Revelation 8:4-5 And the smoke of the incense,

Revelation 8:4-5
And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the Saints,
ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the alter,and cast it into the earth:and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

The punishments described immediately after this are without doubt the consequences of this prayer.
The Lord shows here that He doesn't leave without attentrion the prayers of His faithful servants.
The voices and thunderings and the rest ''indicate the horrors which are to occur before the end (of the world ),just as on Mt. Sinai they served as symbols of the Divine Presence which frightened everyone and brought the most sensible of them to conversion''(St Andrew , ch.21)
*The casting of the fire of the censer on the earth indicates the Divine Judgement manifested on earth.See Ezekiel 10:2 where the coals of fire scattered over the city indicate the chastisement of Jerusalem.

taken from ''The Apocalypse'' In the Teachings of Ancient Christianity......

What are you trying to say exactly....??? Sounds to me like he's turning the prayers of the Saints into a weapon of fire against man.....

This is the prayers that the Saints offered to God for all mankind ....and God received the prayers of the rightous for all of mankind .... the people did believe on behalf of the the prayers offered by them in intercession .....God did listen to the faithful servants ...

Revelation 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Here there follow the sounding of the trumpets one after the other, of all seven angels, which are accompanied each time by great disasters and punishments for the earth and its inhabitants.

Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth;and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

The chastisements of God follow gradually, indicating the mercy and long suffering of God, calling sinners to repentance.
At first the chastisement of God strikes a third of the trees and all the green grass.Wheat and other grasses are burned to the root.....those things which are necessary for the feeding of men and animals.By ''hail and fire mingled with blood... cast upon the earth'',many commentors understand a war of extermination.Does this not refer to an aerial bombardment with its destructive and incendiary bombs?
''The fire mingled with blood indicates the destruction of cities....their fires and blood-letting, during which ,as we see, there will be killed not less then a third part of all the creatures living on earth;wars exterminate not only men, but also everything produced on earth.Our supposition and opinion regarding this is confirmed by the blessed Joel, for he says that before the coming of the great day there will be sent on earth blood and fire and vapour of smoke(Joel 2:30 )''
(St Andrew, ch. 22 )

Revelation 8:8-9 And the second angel sounded, as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; and a third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
One may suppose that on the bottom of one of the oceans there will open up a volcano whose fiery lava will fill the third part of the water basins of the earth. bringing death to everything alive.Others think that what is referred to here are the fearful bloody sea battles with the help of newly invented murderous weapons.
'''The Apocalypse''' in the teachings of Ancient Christianity.....

Originally posted by Gazrok
What are you trying to say exactly....??? Sounds to me like he's turning the prayers of the Saints into a weapon of fire against man.....

Hi Gazrok.....
Sorry for the late response....Better late then never!


The FIRE....when one is consumed by FIRE it means(in the Bible) that one is consumed by their own ''sins'' it will burn because it is what fire does.....it consumes eveything that it comes in contact with.....FIRE being it cleanses and becomes clean.......like the Flood that cleansed all sin in the Old Testament....

Only this time in Revelation, it will consume all SIN...the Earth will become changed....
helen...

In Rev. 5:8 we are told that "golden vials full of odours" are the prayers of the saints.

Since I am a saint according to the Biblical definition, while I desire God's return and an end to evil, I think these prayers are for people's salvation and God to return and wrongs to be righted. Yes, judgement is coming upon the earth during the tribulation, but that is for God to handle.

quote//By means of mental prayer the passions(our sins) are tamed, just as Daniel tamed the wild beasts.
It draws the dew of the Holy Spirit down into the heart, just as the prayers of Elijah brought down rain upon Mt. Carmel.
This mental prayer reaches the very throne of God where it is treasured in golden vials and like a censer it gives off a sweet fragrance 'before the Lord just as St. John the Theologian saw in his revelation: Four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb,
having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours,
which are the prayers of saints (Rev. 5:8).
This mental prayer is the light enlightening man's soul and enkindling his heart with the fire of love towards God.
It is the chain uniting God to man and man to God. O, there is nothing that can compare to the grace of mental prayer! It makes man a constant converser with God. O truly wondrous and most wondrous work! In the body you are with people, but mentally you converse with God.
www.roca.org...
helen...

