Does it make sense to you?

There are so many bizarre things that happened that day, and have yet to be answered for, that I suspect there is more to the story than we are being told. Why did NORAD totally drop the ball that day? Why did Andrews Air Force Base fall asleep at the wheel too? Why did the hijackers wait so long before they acted, so long that if NORAD and AAFB had followed their S.O.P. their plan would have been foiled. Why did Bush say he saw the first plane hit live... he couldn't have. Slip of the tongue? Why did four black boxes, and four flight recorders, which are designed to withstand tremendous abuse all fail? Not one in eight was usable? The number of oddities surrounding the tragedy are too many for me to just ignore and accept the line that is being sold.

Originally posted by CatHerder
Mindboggling.

I'll play devil's advocate for you. The difference is being able to perform subversive acts within one's own country and within a different country.

As well, certainly the US government would have been able to perpetrate the findings of WMDs in Iraq. All they have to do is load them on one of thousands of army trucks in Iraq, and then "find" them.

Assuming the US government did actively participate in 9/11, the question becomes one of what their intentions were and whether intentionally committing 9/11 and intentionally not planting WMDs in Iraq would be able to mesh.

And there are plenty of scenarios where these plans would be complementary. Such as, the US government needed to divide the citizens of the US, thus, they went to Iraq and found no WMDs, but the only way a significant amount of citizens/congress would approve of going to Iraq in the first place would be if it were in the wake of some major attack such as 9/11. This is probably one of the simpler, most plausible scenarios in my opinion.

If WMDs existed, I doubt that the many agents that were inside Iraq before and throughout the war were unable to find out where any of them were. The accusation that they were sent to Syria, or some other nearby nation is unproven, and the satellite surveillance of the area by the west is unlikely to have seen anything suspicious. Are the western secret service orgs and satellite technology that poor? Is Iraq that cunning? I doubt it.
Besides, other nations, N. Korea, certain Arabic Monarchies, etc. are just as worthy of invasion. So I bet that the WMD thing was a well planned and executed ruse, an excuse to get control of ...... of course, oil.
Far fetched? Makes logical sense to me.

Originally posted by CatHerder
So far "the government" (this means the US and now Britain) is supposedly able to:

• Steal 4 commercial airliners without anyone at the air ports noticing
  
• Murder 3 passenger lists and crew rosters after landing said aircraft
  
• Remote control fly 3 planes into 3 different buildings
  
• Forget to remote control the 4th plane into the 4th building
  
• Shoot down 4th plane when either the pasengers attempt to regain control of it from apparent hijackers (as reported by multiple phonecalls to 911 and relatives of passengers), or allow said aircraft to crash during the attempt to retake control (again - forgetting to remote control fly the plane)
  
• Sneak over 60 bodies into a burning building (Pentagon) without anyone noticing
  
• Sneak thousands of pounds of wreckage into a burning building without any of the 200+ civilian fire and rescure personnel noticing
  
• Sneak thousands of remote detonation charges into 2 buildings occupied and used by over 15,000 people daily - without being noticed
  
• Set up demolition charges in 2 of the world's largest buildings without any of the 200+ onsite security, building engineers, maintenance, or policemen noticing
  
• Cut or partially cut thousands of support columns in two of the worlds largest buildings without anyone noticing
  
• Remote detonate charges in buildings while fires rage on multiple floors
  
• Clean all trace of explosives from the site so no NYPD or NYFD people find any in the rubble
  
• Clean all trace of explosives from over 180 huge pieces of steel sent to multiple labs for testing
  
• Clean all trace of explosives from over 200 pieces of WTC wreckage, including 2 pieces of the 757, which travel the world as part of an exhibit on 9/11
  
• Clean all trace of explosives from ALL the steel before sending it to an unfriendly nation for disposal -- disposal by a nation that would gain enormous international prestiege by discovering anything out of the ordinary (traces of explosives) on/with the steel
  
• Detonate three bombs on trains in London underground
  
• Detonate one bomb in a bus in front of multiple witnesses who report a middle eastern suicide bomber, including two witnesses who say they saw the man explode

But the same governement that can carry out all that is somehow unable to sneak WMDs into Iraq to prove to the world that one of their primary stated reasons for invading Iraq was justified.

