Drugs?

Should they be legalized or not?

I hope to convince every nay to a yay by the end of this thread.

By drugs, I mean everything.

XAOS

Nay.

in my mind, yes without question.

i will list a few reasons for this.

one, the war on drugs is a drain on tax payer dollars and isnt preventing drugs from getting on the street and into the hands of drug addicts and future addicts.

two, it would remove the criminal element from drugs. no more worries over getting shot because you bought your stash from someone else. no more possiblity of getting killed in a dark alley with some lowlife thug with a semi automatic in the back of his pants who wants to screw you out of your money and give you nothing but a bullet in return. no more drug dealers on corners. criminals wont make money off of drugs anymore and will get caught doing other things they are not use to doing or they'll learn to get a job for a change and stop acting a criminal. when you make it cleaner, safer and cheaper than they sell it for...they're going out of business really quick!!!

three, it can make drugs safer. as it is now criminals and amateur make drugs, they process them in dangerous ways using harmful chemicals. it also presents an opportunity to make drugs less potent/less lethal than they are now so maybe people can be funtional drug users instead of the present condition some people are in. (not all addicts are non functional)

four, you tax it! thats right, tax it. every joint or pack of joints you sell, boom a user tax. since its not a needed thing but something some want to do they should pay the price for their habit. moneys collected could go into REAL drug programs, prevention as well as giving help to those who need it.

five it keeps johnny and suzy Q taxpayer from having a criminal record because of their personal choices. it also frees up space in jails and prisons for REAL criminals and also allows more time for punishing them, not someone who wanted to smoke a joint.

six, i believe it would take away some of the stigma that people who do drugs are bad people. morality is realitive and this is for you to decide. me, i dont care because its what they do in their own house. it gives some a chance to get help without being viewed as "just another crackhead".

seven, it would put drug cartels out of business. no more mafia killings over drugs. no more smuggling!

the government stands to gain more from legalizing all drugs regulating them and taxing them than fighting them. some claim the government already sells drugs....but nothing is being done on this scale.

private companies grow it, make it and sell it. the government collects taxes from it.

i also think people should be able to grow their own plants, peyote, mushrooms if they want.

i havent gone completey indepth about this but i think i've made some decent points and some of the more important points about this.

before anyone jumps the gun about my view and my avatar i want to make it very clear right now i do not use any drugs at all but i do recognize people should have the right to do what they want to themselves. in fact i dont even smoke or drink.

[Edited on 18-8-2003 by ThePrankMonkey]

I think that only pot should be legalized. Here in Canada it's almost* decriminalized (basically you can carry up to 10 grams and all they will do is fine you)




*not "officially"


Isn't Canada a great place to live?

Fantastic points!! Let's legalize drugs indiscriminately, then try to wean society from them like we currently do with cigarettes. A follows B follows C follows A.

Seriously though, the points make sense, but among other things there would have to be controlled use and/ or distribution.

...care to come spend a day in the Psych Wards with me?? Care to come see young people who have smashed themselves up on P?? Blew their minds out and are now blitzed zombies with severe Drug Induced Psychosis and Brain Damage...

Care to come visit the families of clients who couldn't handle life, did some drugs and dove through their apt window 3 stories to the motorway below??

Wanna come help me with the Youth Drug and Alcohol group?? Wanna come meet the 11 year old P-addict pulling tricks for a fix?? Wanna come see that shyte???

Yeah...its all good for a buzz ain't it...if ya don't have to pick up the pieces of course...

Originally posted by Trader
Fantastic points!! Let's legalize drugs indiscriminately, then try to wean society from them like we currently do with cigarettes. A follows B follows C follows A.

Seriously though, the points make sense, but among other things there would have to be controlled use and/ or distribution.

controlling what exactly? people access to them? i think aside from a certain age and up i dont see any point on controlling it any other way. as for distribution, how does any other company distribute their goods? trucks! now you have your answer. now WHERE these things should be sold is another matter. certainly not just anywhere. maybe places like amtersdam has it set up, specific places to grow and sell it. like weed. all other man made drugs would have to be made off site.

but in terms of controlled use....alcohol is legal and some people STILL do not know when to say no. so do you blame what they are using or do you blame them for their lack of common sense and self control? noone says how many cheetos you can eat in a day but we know if you eat too many you get fat and you might get obesity related problems later. those who will be allowed to buy them will be adults...let them act like adults and when they make the wrong choices....punish them for it, like drinking and driving.

i think decriminalizing weed as a starter would be good. its a plant after all! so much ignorance has been fed to us about it that many have a hard time telling "which is up" when it comes to weed.

