Jesus : An invention of princes ?

Okay, I will probably be lynched and hung online with such an idea. But these last days I have this weird idea : "CAN THE JESUS-CHRIST BE ONLY AN INVENTION OF PRINCES, KINGS AND POWERFULL PEOPLE TO HOLD PEOPLES SERVANTS, SLAVES AND WORKERS AND TO LET THEM LIVE HAPPY ABOUT THEM CONDITION BECAUSE OF THE "SACRO-SANCTUS" LAW OF PARADISE AND HELL ?"

Do you follow me ? Do you understand what I mean ? What you think of it ?



[Edited on 15-8-2003 by Nans DESMICHELS]

Nans, I wonder if the recent mention of Nietzsche didn't stir this thought in you, for certainly it accords well with some of Nietzsche's ideas.
I would wish to avoid "invention": I think we are on thin ice if we imagine the ruling classes "created" the Gospel-Christ.
That selective distortions, or unrepresentative focusing on snippets of the Gospels, have been tools of elites to manipulate the masses must, I fancy, be beyond historical dispute -justification of slavery or clerical wealth leap to mind, and few nations can have France's history of the political battle between Church and State, so you will have many examples to hand (I suspect other faiths have been abused in the same way).

Nans in response to your question:
1. The Messiah is prophesied in the Bible with passages that start with Genesis and continue throughout the Old Testament (Daniel, Isaiah, etc.). We shall not delved into Biblical prophesies for the coming of the Messiah. However, these Messianic Prophesies existed for at least a thousand years before the birth of Jesus Christ. The early Christians (Peter, John, Paul, etc.) were able to convince the early Jewish followers that indeed Jesus fulfilled the Messianic Biblical prophesies.
2. The early Christians were �bucking the system� as far as forming a new religion to spread in the Roman world. It was the wrong belief system for that culture. If they were making up a religion for �control of the masses�, they would at least not base such a belief system on a crucified person. In fact very few of the Apostles died natural deaths and some died horrible deaths (crucifixions, stonings, etc.). Not exactly the action you would expect from one who knew his religion to be �made up�. In fact the Apostle Paul did exactly the wrong thing for a man who wanted to control �the masses�. Paul was a Pharisee and a member of the Sanhedrin, these people were a the top of the power structure of Jewish society in the First Century before he became a Christian. If Paul�s only motive was to control �the masses�, he would have stayed exactly in the position which he left rather than joining some �up-start movement�.
3. Many skeptics have claimed that men like Paul, Peter, John, etc. were fictions generated by the Second Century Christian leaders to add legitmaticy to the movement and that these leaders knew that these men were fictions. However again these early Christian fathers pick the wrong religion if they only intended to control people. There were several long established (which was an important factor in the Roman world) religions that could be used for that.
4. In short the early leaders of Christianity were not promoting a belief with which they intended to use to control people (there were many established religions to do that), they were promoting Christianity because they thought it was true.
5. In fact Christianity was well established before the princes and kings took notice of the Faith as something other than some strange Jewish sect or a religion to be stamped out.

That is not to say, that some have not used Christianity for their own agenda. Indeed name one aspect of our society that some one has not misused for their own agenda. How many Christian teenagers are boarding buses with bombs strapped to their bodies? I suppose that all men who become doctors do so only to cure the sick, or that all men who become attorneys do so to protect the rights of the individual, or that all men enter politics so that they can serve the public good.

Do you follow me ? Do you understand what I mean ? What you think of it ?

A good comparison would be the Caste system of India, where people are taught to accept their station in life, and hope for better in the next...according to your theory, if I understand you correctly....

Problem is, accounts of Christ go back far enough, to refute the idea. Invented? No....Utilized? Of course....

It is interesting to see how in western society the power of the church and religion in general have waned with the onset of the age of reason, while the rights of common men/women have slowly gained ground.

I don't doubt the credibility of Christ or his words but he was definately utilised by the few to exploit and control the many.