How can a group of government people be so incredibly competent to supposedly carry out the greatest fraud in our lifetime yet be so utterly incompetent that they can't even sneak in a couple jugs of chemical weapons (Tabun, Sarin, Soman, GF gas, VX gas, etc) into a country like Iraq? Or, for that matter, sneak a couple cups of anthrax, ricin, saxitoxin, RVF, trichothecene mycotoxins, tularemia, small pox, plague or any other biological weapon component into the country?

Mindboggling.

I can't believe you're serious about this...


1) I've never heard anyone argue that the planes werent hijacked. I believe 7 of the 24 or 25 hijackers have been found still alive, most are pilots with saudi airlines.

2) The thought was that they used a chemical agent to knock out the passangers, this is speculative of course. No one will ever know, conspiracy theorists tend to stick to the facts that they can prove.

3) Again, i haven't heard anyone argue that the planes werent hijacked. (I've watched every movie, and read every book.)

4) Cheney was in command of norad (first time VP ever took control of a military base ... EVER) before the attacks ever begun. Reports i've heard say that he told the general to stand down multiple times, and that the general disobeyed direct orders and ordered the plane in pennsylvania shot down.

5) Sneak bodies into the pentagon? I never saw any bodies in the pentagon. I saw a box with a blue tarp over it being carried out, that is all. I watched the mainstream news religiously and saw no reports of any bodies, or any major pieces of wreckage. There were also 2 different reports of exactly what happened.. 1) A plane (half say it was a 747, half say it was a small 20 passanger commuter jet) that banked to (half say left, half say right) flew over head about (half say 25, half say 50) then either (half say, it dug its left wing into the lawn, other half dont mention it) then slammed intot he pentagon.

I was watching the news, there was no damage to the pentagon lawn.

6) Thousands of pounds? The engines alone were 6 tons each, a 747 weights aprox 339,000lbs and is comprised of light weight alloys comprised mostly of aluminum.

Wingspan: 211 feet 5 inches
Length: 231 feet 10 inches
Height: 63 feet 8 inches
Wing Area: 5,825 square feet

I'm not sure if you're talking about the pentagon or the twin towers?

7) The remote detonation charges, i love when i hear this one.

Marvin Bush (george's younger brother) was a principle at securacom, the company hired to do the security for the WTC complex. During the weeks leading up to 9/11 (confirmed by people who survived) there were several power outages in the towers on key floors for what were called "cabling upgrades to improve the bandwidth of the networks". During this time power to the security cameras was cut, and there were dozens of engineers going in and out of the buildings.

8) I'm not sure where you got the idea that there were "thousands" of colums in the twin towers. There were 47 central colums and something like 150ish exterior colums, if enough of these central colums are damaged the building will collapse. The colums were comprised of a steel alloy (melting point roughly 1600 degrees celsius) the maximum temp of a fire (regardless of the fuel, unless it has its own oxygen supply in powder form) is 1000c. Thermite, the explosive compound used to demolish buildings is made of aluminum dust and iron oxide (rust) which burns at a temp of 3000c. If the fires were really that bad, how could people stand in the hole left by the engine of the aircraft, one would think there would be molten pools of steel in that entire area.. Hmm...

9) The "terrorists" used cell phones to detonate carbombs, what do fires have to do with it?

10) Actually IMHO i think they did a pretty bad job of cleaning it up, the video tapes from inside the lobby show a fine dust coating everything.. A sign of high explosives, not a raging fire. Plus, how did those several hundred pound marble slabs get knocked off the wall? They had huge bolts in them.. I guess it was the terrible explosion from plane (right.)

11) Why would they care? The UK was caught planting bombs to blame it on the IRA.. Russian KGB were caught planting bombs to blame it on czechnian rebels. This isnt anything new, dates back to the roman era.

12) You can clean it off pretty easy, hose it down with some chemical cleaner. The metal was shipped off to a COMPANY in a country to be melted down, dont miscontrue that as saying that the third party nation itself was smelting. I don't know of any US Govt operated smelting mills in america.

13) London, London, London... Given the above, i don't find it necessary to go into details about london, that would take another 20 mins. All i have to say is, if the bomb was on the seat (not under the bus, not that im disputing that it was) where is the video tape? There was no major damage to the underside of the bus where the tape is stored. Oh, and about your "muslim" comment, almost 20% of the population in the UK are muslims. The percentage is far higher than in america, they were once considered the western mecca for muslims.