Originally posted by alien
...care to come spend a day in the Psych Wards with me?? Care to come see young people who have smashed themselves up on P?? Blew their minds out and are now blitzed zombies with severe Drug Induced Psychosis and Brain Damage...

Care to come visit the families of clients who couldn't handle life, did some drugs and dove through their apt window 3 stories to the motorway below??

Wanna come help me with the Youth Drug and Alcohol group?? Wanna come meet the 11 year old P-addict pulling tricks for a fix?? Wanna come see that shyte???

Yeah...its all good for a buzz ain't it...if ya don't have to pick up the pieces of course...

and all this comes from A) people not knowing when to stop B) harmful chemicals being put into these drugs that can be avoided C) drugs being too potent.

christ drink enough alcohol and you can get alcohol poisoning, do we blame booze makers for this??? some might but most do not.

some of this also comes from parents not talking to their kids about drugs sex and other hard topics that need to be faced and dealt with, not ignored. we dont outlaw sex because some teenage girl didnt think she could get pregnant the first time do we? no we try to educate them but that has to start at home. more then likely kids who get into this sort of thing arent being monitored well enough and their parents dont notice until its almost too late or it is too late.

[Edited on 18-8-2003 by ThePrankMonkey]

Ain't that simple though PrankMonkey...for there is NO such thing as a 'Safe Level' of useage that can be applicable across the board.

There is no way of saying "X amount of Y is all good, any more than that is unsafe" For its all individual how ANY substance is gonna affect ya. Also...most don't know if they have anything kicking around their heads like Latent Schizophrenia just waiting to be triggered by a good sesh...ya just never know...

I'll give you an example: One dude I work with has done drugs ONCE...one time...and blam, Drug Induced Psychosis. He was a smart kid, a wise kid, knew the ins and outs and took the risk...did less drugs than everyone else was doing but it didn't matter...one buzz was all it took. So as for unsafe useage, that wouldn't have been applicable to that guy...and he's certainly not the only one.

As for alcohol...shyte...eat enough lettuce and you can poison yourself too...drink enough water and you die...but I'm focussed on the drugs topic right now..

Okay, alien drugs are illegal now, right? And yet you have all these addicts in the hospital? How is the illegality helping keep these folks out? It isnt. The dealers dont give a flying fluck who they sell it too so long as they are getting money. They will pressure these eleven year olds into buying this stuff until they do. And then they use the money to do murderous criminal things (not including selling PCP to kids).

If it was legal, you could put an age limit on it, a doctors perscription, and it wouldnt manner anyway, cause who would fluck themselves up on P, when you could get weed much cheaper and easier. And along with legality you could put more money into drug education, money gotten from the takes on drugs.

Just a couple extra points that PM didnt make.

XAOS

Originally posted by alien
Ain't that simple though PrankMonkey...for there is NO such thing as a 'Safe Level' of useage that can be applicable across the board.

There is no way of saying "X amount of Y is all good, any more than that is unsafe" For its all individual how ANY substance is gonna affect ya. Also...most don't know if they have anything kicking around their heads like Latent Schizophrenia just waiting to be triggered by a good sesh...ya just never know...

I'll give you an example: One dude I work with has done drugs ONCE...one time...and blam, Drug Induced Psychosis. He was a smart kid, a wise kid, knew the ins and outs and took the risk...did less drugs than everyone else was doing but it didn't matter...one buzz was all it took. So as for unsafe useage, that wouldn't have been applicable to that guy...and he's certainly not the only one.

As for alcohol...shyte...eat enough lettuce and you can poison yourself too...drink enough water and you die...but I'm focussed on the drugs topic right now..

well thats the thing, its a personal choice we all make. just like we know smoking isnt good for you but people still do it anyway. drinking isnt good for you people still do it anyway dont they? so why should we have the right to tell others what to do when they're going to do what they want anyway? this is proven by the fact we have an illegal drug trade that practially dwarfs what some corporations gross. but like you said, he took that risk. life is not without risk. i feel sorry for em but they choose to do it and are going to do it regardless what we do or tell them.

you can stay focused on drugs but the concept applies to everything as you have proven, too much of anything is a bad thing.

Alien, if you could regulate the production of drugs, then you would have a lesser risk of poisoning themselves with it, like in your example. And the matter still stands that he got ahold of it, something that would be much harder to do if it was legal.

