...

I still fail to see how this proves that Russia ALONE won WW2. They were a key ally yes, but they werent by themselves. For the record, I have always respected thier contribution to the war, and admired their victories over Hitler (as I do all of the Allies in WW2). I was tought here in America that the Russians took on the largest part of the German warmachine. I respect that. I was also tought that our American forces (wich were all pretty green at the start of WW2) were largely responsible for taking out Italy and Japan.

Originally posted by Langolier
I still fail to see how this proves that Russia ALONE won WW2. They were a key ally yes, but they werent by themselves. For the record, I have always respected thier contribution to the war, and admired their victories over Hitler (as I do all of the Allies in WW2). I was tought here in America that the Russians took on the largest part of the German warmachine. I respect that. I was also tought that our American forces (wich were all pretty green at the start of WW2) were largely responsible for taking out Italy and Japan.

This is a statement that i respect and agree with.. GOOD.

Ok UNINEN, you obviously don't listen to anyone, so here goes. Your beloved Russia had no intention of entering the war, as did the US. Russia was invaded against a treaty with the nazis that its leaders signed. The United States was caught by surprise. Russia warred with Germany, but payed no real physical attention to Japan. The United states, fought a war on 2 fronts, like Germany did. We were fighting three enemies, Russia was fighting one. Russia unmercifully sent its soldiers, half of the time unarmed, in the millions to their deaths against superior German Technology and training. The United States crippled the Italians, eradicated Japan, and destroyed the western aggression of the nazis. Russia simply pushed the Nazi's back. Your points are invalid.

Fulcrum is obviously only concerned about the EASTERN FRONT and has totally forgotten that there even was a WESTERN FRONT as well. To him Russia was the only opponent of Hitler and the rest of Europe simply did not exist.

groingrinder, no! Im just pointing out that USSR was the KEY FACTOR.

goregrinder,

1) Germany didnt have any "powerful allies" just small nations of 4-10 million people each.
2) Russia did at last moment CRUSH the Japanese Manchurian army, US would prefered that they (soviets..) wouldnt.
3) Russians did do that, send half armed troops into combat in 1941, but not 1942, 43 ,44 and 1945.. by 1943 Soviets had best equipet and largest army in the world.
4) US didnt even want to invade Italy it was mostly UK campaing.
5) Russia (USSR..) Delayed, Pushed back and CRUSHED Germans.
6) US won the air and sea war against Japan, But Britts also heavily fought against them in Burma..

According to Churchill's record Stalin asked all through 1942 and 1943 for a second front to be opened.
I agree with goinggrinder and Fulcrum.
The war was won by the allies.Britain(ANZAC and others included) tied down two fronts in the earl stages in Africa and the Battle of Britain while also playing a role in the war in the Pacific from it's earliest stages.The US won the Pacific war and helped to finish the European war earlier.Russia fought the backbone of the German Army at great sacrifice.
In my opinion Britain could not have fought Germany and Japan and won.Though the manpower resources of the remnants of Empire were still great.Britain was over stretched.Russia would have defeated Germany in the long run but it was in no ones interests that they should be allowed to.The US could not have defeated both without one or both of her allies.
Remember Russia was not at war with Japan only with Germany.Russia only declared war on Japan very near the end.So only Britain and the US were stretched.

All who fought were heroes.The world would be a different place if our Grandparents and in some cases Great Grandparents hadn't made sacrifices.
We should not denigrate those that fought because of they're ideology.




[Edited on 22-8-2003 by John bull 1]

I agree with John. I'm out of this nonsensical convo.

Peace

Originally posted by goregrinder
I agree with John. I'm out of this nonsensical convo.

Peace

What ever.. But hardly was ww2 and its outcome "nonsensical"..

What ever.. But hardly was ww2 and its outcome "nonsensical"..

Please stop putting words in my mouth. Agree to disagree.

Originally posted by goregrinder
Ok UNINEN, you obviously don't listen to anyone, so here goes. Your beloved Russia had no intention of entering the war, as did the US. Russia was invaded against a treaty with the nazis that its leaders signed. The United States was caught by surprise. Russia warred with Germany, but payed no real physical attention to Japan. The United states, fought a war on 2 fronts, like Germany did. We were fighting three enemies, Russia was fighting one. Russia unmercifully sent its soldiers, half of the time unarmed, in the millions to their deaths against superior German Technology and training. The United States crippled the Italians, eradicated Japan, and destroyed the western aggression of the nazis. Russia simply pushed the Nazi's back. Your points are invalid.

Russia did suffer the worst of the German's campaigns. They were fighting far greater numbers of Germans than the western allies, and turned the tide of the war at Stalingrad before a single American or British soldier set foot on the beaches of Normandy. The Russians eradicated the German armies, obliterated Berlin, and were the first to enter the city, bringing an end to the war.

I do understand that America was fighting on two fronts, commited millions of men and dollars to their war effort, and liberated several countries, but they were never really attacked on their own soil. The Russians were invaded by a country whom they thought they had a peace treaty with, and were unprepared for it.

The Germans commited far more men and machines to the Eastern front than to the West. They were brutal and inhuman in their treatment of the Soviet poulation, who they saw as sub-human. They massacred millions of innocent civilians and showed no mercy towards Soviet POWs. The Russians had it a hell of a lot worse than the Americans or British. Still, the Red Army prevailed, a more tremendous achievement than anything accomplished in the West.

The above points are perfectly valid, take a history lesson and stop imagining your own version of events. Seems you've been paying to much attention to Hollywood movies, if you watched all of those films and nothing else about the war, you'd be led to believe that the U.S.A fought the war single handed, rather than alongside several allies, having arrived two years late.

[Edited on 22-8-2003 by CiderGood_HeadacheBad]

Uh, cider; this is UNINEN.

" The Russians had it a hell of a lot worse than the Americans or British."

Don't forget the treatment of the British at the hands of the Japanese.

But in general your correct.

Gentlemen, it was a "team" effort.....to imply that one carried more of a burden then the other makes the "team" concept pointless........

regards
seekerof

Soviets thought that they were in alliance with Germans.. add insult to injury.. and i think it is fair to say that during first 2 weeks of Operation Barbarossa Soviets lost more men and equipment (men at least..) than western allies in whole war..

Just maybe im not such a nazi after all? Like i told you.. And Seekerof.. Soviets did indeed.. carry the main burden.. most of the casualities.. most of the horrors.. 25 million civilians dead, 25 million soldiers dead.. 7 million POWs and Unknown, but huge number of injured..

FULCRUM.....

I am, in no way, discounting the large effort put forth by the Soviet Union.......what I am discounting is the absense of you mentioning that it was a "team" effort by all members of the Allied "Team."

I see no need to divide the "team" up into who did what, who lost what, etc.....
The "picture" is painted my friend and it has a multitude of faces on it claiming victory over Nazism and Hitler/Germany. History will record thusly.
So what is with all the "paint thinner?"
What is your point behind the obvious?
This instills nothing but division and diversity.

regards
seekerof

Check the topic "bastards...." this started there.. I am not saying that the Soviets did it alone.. im just saying that they made MOST of the work.. Soviets being the "center player" and UK and US more like defenders..