Jesus is a mythical person who's story is based on the sages/avatars and Buddhas such as: Yeshua, Shakyamuni Buddha, Horus, Tammuz, Tutankhamen, Krishna and the previous Buddhas in general among a few others.
The ancients expected a KRST/Messiah/Saviour every so many years and Yeshua happened to be the one of the Jewish times. Isaiah did predict the coming of an avatar but that doesn't mean that he was literally "Gods son". Isaiah didn't ever say "Jesus" or even "Yeshua". He just knew that a spiritual teacher was coming.

The New Testament Jesus is closely related to the man known as Yeshua who lived around the time of the supposed existence of "Jesus" and is loosely based on his life. I haven't read Josephus' works but I'd bet that he was really describing Yeshua, not the mythical Jesus; unless of course he was part of the Christ Conspiracy.

If you study ancient history and cultures you can see that the trinity and dying/resurrection concepts are much older than "Jesus" and that his story isn't much more than a rip-off of older stories, events and legends. Mary was originally part of the trinity(like Isis/Osiris/Horus) but the Nicene Council changed her to the 'spooky ghost'(I realize that the "Holy Ghost" is really the spiritual energy which underlies All; but got turned into something mysterious by the global elite).
When one goes through hell they come out right if they really learned from it; or, they "die" and become "resurrected" and become KRST(Christ) like. The KRST is a Khemetian(Egyptian) word for one who has gone through the trials and tribulations and then become stronger because of it. The KRST risen which anyone can become.



ONE

[Edited on 16-8-2003 by Tamahu]

Tamahu
Would you like to post some comments supporting your assertions to indicate how Shayki Buddha, Krishna, Horus, etc. are incorporated into what you call the "Jesus story". What you have given us is basically a bunch of assertions which state that some link exists. Yet you give no details as to what these links are or any documentation to support your contentions. In my part of the world this is also called "a lot of hot air".

Its a good question, NANS, though the Jesus myth was probably invenmted as another spin on older solar religions, later utilized to scare and control the masses. Karl Marx refered to religion as the opiate of the masses. Now we have TV. But the idea behind both are the same.
The existance of an actual Jesus remains heavily debated, both sides arguing he did/didnt. religions get invented all the time nowadays to get money from people, look at the people who claim to channel ancient spirits from Atlantis, Ramtha comes to mind. that broad made millions. people will believe anything.

Idoubt though, he was invented for that purpose, but his story and myth later dredged up as a new source of Opium. the Romans couldnt conquer the wild germanic tribes by force, so they conquered them with ideology and assumed holiness.

Although I'm not a Christian - everything I've seen leads me to believe that Jesus actually did exist.
Writings of the day, the discovery of the burial pot of his brother James, integration of the lives of other people who lived back then, and references to his existence by Roman scholars seems to be irrefutable proof that he actually did exist.

Cap this with the actual Christian movement itself and the way it spread and prospered and I would say that Jesus was definitely a real person.

You are correct, Nans, you had a wierd idea. Have you been smoking gnja and talking with juvenile Christian-haters again?

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
You are correct, Nans, you had a wierd idea. Have you been smoking gnja and talking with juvenile Christian-haters again?

A french poet called Jacques PREVERT said something I can translate : "GOD is a fantastic evil !"...
I'm sorry, I dont think the blessing of my soul pass by my faith in an devilish God.

I think it's cause there are so many hypocrits actually, on the churchs, the synagogues and the mosquee that I cant enter there...

HARE KRSHINA ! HARE RAMA !

The SIKHS are the only sinceres believers actually...

[Edited on 17-8-2003 by Nans DESMICHELS]

Writings of the day, the discovery of the burial pot of his brother James, integration of the lives of other people who lived back then, and references to his existence by Roman scholars seems to be irrefutable proof that he actually did exist.

Ah, but then accepting that Mary and Joseph had other children besides Jesus kind of goes against mainstream Christian beliefs, now doesn't it? I have no doubt that there was a historical Jesus....I just think, that like many legends, there's a lot of exaggeration. For example, we found Troy, so does this mean that the story of Paris, the golden apple, and the goddesses is true??? No, and it is the same folly to assume that all of the "miracles" attributed to Jesus, are likewise.