XAOS

PrankMonkey:
I'm all for personal choice and personal responsibility. Problem comes when you consider not everyone is brilliant and wise like us *snicker*. Human Stupidity Factor comes into it quite a bit. Peeps are gonna mess up, and peeps are gonna make unwise choices...which isn't a problem unless YOU are the one who has to pick up the pieces. When someone is a blunged out headcase they become society's problem. Well...actually NOT society's problem, as the majority of society is sitting in their nice homes pontifficating about the pros and cons of drugs and all protected from viewing and dealing with the harsh realities of them.

Yes, people are gonna do drugs whether they are illegal or not...hell, I did...but I also know people who wanted to, but didn't BECAUSE they were illegal to do...and as far as I'm concerned if them being illegal keep those bros from doing drugs, then all good.

XAOS:
How is making something LEGAL going to make it harder to get??? The drugs he did were fine for everyone else...so a bad trip wasn't the cause. Also, for funding Education etc with proceeds of Legalised Drug Production...ummm...Education and Legalisation are not symbiotic...you CAN do one without the other. How would you fund it?? How about prioritise what the Govt is spending the dosh on for a start. How much is spent on a Jet Fighter?? How many Drug Rehab/Education Centres could be nicely funded with the price tag of just one of them...

[Edited on 18-8-2003 by alien]

all your drugs are belong to me

Originally posted by alien
PrankMonkey:
I'm all for personal choice and personal responsibility. Problem comes when you consider not everyone is brilliant and wise like us *snicker*. Human Stupidity Factor comes into it quite a bit. Peeps are gonna mess up, and peeps are gonna make unwise choices...which isn't a problem unless YOU are the one who has to pick up the pieces. When someone is a blunged out headcase they become society's problem. Well...actually NOT society's problem, as the majority of society is sitting in their nice homes pontifficating about the pros and cons of drugs and all protected from viewing and dealing with the harsh realities of them.

Yes, people are gonna do drugs whether they are illegal or not...hell, I did...but I also know people who wanted to, but didn't BECAUSE they were illegal to do...and as far as I'm concerned if them being illegal keep those bros from doing drugs, then all good.

XAOS:
How is making something LEGAL going to make it harder to get??? The drugs he did were fine for everyone else...so a bad trip wasn't the cause. Also, for funding Education etc with proceeds of Legalised Drug Production...ummm...Education and Legalisation are not symbiotic...you CAN do one without the other. How would you fund it?? How about prioritise what the Govt is spending the dosh on for a start. How much is spent on a Jet Fighter?? How many Drug Rehab/Education Centres could be nicely funded with the price tag of just one of them...

[Edited on 18-8-2003 by alien]

so basically you want to keep people safe from themselves???

consider it a thinning of the herd. darwinism in action if you will. i know that sounds callus but i dont feel this driving urge to keep people from hurting themselves. its still their choice no matter how stupid we think it is. people get killed from power tools, we dont ban power tools. rather we put a gazillion safety and warning stickers on everything.

Originally posted by xaos


If it was legal, you could put an age limit on it, a doctors perscription, and it wouldnt manner anyway, cause who would fluck themselves up on P, when you could get weed much cheaper and easier. And along with legality you could put more money into drug education, money gotten from the takes on drugs.

Just a couple extra points that PM didnt make.

XAOS

You forget that when business becomes involved, profit is the only thing that counts. Tabaco is a perfect example. Do you suggest making drugs available on a prescription basis? What will people do when they want something harder but the doc won't give it to them?

Drugs make ppl have experiences that 1 would not usually have when not on drugs i mean some ppl perform better during sex when on drugs,i am not talking about viagra tha shyte is for old men i mean the real mcoy you know ...

Originally posted by zed

Originally posted by xaos


If it was legal, you could put an age limit on it, a doctors perscription, and it wouldnt manner anyway, cause who would fluck themselves up on P, when you could get weed much cheaper and easier. And along with legality you could put more money into drug education, money gotten from the takes on drugs.

Just a couple extra points that PM didnt make.