Originally posted by helen670
quote//By means of mental prayer the passions(our sins) are tamed, It draws the dew of the Holy Spirit down into the heart,

Maybe you are just saying it in a more "poetic" way, but I have to disagree with you.

My sins are forgiven through Christ's already completed work, of which I accept as the sole basis for my salvation, and because the Holy Spirit lives in me (I mean this literally) He gives me the strength to say no to sin.

Revelations was written centuries after Jesus walked the earth Helen670 by a person/ persons who never met him.

It's threats fire and brimstone and really shouldn't be taken seriously.

YOu can anyhting to anything Helen670...worth remembering I think

Originally posted by BobDylan
Revelations was written centuries after Jesus walked the earth Helen670 by a person/ persons who never met him.

It's threats fire and brimstone and really shouldn't be taken seriously.

YOu can anyhting to anything Helen670...worth remembering I think

Exactly Revelations has a lot of controversy about it, even the writter was debate on, the church really didn't wanted to added to the bible and was not canonized like the other books.

Actually many attribute the revelations to be only of concern to First century times.

The reason for concern to be addaed was just this'''It would cause confusion''
And it has to those that think they can interpret it the way they feel in their own mind can be interpreted....

Yes, Christ died for our sins.........but c'mon, it is not that easy........we have to work at it....
We sin everyday and just because we are Christian ......does not mean that we are SAVED.......
Our STRUGGLES and SUFFERINGS are part of SIN and this will go on till we die ......but the spiritual death is when Christ came and destroyed ''DEATH'' by the sin of Adam and Eve.......
Golgotha..........the land of the SKULL ....what skull?
Adam is said to be buried there......and when Christ was crucified, Adams skull was purified by the blood that spilt from Christ.........and DEATH was no more!
We have purification from Body and blood of Christ.....communion...
We have the Babtism .......instituted by Christ Himself.....
We have the Church..............Instituted by Christ Himself....Christ Himself being the chief corner stone (Eph 2,20)
The church being the Pillar and ground of truth (1Tim.3,15)Christ and His Holy Apostles preached ....
helen....

Originally posted by helen670
The reason for concern to be addaed was just this'''It would cause confusion''
And it has to those that think they can interpret it the way they feel in their own mind can be interpreted....

Yes, Christ died for our sins.........but c'mon, it is not that easy........we have to work at it....
We sin everyday and just because we are Christian ......does not mean that we are SAVED.......
Our STRUGGLES and SUFFERINGS are part of SIN and this will go on till we die

Hi helen670
I don't think we are saying the same thing. A person who accepts Christ still has the capability to sin and does sin. Those sins after salvation have already been dealt with at the cross, and we are to grow in the knowledge of Christ and if we are doing this we will sin less in frequency and intensity.

Salvation is easy for us, we place our faith in Christ and what He has done. The hard part was accomplished by Him on the cross. He did what we could have never done. I agree we acknowledge our sins and learn and grow and mentally choose right from wrong, but we have that power because Christ lives in us.

That is our work of salvation, not for salvation.

I would also say that to be a christian is to have accepted Christ and meant it and the free gift of eternal life is given to that person. A christian is someone who is saved, those to words are synonomous. There is no such thing as an unsaved christian, for they are not a christian at all.

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by helen670
The reason for concern to be addaed was just this'''It would cause confusion''
And it has to those that think they can interpret it the way they feel in their own mind can be interpreted....

Yes, Christ died for our sins.........but c'mon, it is not that easy........we have to work at it.....
We sin everyday and just because we are Christian ......does not mean that we are SAVED.......
Our STRUGGLES and SUFFERINGS are part of SIN and this will go on till we die

Hi helen670
I don't think we are saying the same thing. A person who accepts Christ still has the capability to sin and does sin. Those sins after salvation have already been dealt with at the cross, and we are to grow in the knowledge of Christ and if we are doing this we will sin less in frequency and intensity.

Salvation is easy for us, we place our faith in Christ and what He has done. The hard part was accomplished by Him on the cross. He did what we could have never done. I agree we acknowledge our sins and learn and grow and mentally choose right from wrong, but we have that power because Christ lives in us.