14) I've also, never seen anyone argue that the "government" pulled it off. By all means i do not believe it to be the government. Most senators, fire fighters, police, judges, and presidents really arent bad people. It is rogue elements of the cia, and the government (rogue...) that have been altering intelligence since the early 70s to try to rule through fear. The same people that were giving the intelligence to the president in the 70s are the same people who currently work for the president, one being his vice president =)

These people want to divide and conquer, conjur up fake hate and fear between east and west then come in as the "savior" to the world. There cannot be a one world government with the united states all high and mighty on its horse. The 10 year war we're about to have in iraq will bring us down a bit, then 1 nuke goes off, martial law declared, and the formation of the new world order will begin.

What i find mind boggling is the fact that, this has happened before. You'd think that people would learn from nero, hitler, rogue kgb, and rogue mi6. But like hitler said... "What luck for rulers, that men do not think."




[edit on 28-8-2005 by senseless04]

Originally posted by senseless04

1) I've never heard anyone argue that the planes werent hijacked. I believe 7 of the 24 or 25 hijackers have been found still alive, most are pilots with saudi airlines.

First, Read this

. Also, the concept of using fraudulent identification documents isn't unknown amongst groups who wish to work outside of the law. We know that some of the names used were falsely obtained.

2) The thought was that they used a chemical agent to knock out the passangers, this is speculative of course. No one will ever know, conspiracy theorists tend to stick to the facts that they can prove.

In other words, just another unfounded rumour? Wouldn't such a substance have been detected in toxicology tests?

(snip).... that the general disobeyed direct orders and ordered the plane in pennsylvania shot down.

There was an order to shoot down the plane. The order wasn't carried out, according to the official report - I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

5) Sneak bodies into the pentagon? I never saw any bodies in the pentagon. I saw a box with a blue tarp over it being carried out, that is all. I watched the mainstream news religiously and saw no reports of any bodies, or any major pieces of wreckage.

Were you at the Pentagon at the time? Just curious.

"Following approximately 2½ weeks of remains processing and two months of DNA analysis, 183 unique identities were generated from the remains of those killed in the attack on the Pentagon".

From this source

(snip) Oh, and about your "muslim" comment, almost 20% of the population in the UK are muslims. The percentage is far higher than in america, they were once considered the western mecca for muslims.

I think you're mistaken. Around 3% of the UK population are Muslim. Muslim population in UK

"There were 1.6 million Muslims living in Britain in 2001. This group comprised 3 per cent of the total population and over half (52 per cent) of the non-Christian religious population." (emphasis mine)

14) I've also, never seen anyone argue that the "government" pulled it off. By all means i do not believe it to be the government.

You're serious?! The list of websites, books, etc etc claiming that the government did indeed pull this off is simply enormous. Heck, just search this site alone...

1) that site doesn't look very credible =)

So, this jet fuel was so intense that it could melt the central colums of the buildings, but the passport was unscaved? intresting. The hijackers werent even on the official plane roster.

2) Yes, just another unfounded rumor like the link above. If the fire was so hot that it could melt and bend steel, how was there any dna left to examine at all?

3) there have been many different stories about exactly what happened at norad. One thing is certain, they all go against the official story. The official report says that cheney didnt even arrive at norad until 10:10am after the plane had already been shot down. There have been mainstream articles which go against this.

4) Were you?

all i know is 2 engines from the twin towers are touring the world in an exhibit. Yet, the fire in the pentagon was so hot it incinerated 6 tons (i forget exact engine weight) of a titanium alloy and 336,000lbs of plane.

Thate site was a google cached page, which doesnt appear to be credible to any extent. I'm Senseless 04 MD and i say that there were no bodies because the fire was so hot it incinerated (not melt, incinerated, no engine is avalible from the pentagon) the engines =D

5) Sorry, i guess my figures there are off by a large portion. I looked around, couldnt find anymore recent figures.

6) Yes im very serious. People think of the government as a "being" when in all reality its made up primarily of people like you and me. Throw a couple bad apples in and it'll spoil the whole bunch. I believe it to be rogue elements (neo nazis in specific whom are a part of the new world order) within our government trying to rule through fear and chaos. This doesn't mean everyone is evil.





[edit on 28-8-2005 by senseless04]

Originally posted by senseless04
1) that site doesn't look very credible =)

You didn't ask for a credible site. You said "I've never heard anyone argue that the planes werent hijacked." - I simply showed you where people were claiming it. Do I think it's a viable theory? Noooo. Nope. Nyet. Nein. Non.

2) Yes, just another unfounded rumor like the link above. If the fire was so hot that it could melt and bend steel, how was there any dna left to examine at all?