IN support of Tamahu, you will find much

evidence & supporting links by checking out

ESSENES NAZOREAN order
(the volume of material, sooo large)

essenes.crosswinds.net...
~~~~~~

pauls church- rome, pragmatic & social-economic
peters church- othodox, existential & esorteric

(jesus) nazorean, also from nazareth town...

yo!...way complicated for a thumbnail, but,

ya'll been tricked, & youse 'pay' for your heaven

and salvation, to the gatekeepers of religion!!!

Religion is a simple way of explaining right and wrong to simple people. If you don't believe in a higher entity then there is no fear of death. If there is no fear of death, what is their to fear? What is there to stop people from harming others?

It is also an easy way of explaining the unexplainable. However most people have been educated enough that they no longer believe such explanations for things such as the begining of life etc so now we turn to aliens and UFOs etc.

Quote from Tamahu
Jesus is a mythical person who's story is based on the sages/avatars and Buddhas such as: Yeshua, Shakyamuni Buddha, Horus, Tammuz, Tutankhamen, Krishna and the previous Buddhas in general among a few others.

Quote from riffraffalunas

IN support of Tamahu, you will find much

evidence & supporting links by checking out

ESSENES NAZOREAN order
(the volume of material, sooo large)

Again all we see is air. Again no specific web pages, documents, etc. which show the how Shakyamuni Buddha, Krishna, etc. can be related to Jesus. Again all we see are assertions with no specifics. Basically the web site is full of gnostic writings, most of which have been throughly refuted elsewhere. Gentlemen you have proven nothing except you can make assertions without one iota of evidence to support your statements. Where I come from that is called "a lot of hand waving" while still keeping the ballon aloft with hot air. Would you be so kind as to give some details to support your statements.

For example, we found Troy, so does this mean that the story of Paris, the golden apple, and the goddesses is true??? No, and it is the same folly to assume that all of the "miracles" attributed to Jesus, are likewise.

Sorry for my ignorance, but I dont know this story of paris... can you please explain me ?

[Edited on 18-8-2003 by Nans DESMICHELS]

The Trojan War was long thought to be a myth. Featured in Homer's The Illiad...3 goddesses (Athena, Aphrodite, and Artemis) approached Paris of Troy with a contest to pick the most beautiful goddess...and award her with the Golden Apple (see this fascination with apples isn't just a Christian thing, hehe....). Anyways, Aphrodite promised the love of Helen to Paris (who was already married to the King) , if he picked her. He did, and he spirited Helen to Troy, and of course, the Greeks launched for Troy...(this is why Helen is known as the face that launched a thousand ships... )

My point being, that just because there was an actual city of Troy found, it doesn't make the story of the contest of the Goddesses, etc. true...

...had been found ?

Mythology stories are almost philosophical and psychological parabols, like oedipe, aesculapes, icarus...

But did you know that ruins of the icarus maze hade been found in greece ? But no minotaur skeleton...

As, supposedly, was Noah's Ark... So, do I believe that a man could have built a boat, or a giant wooden horse? Sure. Do I believe that this man put two of every animal on board, and rode out a worldwide flood? No...not even Steve Irwin could pull that one off...crickey!!!

Did Jesus exist? Certainly he did, and I am not Christian.

Jesus was the son of God who was crucified for speaking the truth which many did not want to hear at the time or today also.

We are all the sons and daughters of God. Jesus just took what the father told him and did not question. He had very strong faith in the father. The same can be said for many of the others in different religions.

Most have one thing in common. They were all "crucified" for telling the truth.

I watched a preacher on TV just the other night. He was speaking of all this being an illusion. He was right on talking about atoms, protons, neutrons. He also spoke of the powerful force that held all this together, and how fast that force was twirling to hold things together. Then he blew it. He said, "You know who is holding that force together. You know who is making that go so fast? THe answer is Jesus!"

Wrong, the answer is not Jesus. The answer is God the father, the all knowing creator.

I immediately changed channels and guess who was on? The "wonderful" Jerry Falwell who in one sentence spoke of God's love and the next sentence was spitting out fear.

I keep hearing from Thomas Crowne about the Christians being persecuted today. Why are you saying this Thomas? Christianity is wonderful religion if one must have one to keep going.

The only true "religion" and I hate that word because it brings up so many connotations in my heart is the love of the creator God. That is in each one of us.