XAOS

You forget that when business becomes involved, profit is the only thing that counts. Tabaco is a perfect example. Do you suggest making drugs available on a prescription basis? What will people do when they want something harder but the doc won't give it to them?

mcdonalds is a perferct example of this as well, all companies are there to make a profit from you! what a shocking revelation that must be. companies dont care, society should though. thats why i suggested that tax money be collected from this. to help those who need it to keep from going into the deep end and getting worse. that way they have a safety net they can fall on. as it is now as a drug user you're viewed more as a criminal than a person who needs help and rather than giving them help they will, more often than not, simply lock them up.

rather looking to a company to give a damn, look to your community as a whole to care for each other. companies are only there to sell us things, not coddle us. caring starts within most of all.

and i do believe he is suggesting prescriptions. how can any doctor in good conscience prescribe these things when they are going to harm the patient? (refering to HARD drugs like crack and heroin) i dont believe in that, i believe in letting people think for themselves. this country we live in is getting dumber by the day, why? because people expect others to think for them and the government is deciding for us what we can and cant do, what we should and shouldnt do. what happened to think for yourself? is there something wrong with expecting people to use common sense (or learn what common sense is) and decide for themselves what they want to do? i dont want anyone thinking for me and i'll be damned before i let my government tell me what i can and cant do with my own body in the privacy of my own house.

i believe in thinking for myself, self responsibility, education, making personal decisions and nottelling others how they should live their own lives even if i think its wrong, its still their life.

Sorry PrankMonkey...but I don't see the point about PowerTools. There are many things around that have been hazardous, and lethal, to people...I rcall reading somewhere that people have died from putting 9 volt batteries on their tounge to test if they were still live...but I think banning 9 volt batteries is a little extreme. Besides...I'm not talking about applying restrictions on possibly Hazardous items...I'm talking about not removing restrictions on items that already have a very well documented history of causing extremely negative effects.

Yes - I'm aware that there are drugs out there that have very good medicinal purposes...but I'm also conscious of the whole 'Floodgate Effect'...drop the restrictions on one, and you open up the door for a push to drop it on another, and another, and another.

I don't know if the whole Darwinism point of view is callus...but I do know what I see every working day...I would find it surprising if someone had to deal with that and NOT be affected by it, not feel something for them. Not too sure what you do, or have done...maybe you have worked in Drug Rehab, maybe you have dealt with drug-related suicides and problems, maybe you have had to help pick up the pieces of someones life after being ravaged by drugs...dunno...really can't see how anyone could do that, see that, feel that and then have a "what the hey, their choice, blase blase" opinion about it all.

its not a blase view i hold.

its not that i dont care.

its not that i am cold or callus towards other people suffering.

but at some point you have to decide to let every little thing get to you and make you an emotion wreck or not. seeing so many bad things can only make you think the worst and its a natural reaction. i try to remain as objective as possible because i know getting over emotional will only hurt ME in the long run and skew how i see the world and i dont want that to happen. i am not callus i am just trying to be objective. yes when thats all you do is deal with screwed up people you tend to think "hey drugs are bad" and yes you'd be right, most drugs are bad. they prohibited alcohol, ask anyone old enough what "bathtub gin" is. unregulated alcohol killed and blinded many people because the practice was not overseen and had certain standard adhered to it. however it has been proven than when it is regulated and overseen and it is done in moderation alcohol is not a completely harmful thing. since drugs have never really been regulated in this way we dont know how harmful or not they would really be but i do know that if we keep up with the present situation with this "war on drugs" it wont get better and it hasnt its only gotten worse. so whats to lose? NOTHING! we already have a problem and next to everyone bcoming an addict i dont see how this situation could possibly get worse.

i dont want anyone to suffer from war, i dont want people to suffer from violence or drugs or a million other things that can hurt us but we can only help ourselves first and foremost, we can try to help others and teach them to make better choices but ultimately its up to them to make those choices, we can only give them the tools to make a better decision.

it is still their decision and we should always have compassion for others but people will always do dumb thing to themselves whether they are illegal or not.

i notice especially in america, that the more people have been repressed from doing something the more they do it in excess. its calling rebelling and acting out. humans do not like being told what to do and at some point will do the very trhing they are told not to do, it has been made such into a huge deal and has been such a "Taboo" thing that they wind up doing it and wind up doing it to excess. i've known drug addicts, i've tried to help drug addicts and one person who was very close to me became involved in drugs. more often than not they got into them because of messed up homes and families. they felt their own life was so screwed up they didnt care and did whatever it took to numb that pain they felt. i feel sorry for these people but i cant constantly shed a tear for everyone of them WE as a poeple have to be more caring towards each other and not because of this either. but that was the choice they made and ive known some who made the choice to get cleaned up, its not easy but jsut as easy as it is to start up a habit its just as easy to want to quit, doing it isnt easy but wanting to and choosing to quit is an easy choice to make.

there are many more factors that come into play BEFORE drugs enters the picture.

[Edited on 18-8-2003 by ThePrankMonkey]