That is our work of salvation, not for salvation.

I would also say that to be a christian is to have accepted Christ and meant it and the free gift of eternal life is given to that person. A christian is someone who is saved, those to words are synonomous. There is no such thing as an unsaved christian, for they are not a christian at all.

Hi dbrandt//
Let me get this straight!
Your saying that once you become a Christian......That's it!
This is not the case...
Of course there is such a thing as.......'' an unsaved Christian''.....now, im not judging but we all will be judged(whether we die now or at the end of the world(this judgement at the end will be the final)......do you beleive that once you become a Christian you are saved?
Coz, that is wrong.......
Becoming a Christian is not what will save us(To die in Christ egBABTISM.signifies we die that spiritual death and emerse renewed... ).....to be a Christian as Christ said....you have to be like Christ was..(as man He showed us what needs to be done)
The free gift of ETERNAL LIFE is given to all MANKIND!
There is Judgement coming to each and every person on earth....whether one is Christian or not, ALL WILL BE JUDGED....
This is something that no one will escape......whether one beleives this or not, it will happen.....Christ said that No one will escape Judgement Day....which goes for all Christians........
To beleive otherwise, is a big mistake...(now I did not make this up...not my opinion....if it was then I would change it....but this is how it is)
helen....

Originally posted by helen670

Let me get this straight!
Your saying that once you become a Christian......That's it!
This is not the case...
.....do you beleive that once you become a Christian you are saved?
To beleive otherwise, is a big mistake...(now I did not make this up...not my opinion....if it was then I would change it....but this is how it is)
helen....

A christian is someone who has accepted Jesus Christ as Saviour. That means you trust by faith in His sacrifice in your place. That the sins I have committed and will commit were placed upon Jesus while He was on the cross and the wrath of God was directed toward Him, and He received the punishment that I deserved. God tells us He will never leave nor forsake us.

Once you have truly received Christ you will live a different life because Christ(Holy Spirit) lives in us and changes us as we yield to Him. We then do good works because we are saved, not to be saved.

Christians will stand before Christ at a judgement seat, but it is only to be rewarded or have loss of reward. It is not to find out where we will spend eternity. Our sins are forgiven through Christ, and He remembers our sins no more, they have been removed from us.

Those rejecting Christ will face the judgement because they have rejected Christ and chosen to retain their sins. This will mean seperation from God, forever.

From what I get from your answers, you are saying that salvation is based upon our works, our own efforts to be acceptable to God. You also say this is not your opinion. Could you tell me who's it is because I would like to know and read their belief system.

You pretty much hit it on the nose.

The hardest thing for humans to do is 'LET GO' Give God control.
When you ask for salvation, you are also releasing control of your life over to God. Salvation is a gift of God. Free for the asking by those who ask..and believe. Once you are saved, you will not feel like an angel or brand new creation. You will be new tho. YOur now part of Gods family. You are dead to the sins you use to love, the life of sin you use to live.
Now you will set out to do the things of God.
NOT to pay for salvation, but because you want to.
Now the Holy Spirit will start to mold you into what God wants. Chopping away the dead parts and the rough edges, pruning the dead branches, leaving only what God wants.
The work will not be finished until you meet Christ.

Originally posted by jake1997
The hardest thing for humans to do is 'LET GO' Give God control.
When you ask for salvation, you are also releasing control of your life over to God. Salvation is a gift of God. Free for the asking by those who ask..and believe. Once you are saved, you will not feel like an angel or brand new creation. You will be new tho. YOur now part of Gods family. You are dead to the sins you use to love, the life of sin you use to live.
Now you will set out to do the things of God.
NOT to pay for salvation, but because you want to.
Now the Holy Spirit will start to mold you into what God wants. Chopping away the dead parts and the rough edges, pruning the dead branches, leaving only what God wants.
The work will not be finished until you meet Christ.

Thank you for being another to reinforce that salvation is based solely on what Jesus Christ has done on the cross. Thank you for reinforcing that good works do not lead to salvation, but are a result of salvation. This is the truth, and it is getting harder and harder to come by.