Hmmm..no, you actually do have forensic confirmation there. Not rumour. Realistically, you don't need much material to gather DNA to begin with (and often even less is needed for mitochondrial DNA analysis). There are also witnesses who've reported seeing and carrying (in some cases) body parts.

4) Were you?

No. Then again, I'm not the one saying I didn't see bodies in the Pentagon.

Thate site was a google cached page, which doesnt appear to be credible to any extent.

You're saying the site operated by the National Disaster Medical System isn't credible? Any particular reason why? (or did you just see the "google cache" part?). If you read the whole thing, you'll notice the information was a presentation from a conference held earlier this year. They're not exactly Joe AOL Site.

6) Yes im very serious. People think of the government as a "being" when in all reality its made up primarily of people like you and me. Throw a couple bad apples in and it'll spoil the whole bunch. I believe it to be rogue elements (neo nazis in specific whom are a part of the new world order) within our government trying to rule through fear and chaos. This doesn't mean everyone is evil.

You said: "I've also, never seen anyone argue that the "government" pulled it off". The answer I gave was responding to that statement. Frankly, I think the government in this country is like most places...imperfect, flawed and absolutely fallible, with the constant possibility of corruption going on behind closed doors. That doesn't mean I think "The Government" created 9/11, though there are, obviously, many many people who absolutely do think the "The Government" (as an entity) pulled this off.






[edit on 28-8-2005 by Tinkleflower]

Originally posted by senseless04
So, this jet fuel was so intense that it could melt the central colums of the buildings, but the passport was unscaved? intresting. The hijackers werent even on the official plane roster.

When the volcano erupted at Pompeii, the flow of ash and gas was so hot that when people were caught in it literally caused the moisture to boil out of their tongues in an explosion of water vapor that set into the ash. Yet, in many areas of the city, delicate objects, papers and even wax seals survived.


And anyway, no one has ever claimed that the central core columns were melted.

Originally posted by HowardRoark
When the volcano erupted at Pompeii, the flow of ash and gas was so hot that when people were caught in it literally caused the moisture to boil out of their tongues in an explosion of water vapor that set into the ash. Yet, in many areas of the city, delicate objects, papers and even wax seals survived.

Did you get this from your 'super duper book of useless trivia used to validate or invalidate any 9/11 theory', provided by the NWO of course? Really Howard, it is outstanding that you know of such things. Truly impressive!

Peace

Yeah but this one time, in 10.481 BC this bird flew into a tree, and it tilted instead of progressively collapsing! Thus proofing 9/11 was a set up.

Call Spitzer I think we have a case.

Sometimes I seriously wonder how the human race managed to invent the wheel let alone anything else with this attitude of not using and assimilating information gained from past experiences.

LOL, you have no idea how ridiculous that sounds coming from your mouth.

LOOK! It's Atta's passsport!



That thing is just indestructible!!

If only they'd thought to make the WTC towers out of Atta passports all glued together...they would still be standing today.

[edit on 2005-8-29 by wecomeinpeace]

Originally posted by AgentSmith
Sometimes I seriously wonder how the human race managed to invent the wheel let alone anything else with this attitude of not using and assimilating information gained from past experiences.

nero
hitler
kgb
mi6
cia

very true indeed.

Originally posted by wecomeinpeace
LOOK! It's Atta's passsport!

LMAO!

Originally posted by senseless04

Originally posted by AgentSmith
Sometimes I seriously wonder how the human race managed to invent the wheel let alone anything else with this attitude of not using and assimilating information gained from past experiences.

nero
hitler
kgb
mi6
cia

very true indeed.

I wonder if AgentSmith understands what each of those items represents.

What Nero (Rome's burning) and Hitler (Reichstag Fire) did are especially easily admitted by mainstream history. And we all know the old cliché: history repeats itself. Apparently even right under the very noses of some. But, then again, I suppose that's how it's allowed to repeat in the first place.

'History is the lie agreed upon.' Henry Ford
If history proves anything, it is that there is always more than one side to the story. My findings are that often the popular, accepted version is less plausible than the 'conspiracy'. And feel that the fact most folks agree on one version is far from proof that it is the accurate account. JFK's death is a good example of that, unless of course LHO was just a angry lone gunman, like the very lengthy official inquiry concluded. I feel they were wrong, and that there is far more to the assassination, with ample evidence that supports the existance of a conspiracy.